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I got the 7th edition rulebook and cards and after looking at it very closely and reading this thread I have come to realize the Games Workshop is doing the same thing to to 40k that Blizzard did to World of Warcraft.

They are dumbing the game down so that even little kids can win. The hardest part of the game was strategy and with all this randomness in there a little kid can win just by getting lucky. You can have a veteran player who knows all the ins and outs lose to an 11 yr old who barely understands the rules but randomness rolled in his favor. I stopped playing WoW for this very reason. I think its time to stow away the army for now and wait for GW to get their heads straight. Randomness is good but excessive randomness is lazy game design and at this point is a money grab by removing all strategy and making the game accessible.

I don't agree. Luck has a part ot play, and always has, but veterans should beat "11 year olds" as much as they always did because they have a much better understanding of army choice, odds of success for any given maneuver and target priority.

Not if you're using the tactical objective cards, the game is decided almost exclusively on who draws what cards.

PhantomViper wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 knas ser wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
But before pre-measuring there was an unfair advantage to experienced people who could reliably eyeball distances compared to the n00bs or those with less well developed spacial awareness. With assaulting now it is at least totally random and equally unfair to n00b and veteran alike

I think you just put your finger on something. The game should not be "fair" to noob and veteran alike. Veterans should be better than noobs. A game that is so random you can't get better at it, that is not a game.

He is beng polite - lots of people flat out cheated.............

I play with games that have pre-mesuring and set charge distances and equally happy with that and 40Ks random charge distance - enjoy both

And I'm really sorry about your play experiences since you seem to be surrounded by cheaters, your fixation with them seems to point to some really deep trauma... But those cheaters of yours only cheated while judging charge distances? Because the 2 guys that we have over here that cheated while judging distances also cheat in pretty much every other stage of the game: they fake dice rolls, they accidentally move their models and terrain with their elbows, they move their models more than they are supposed to, they "forget" that a wizzard or psyker didn't roll that power that they really needed that turn (and the powers also seem to change from turn to turn along with some choice wargear), etc.

So unless your argument is that you have some kind of special cheater that only cheats when judging distances (and it appears that your entire meta is composed of these types of players), changing charge ranges from fixed to random doesn't really solve any cheating problem...

Nope my life is just fine thanks - kind of you to ask.............not just me - asked around at the club and pretty common occurance - luvckily I don't have to play those people much these days..................

People cheat - - people don't - I found that the whole pre-measuring things makes people more honest not less.

I play games with both random and set charge - enjoy both and see no major advantage - except perhaps I (and varipous others I was chatting to today) find the random more fun......but hey apparently everyone you play is a paragon of virture - must be heaven

Well I don't agree with your random = fun but I will say that, in terms of your argument, it is really true. Think about it, is it really that hard to eyeball things? You were supposed to estimate the distance before moving anyways. It just meant a more skilled player knows the general range. Heck, you don't even need to mean to cheat. After enough games, you kind of just know the general range. You might miss it sometimes here and there but you are, overall, far more likely to eyeball the range of the charge and shooting than a beginner.

 Flinty wrote:
I don't agree. Luck has a part ot play, and always has, but veterans should beat "11 year olds" as much as they always did because they have a much better understanding of army choice, odds of success for any given maneuver and target priority.

Both right and wrong...
Anyone who is a master of chess would RARELY (insanely small odds) be beaten by a newbie.
There is no randomness, a finite number of move combinations and various known tactics and strategies to be applied.

Army composition in 40k is a game before the game, is akin to rock-paper-scissors or finding the most cost to effectiveness models in the range but has high variability of success.

Then knowing the odds of what the rules favor (like shooting over melee) supports your argument to a small degree but there is SO MUCH randomization that keeps being added.

The degree of influence the veteran player has making meaningful choices to impact the game are having less of an effect when variables that determine a win in the game are also mainly determined by luck. More randomization = less player decision-making impacting the game.

Who gets to go first? It may get a "steal the initiative".
Reserves you roll, outflank, you roll for which side...
Movement through terrain, may get stuck and distance is variable...
"Mysterious terrain" nuff said...
Variable objectives...
Even getting off a Psy ability, rolling much dice...
Better to strip off hull points, penetrating hits are another layer of variation...
Re-rolls and templates are gold for better results.

I guess it is just tiring to see every choice in the game seems to hinge on a roll of the dice.
It seems more geared toward gambling fanatics than strategists.

I look at the fun of X-wing and really how little rolling is involved, the contrast is rather impressive.

I love the randomness.

More randomness, and silliness, the better

Here it is, hello 7th. Watch the Imperium take on the forces of Chaos. This game has unbound, battled forged, summonings, fails and epicness. This game took 8 and a half hours to play through but I can assure you of two things: 1. we had a lot of fun and 2. no Overlords were harmed in the making of this film. Well, at least not much.

 loki old fart wrote:
Here it is, hello 7th. Watch the Imperium take on the forces of Chaos. This game has unbound, battled forged, summonings, fails and epicness. This game took 8 and a half hours to play through but I can assure you of two things: 1. we had a lot of fun and 2. no Overlords were harmed in the making of this film. Well, at least not much.

I don't suppose there is somewhere to watch the whole 8&1/2 hour game, rather than turn recaps?

 Jaceevoke wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
Here it is, hello 7th. Watch the Imperium take on the forces of Chaos. This game has unbound, battled forged, summonings, fails and epicness. This game took 8 and a half hours to play through but I can assure you of two things: 1. we had a lot of fun and 2. no Overlords were harmed in the making of this film. Well, at least not much.

I don't suppose there is somewhere to watch the whole 8&1/2 hour game, rather than turn recaps?

Go and ask them on you tube. That's where I found it.