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 Breotan wrote:
Looking like its time to let this thread sleep with the fishes.

I don't like the idea that one poster can intentionally tank a thread they happen not to like.

WayneTheGame wrote:
The fact a typical 40k game takes like half a day to complete should be seen as a bad thing, not a good thing.

Epic's rules were streamlined for exactly that reason, due to the number of things you had on the board and nuances of a large-scale wargame.

Right now my hobby reading time has been spent on articles, magazines and books related from miniature wargaming published from 1955 to 1975, the "founding" of the modern miniature wargaming hobby and the time when HG Well's Little Wars and it's derivatives finally spread to a much larger audience. And from there, the development of a wide variety of rules and conventions.

The same discussions are in those publications. About how your rules and your scope need to line up. And how people may want to use a rules set that concerns itself with the position of each individual soldier to fight a full sized battle, and how that path leads to wasted weekends and exasperated hobbyists as they struggle both to find the time and the money for huge collections of figures.

So what was the solution? In the late 50s and early 60s Joe Morschauser and Dr. Gerry Gre began advocating the use of smaller scale miniatures (40mm and 54mm were standard at the time and they advocated 18mm and 25mm) and pioneered both the movement tray and the practice of permanently fixing multiple figures on single base elements.

Just like Epic or Flames of War or a million other games that people have come up with since when they wanted a game meant to handle battles rather than skirmishes.

GW is running into the exact same problem of rules publishers of the late 50s and early 60s who insisted on high model counts in large scales, all individually based. Where are they now? Even miniature gaming history enthusiasts like myself can barely list them. The ones we can list like Featherstone, Grant, Morschauser, Bath, Scruby, Barker, etc., all ended up embracing the notion that the scope of the game and the scale of the figures and how they are based should be done in an appropriate fashion. Featherstone was pretty much the GW of his day, amassing a personal fortune in publishing rules and selling figures for those rules, working closely with Scruby and Bath to turn wargaming into a viable business. They accomplished bringing UK style miniature wargaming to many other places in the world, with their greatest success being in the United States.

40k needs to either throw the rules out and have 8th edition or whatever be a total revamp like 2nd to 3rd edition was, or they need to stop this nonsense of encouraging larger and larger collections.

Or publishers that get it will beat out GW by using the same figure count GW did when they grew from a UK based importer of D&D to a worldwide miniature company.

 azreal13 wrote:
How are you not bored of talking about this?

We have been having the same conversation over and over for months, there has been no new information and we have already discussed how the UK, where I and GW are based, are not the US or even Europe.

I'm done, I guess I'll see you when the EOY report is published, perhaps try talking about some wargaming on this here wargaming site in the meantime huh?

It's the dark truth of how to win arguments on the Internet. Pick a position, and do not budge. Eventually, your opponents will grow sick of talking with you, and you can declare victory.

I think they're both partly right, It won't be one thing that brings GW down. GW is bleeding customers at a time when they need cashflow.
The economy is making people look for the best value, when parting with their leisure money.

WayneTheGame wrote:

Epic's rules were streamlined for exactly that reason, due to the number of things you had on the board and nuances of a large-scale wargame.

Epic Armageddon has extremely good rules and they fit into around 20 pages of A4. 40K has rules that are about 6 times as long yet produce a markedly inferior game, in essence the rules are far too complex yet the game is far too simple.

At this stage the only thing that will save 40K is if the rules were completely rewritten, ideally with an extended 'open beta' period to allow the community to playtest them to destruction. Attempting to use rules that were originally designed for a table top RPG in an 'epic' style game is never going to work well. This will never happen with the current management, or if it does happen it will be too little too late.

In an ideal world there would be 2 tiers of 40k, an indepth skirmish game like 2nd and a large scale 'epic' game like 7th is supposed to be. I would also like to see 6mm Epic resurrected (properly!). Again, this will never happen but it would allow 40K to appeal to a very wide wargaming audience.

 Palindrome wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

Epic's rules were streamlined for exactly that reason, due to the number of things you had on the board and nuances of a large-scale wargame.

Epic Armageddon has extremely good rules and they fit into around 20 pages of A4. 40K has rules that are about 6 times as long yet produce a markedly inferior game, in essence the rules are far too complex yet the game is far too simple.

At this stage the only thing that will save 40K is if the rules were completely rewritten, ideally with an extended 'open beta' period to allow the community to playtest them to destruction. Attempting to use rules that were originally designed for a table top RPG in an 'epic' style game is never going to work well. This will never happen with the current management, or if it does happen it will be too little too late.

In an ideal world there would be 2 tiers of 40k, an indepth skirmish game like 2nd and a large scale 'epic' game like 7th is supposed to be. I would also like to see 6mm Epic resurrected (properly!). Again, this will never happen but it would allow 40K to appeal to a very wide wargaming audience.

To be honest I'd like (never happen, but stil) something like 30-40mm for a skirmish/company 40k game and like 15mm for the large-scale battle. I played a tiny bit of Epic and 6mm was way too tiny IMO.

 loki old fart wrote:

The economy is making people look for the best value, when parting with their leisure money.

Does it though? Leisure activities tend to be fairly resilient to economic conditions (within reason). People will of course look for the best value in general and this is what is exactly hurting GW, I don't think that the economy really has much to do with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WayneTheGame wrote:

To be honest I'd like (never happen, but stil) something like 30-40mm for a skirmish/company 40k game and like 15mm for the large-scale battle. I played a tiny bit of Epic and 6mm was way too tiny IMO.

28mm for Skirmsh/platoon level games, 15mm for Company level games and 6mm for army level games. That's my favoured scale anyway.

 Palindrome wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

The economy is making people look for the best value, when parting with their leisure money.

Does it though? Leisure activities tend to be fairly resilient to economic conditions (within reason). People will of course look for the best value in general and this is what is exactly hurting GW. I don't think that the economy really has much to do with it.

People do look for value everyday. When money is tight, people are far more discerning, to the extent that something that is only marginally good value will be dropped in favor of things perceived to be of more value.

Had a look at this set of three books yesterday.

Games Workshop has no future, by the look of the price and the quality of the spin.

When you see it, you'll be impressed by the pretty box, but then you have to open the book and the Emperor wears no cloths. LGS owner doesn't have a lot of faith in it to the point that he's only going to get a couple, and pray that those Board games can soak up the losses. On a good note, There is a serious going on for all things Zombicide, which has me slightly regretting selling my gear when I did. I could have made bank on it around here, They didn't even know about the KS figures.

The larger figures are being seen as more of a running joke to the game, BTW. People are fed up and the lie has worn thin when you can't even buy a squad set and play a simple base game with something out of the box.

The streamlined rules set is offset by this years price-gouge, which word on the street is- it will be the worst one yet. (Finecrap is gone, but not the fineprice.)

If current trends continue, I'll be selling My GW stuff and cutting it down substantially this year.


Couple of weeks, You'll know what I'm talking about.

 Elemental wrote:
I don't like the idea that one poster can intentionally tank a thread they happen not to like.

Err... when did I say that I didn't like the topic?

I just acknowledge a headwind for their business and happen to agree with the concept of reducing their costs. It could be entirely coincidental that they are doing this cost cutting when they are and I'm giving no credit to management.

 Elemental wrote:
It's the dark truth of how to win arguments on the Internet. Pick a position, and do not budge. Eventually, your opponents will grow sick of talking with you, and you can declare victory.

Umm no.. He posed questions and I answered them. Saying that the business is cyclical doesn't mean that how the company is run doesn't matter. If they overextend themselves, it can mean the death of a business. So management most certainly does matter.

The issue here is that I just fail to see how their failure to run a facebook page is going to materially impact their business more than changes in disposable income. I think it's immaterial to running their business.

 loki old fart wrote:

 Palindrome wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

The economy is making people look for the best value, when parting with their leisure money.

Does it though? Leisure activities tend to be fairly resilient to economic conditions (within reason). People will of course look for the best value in general and this is what is exactly hurting GW. I don't think that the economy really has much to do with it.

People do look for value everyday. When money is tight, people are far more discerning, to the extent that something that is only marginally good value will be dropped in favor of things perceived to be of more value.

And yes they do.

We have had some interesting comments and a lot of them are things that those people who had the wisdom to say topics such as one example,... the global economy affecting our buying power.

Others have commented on what is popular in miniatures/board games and the increases of revenue.

And so on.

What I think most would agree is that Games Workshop has got such a negative brand on their IP's due to their own actions that only mostly those who are truly hardcore/and or have the disposable will continue to play this game.

The rest of us have just stopped playing due to....

1. Lousy Rules
2. The cost of playing the game. Too damned high.
3. The perceived arrogance (true or not) of the management of said company.

Some of us did indeed vote with our wallets. Some of us have access to the marketing publications to see the trends on what is hot and what is not. Some of us watch and read the financials.... carefully....

You should really listen to those professionals that are in here because they have that certain inside within their sphere of influence. Already mentioned who they are. Do not need to mentioned them again.

Like pieces to a puzzle you can get the correct to the question at hand.


It has been an interesting read so far on this thread so I hope it continues a bit more.

dereksatkinson wrote:

 Elemental wrote:
I don't like the idea that one poster can intentionally tank a thread they happen not to like.

Err... when did I say that I didn't like the topic?

I just acknowledge a headwind for their business and happen to agree with the concept of reducing their costs. It could be entirely coincidental that they are doing this cost cutting when they are and I'm giving no credit to management.

He didn't quote you, wonder why you think he was referring to you?

 Elemental wrote:
It's the dark truth of how to win arguments on the Internet. Pick a position, and do not budge. Eventually, your opponents will grow sick of talking with you, and you can declare victory.

Umm no.. He posed questions and I answered them. Saying that the business is cyclical doesn't mean that how the company is run doesn't matter. If they overextend themselves, it can mean the death of a business. So management most certainly does matter.

The issue here is that I just fail to see how their failure to run a facebook page is going to materially impact their business more than changes in disposable income. I think it's immaterial to running their business.

Didn't ask you a single question, neither did anyone else that I saw, you just used my post to write what you wanted to, and didn't tie it to the topic at all.

Again.

dereksatkinson wrote:

 Elemental wrote:
I don't like the idea that one poster can intentionally tank a thread they happen not to like.

Err... when did I say that I didn't like the topic?

I just acknowledge a headwind for their business and happen to agree with the concept of reducing their costs. It could be entirely coincidental that they are doing this cost cutting when they are and I'm giving no credit to management.

 Elemental wrote:
It's the dark truth of how to win arguments on the Internet. Pick a position, and do not budge. Eventually, your opponents will grow sick of talking with you, and you can declare victory.

Umm no.. He posed questions and I answered them. Saying that the business is cyclical doesn't mean that how the company is run doesn't matter. If they overextend themselves, it can mean the death of a business. So management most certainly does matter.

The issue here is that I just fail to see how their failure to run a facebook page is going to materially impact their business more than changes in disposable income. I think it's immaterial to running their business.

No! bad nooby. Go sit in the corner and right on your piece of paper 1000 times. "I will not be that guy"

We are not talking about a goram Facebook page. We are talking about a company that has basically disengaged itself from its customers. Most companies spend insane amounts of money to find out what the customer is thinking, how their products are being received (other than through sales figures), and what customer expectations are.

I worked for a fortune 50 computer company for 6 years before I found out I was loosing my soul and went back to the military (ask my wife about the 60% pay cut that she is still not happy about). We spent MILLIONS to get a pulse on what our customers thought, and even more on what the people who were not buying our products thought. Now can GW afford that kind of campaign? Nope not even a little. Are there ways to do something like this with a lot less money? Yep.

Social media is a thing and its only getting bigger. For a company to turn its back is ludicrous beyond comprehension, and honestly the management team are not being good shepards of the stock holders money.

You say its the economy. I call BS. I see a company with its collective hands over its ears singing "Nana nana poopoo I can't hear you!" In a time of resurgance in gaming where board games cost $90+ how on earth is GW not booming? How are companies like PP stepping up there Con presence? How is Mantic crushing records with there KS? How are folks like Strong Hold Games, and MTG making it rain? I'll answer it for you because you are gonna get all OCD and quote me exchange rates between China and Argentina during the monsoon months of Japan. The answer is all of these companies realize that the CUSTOMER is the most important thing a business has and they darn well take that seriously.

Now off to the corner with you and scan in the page when your done with your time out.

I bought a new book of miniature game rules this week.

It was NOT 40k 7th edition.

My regular group of buddies and I number six. Only one of us has bought the rules.

Make of that what you will.

dereksatkinson wrote:

The issue here is that I just fail to see how their failure to run a facebook page is going to materially impact their business more than changes in disposable income. I think it's immaterial to running their business.
.

Lol, how'd I miss this.

Further evidence that while you may possess certificates that say you know something about how stockmarkets work, you have no fething clue about running a company.

Please, for the love of rolling dice, just ignore (or Ignore) him.

Sooner or later this thread will be closed if this level of acrimony continues.

Azrael - how many times have you said that you are done arguing with him?

Well, then don't argue with him!.

I agree, he is looking at a single tree, and declaring it a forest - but it really does take two to make an argument. (Which is why I work for the abuse department - much easier logistics. The arguments department requires much greater use of resources.)

So.... Yeah... GW is in trouble, and given that the new edition of their best selling game does not appear to fix what most people, or at least a large and vocal minority, consider the games greatest problems... I do not know how well they will perform in the next few years.

They have a very nice property - but are exploiting it poorly. At a time when they need to reach out they are instead digging a hole and pulling it in behind them.

They need allies, but are already in siege mentality - and are blaming everything else for their own mistakes.

When I heard of 7th edition, I was hoping that it was to address the problems that beset 6th... instead.... oi!

The Auld Grump

 azreal13 wrote:

dereksatkinson wrote:

The issue here is that I just fail to see how their failure to run a facebook page is going to materially impact their business more than changes in disposable income. I think it's immaterial to running their business.
.

Lol, how'd I miss this.

Further evidence that while you may possess certificates that say you know something about how stockmarkets work, you have no fething clue about running a company.

Agreed. I work for a small business in a niche market and I am about to personally start a facebook page to try and increase sales through interaction with our customers. Since the majority of new customers use the net first, I think such a small allocation of my time will result in a positive interaction with sales.

Do I think the current economic climate has something to do with lower sales, sure. Am I going to use any available tool to try and change this? yes.

The fact that you and GW do not get this point means that you are of the same mind business wise.

azrael13 I salute you for the best post ever

"Purple dinosaur, pineapple, plinth. "

I loled hard!

If I closed my facebook page and blog, my publisher would slap me silly for being a total moron. Free ways to advertise are necessary. GW seems to only want word of mouth, but then they alienate their veterans and other customers so that word of mouth won't be positive.

Either there's an insanely genius plan behind all of this or....

Spartan games were very open about the release of dystopian wars 2.0 and where talking with the fans a ton on their official forums as well as getting those fans to playtest the game thoroughly and give feedback. SG then used that feedback.

Dyst wars 2.0 has now outsold 7th ed, which arrived with all of a week or twos warning, 7 to 1 through FLGS channels here in Oz.
Clearly one method is better than the other.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Please, for the love of rolling dice, just ignore (or Ignore) him.

Sooner or later this thread will be closed if this level of acrimony continues.

Azrael - how many times have you said that you are done arguing with him?

Well, then don't argue with him!.

I agree, he is looking at a single tree, and declaring it a forest - but it really does take two to make an argument. (Which is why I work for the abuse department - much easier logistics. The arguments department requires much greater use of resources.)

I didn't say I wouldn't continue the 'discussion' in fact I said almost the compete opposite. What I refused to do was retread old ground, but apparently my lack of participation wasn't sufficient to stop the discussion until I posted literal nonsense (hence my purple dinosaur comment.)

I'm happy to keep moving things forward, what I'm unprepared to do is have the same conversation for approximately the third time. Unfortunately, Derek seems to have a limited repertoire and the determination to execute regardless.

 azreal13 wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Please, for the love of rolling dice, just ignore (or Ignore) him.

Sooner or later this thread will be closed if this level of acrimony continues.

Azrael - how many times have you said that you are done arguing with him?

Well, then don't argue with him!.

I agree, he is looking at a single tree, and declaring it a forest - but it really does take two to make an argument. (Which is why I work for the abuse department - much easier logistics. The arguments department requires much greater use of resources.)

I didn't say I wouldn't continue the 'discussion' in fact I said almost the compete opposite. What I refused to do was retread old ground, but apparently my lack of participation wasn't sufficient to stop the discussion until I posted literal nonsense (hence my purple dinosaur comment.)

I'm happy to keep moving things forward, what I'm unprepared to do is have the same conversation for approximately the third time. Unfortunately, Derek seems to have a limited repertoire and the determination to execute regardless.

That is why there is an Ignore function - you know that you won't get anything new out of discussing things with him, so why bother?

Ah, well....

We shall see in a few weeks how the EoY report comes out - but meanwhile, I continue to be part of the problem for GW; I play other games, instead of Warhammer or WH40K.

Hell, these days I don't have enough time for all the games that I do enjoy playing. (I love Deadzone... but have played a total of four games since I got the box....)

The Auld Grump

My prediction for the next financial report:

Total revenue for the year of 121 million pounds. Total profit of 15 million pounds. Basically a continuation of their previously report results amounting to around a 12% reduction in revenue and a 25% reduction in profit compared with the previous year. And a slightly worsening cash position as they continue to invest in restructuring and closing and opening retail locations looking for the right location and staff to make them stick.

The area I'm most likely to be wrong is that I'm underestimating just how much money they've saved cutting admin staff when they closed various regional HQs over the last six months or so. If they see the benefits of that restructuring in this reporting period, their profit might only decline in proportion to their revenue rather than at twice the rate.

Basically I'm guessing that despite launching a new edition and doing everything they can to sell more and more product direct for better margins, they're still going to see a decline both in revenue and profit. Possibly a large one. I do not think they will report a loss in this period. Their current job ad for a full time position to analyze which sales channels different products are allocated to makes be believe they are doubling down on direct only and we'll see an even larger (ever growing) portion of GW products no longer available to independent partners at trade discount. Their customer sales experience analyst position also leads me to believe they will continue to double down on their single employee store model and will have increased expenses from opening them at a faster rate than closing them in a shot gun blast approach, hoping some of the pellets stick in a good target and result in a profitable store.


.

 azreal13 wrote:
We've actually seen a LOT of change from GW recently, just not perhaps enough in the areas that matter to us as wargamers.

We've seen multi purchases earning a discount, digital editions at cheaper price points etc etc.

There are signs that they are slowly realising their somewhat unconventional approaches weren't earning them enough cash and simultaneously were earning them the ire of their customer base, which was only going to hurt them further.

Total change will take time, and the retirement/redundancy/leaving of certain key personnel, but I see another one or two underwhelming reports as a good thing, as it will send the only message that GW will hear - that the way they do business is not working, not making money, and they need to change it.

I will actually be MORE optimistic for the long term future of GW and 40K if the FYE report shows they're still a good bit down, year in year, and so will have to keep trying to improve, rather than return to being lazy and complacent.

Agreed.

 azreal13 wrote:
Further evidence that while you may possess certificates that say you know something about how stockmarkets work, you have no fething clue about running a company.

I've been looking for jobs recently, and the amount of times I've come across positions screaming for new media/social media editors to get their message out across the web is crazy. Everyone wants this - even 2-bit one-location fashion stores want a Facebook site or a Twitter manager to get the word out.

But no... I'm sure it's "the economy" that's causing it all, a bit like how "minimum wage" is the reason why some Oz prices are 200% that of US prices.

You guys do know that GW has a Facebook page for each store as well as a general GW page don't you?

Each store can have a FB page at the manager's discretion. As for their company wide page, I know they deleted it when they tried to IP bully a small author doing a charity project for wounded veterans and they got a lot of hate for it. Did they start it up again?

There's an automatically generated page for FB, but no actual FB page that someone posts to.

No, they have a page for each store that is as disconnected from GW HQ as possible and the actual GW page was taken down over a year ago after the backlash from the Spots the Space Marine debacle.

Since then they have shut down the FW, BL and digital editions pages because 'they where too popluar' and, more recently, the Evy Metal one because... reasons?

The point is if I have feedback to give GW I can now only get it as far as a storefront employee and it will not go further than that, nor will he have the power to do anything about it.

And with one man stores... the likelihood of that one man finding time to create and update a FB page.. most likely on his own time...?

The Auld Grump

The buying of luxury items does go against economic trends, but it's more like people going to the cinema, eating out or making other occasional feel good purchases. I don't think a poor economy encourages people to undertake an ongoing high cost investment, which is what GW demand in their games. Further, people buying luxuries still want value for money, and GW don't stack up well against their competitors. If the global economy was driving GW that much then why are so many gaming companies doing so well while GW continue a trend of flat lining? The only thing GW have got going for them is that they have been historically very popular so have a large player base and are easy to find in any gaming shop. If they lose that ubiquitous player base and ease of accessibility they are in huge trouble.

Then there's simply the problem that they are an unfriendly and impersonal company that fail to make the customer valued. Many people find their stores a chore to go in. Most don't offer gaming facilities so can't create a community. They're just a storefront to push product. But when you can get the same product, sometimes cheaper, from independent stores that offer a lot more opportunity to play, just why go to GW? Instead of offering inducements to go to their stores, such as gaming facilities or a reward points system, they use 'exclusive' products force players to theirs shops and website. I don't think people respond that well to that when there's no reason to be enamoured of the company. They are more likely to give it a miss.

GW don't do anything to communicate with the customer or build any feelgood factor with the community. They've closed their forums, Facebook, Twitter and various other pages. All that remain are Facebook pages for individual stores, not the actual company. There's a lot of bad publicity about GW on hobby sites because of their poor product (finecast) and their absurd IP aggression. Their response is to hide and close down their public face to the world, their Facebook and Twitter pages. It all feeds back to the same attitude expressed when one of their directors described 'buying GW' as one of the favourite activities of their hobbyists. They just see their customers as cash machines, they don't see a community that needs to be respected, nurtured and interacted with in order to thrive.

I just can't get my head around how anti social their approach is in an increasingly interconnected world where social media is an everyday thing. They've just released a new edition of the game which will force people into choosing whether to stay or leave. Seems a slightly dangerous proposition to me but GW seems to think their customers will not stop buying and an expensive new set of rule books is money in the bank. We'll see.

GW seems to be concerned about why people aren't buying, perhaps they should be more concerned about why people aren't playing... The rules are constantly flawed and unedited, the models are cheaper online than they are from GW stores, and everyone is turning to games like FoW, Malifaux and Warmahordes because its often easier and cheaper... People are getting smarter with how they spend, and why... I myself have collected over the last 20 years and have more than enough to satisfy my urges (even with the constant unit requirements each new codex has ensured), there is no need to visit my local GW store except to buy touch up paints... Lately I have lost loads of interest, started with flyers then 6th edition turned to chaos with the forceful melding of epic and apoc rules, 7th (2nd ed redux attempt) is now just a bunch of mumbo jumbo, mixed ideas and more FAQ complication and OP list writing... The closing down of Eavy Metal was stupid, I was a frequent poster there, and despite some anger at the recent spamming (which happens on every group) and links to kickstarters (which I think were mainly facebook interest related ad spam anyway) I found the site very informative and a great way to connect with modellers and painters outside of my local gaming group... Now that's its been axed I have also lost some interest in painting and displaying GW models...


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I'll continue to back GW as I think the products are amazing, but if they don't start acknowledging their fan base and the needs of the masses then they'll have to start considering how to continue selling their product to annoyed and frustrated nerds... We have a large disposable income, they know this, have for years and years, they should not try to bite the hand that feeds them...