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Release of a new edition is a cash grab that forces players to stump up to continue playing the same game as last week, or get off the GW release carousel. If customers don't buy into the new product in bulk it'll leave GW in a tight spot, lots of unsold stock and a customer base that is less interested in keeping up with the current releases.

Okay. I'm pretty sure I've taught myself how to think like GW management. This is scary but rather fun.

FLGSs/Independent "Stockists" from GW's management's eyes cost them money:

1. They get a cut of the sales.
2. They cost money to cater to and take orders from.
3. Some of them can sell online for a discount, which is directly undercutting us.
4. They provide a gateway/introduction into non-GW modeling supplies and games, so they are a business risk.
5. F' it, we don't need em!

Think about it. Kirby is a 63 year old man. I don't know what that is in UK years, but over here in 'murica that's getting close to "Bats**t Insane Old Man" territory, where you become moderately xenophobic, everything has to be your way, and you completely lose the filter between brain and mouth. It's gonna be his way or the highway, and this is how he thinks, and has always thought. I remember going into the comic book store I bought my first 40k models from in 1994 and seeing the guy running the place on the phone, pissed off at GW for making him stock a bunch of stuff he would have a hard time selling. I have *NEVER* known a FLGS that didn't hate dealing with GW, and it's because GW treats them as competition.

So I think this is it. I think they are marching towards direct sales only, which, to them, is a dream situation. Next step: regional shutdown of second-party retailers.

My only question is, is that legal here in the US? For example, if they put in a GW store in Baltimore, could they then stop selling to all FLGSs in Baltimore? Or are there laws that prevent that as some type of discrimination or monopolistic practice? I honestly have no idea.

 Wayshuba wrote:

I personally believe the next period financials are actually going to be pretty bad. This is why we saw the rushed 7th edition release and higher than normal dividend (20 pence per share versus 16 pence normal) being announced prior to the financial period reporting. My bet is GW has crossed the threshold at this point and you are going to see more of this panicked behavior as they try to stem the inevitable mass exodus of customers.

July will be an interesting month.

They could stop selling to FLGs if they didn't sell to anyone else. I wouldn't make sense to do that in a country as large as the USA, they simply do not have the coverage.

I doesn't make allot of sense commercially anyway. Selling to stores and distributors generates imediate bulk cashflow rather than slower cash generation through in house stores. All firms chase cash ASAP. Also by enabling discounters the have enabled a two tiered regular (premium in their eyes?) and budget (10-30% off) scenario to meet the demands of the varied consumer demands that exist. Much like Cereal companies will sell their own products but also make a supermarket own brand product.

 notprop wrote:
They could stop selling to FLGs if they didn't sell to anyone else. I wouldn't make sense to do that in a country as large as the USA, they simply do not have the coverage.

I doesn't make allot of sense commercially anyway. Selling to stores and distributors generates imediate bulk cashflow rather than slower cash generation through in house stores. All firms chase cash ASAP. Also by enabling discounters the have enabled a two tiered regular (premium in their eyes?) and budget (10-30% off) scenario to meet the demands of the varied consumer demands that exist. Much like Cereal companies will sell their own products but also make a supermarket own brand product.

I agree, I don't think they could/would do it cold turkey. However, I think wherever they can, they'll cut out other online retailers and then target regions to make all sales direct.

 azreal13 wrote:


That's very easy spin.

7th is outselling 6th, sure, but at what point in 6th's life cycle? Has 7th outsold 6th on launch weekend figures, or last weekend's?

Very easy to make a point without lying and still be massively deceiving, time will tell.

Yeah, it sounds like when Microsoft boasted how Windows Vista was outselling XP release...

Backfire wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:


That's very easy spin.

7th is outselling 6th, sure, but at what point in 6th's life cycle? Has 7th outsold 6th on launch weekend figures, or last weekend's?

Very easy to make a point without lying and still be massively deceiving, time will tell.

Yeah, it sounds like when Microsoft boasted how Windows Vista was outselling XP release...

Windows Vista did outsell XP because the Federal Gov moved the majority of their systems over to Vista (I was working in the computer industry at the time and found it hilarious).

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Release of a new edition is a cash grab that forces players to stump up to continue playing the same game as last week, or get off the GW release carousel. If customers don't buy into the new product in bulk it'll leave GW in a tight spot, lots of unsold stock and a customer base that is less interested in keeping up with the current releases.

Just take the fight to GW.

Their digital dexes are where you can hit them really hard. I have 3 friends iPads on my apple ID, dexes cost me $15 now. One apple ID can support up to 10 devices. GW or Apple cant do gak to stop you.

I am thinking of starting up a French army for FoW so I knocked up a 1750 point list (tournament standard) and it came to £140 from Wayland and Forged in Battle. That's for an infantry company with 11 platoons in total (including 3 full infantry and 2 tank platoons), or in other words a horde army. Yes its 15mm and yes there are less individual bases on the table but that's completely irrelevant.

When you can get a full tournament ready army for a fraction of the cost of even a small 40K army its no wonder that people are turning away from 40K. In such a situation the only thing that GW could do is to build a very strong community and have excellent rules. Oops.

 slowthar wrote:
Okay. I'm pretty sure I've taught myself how to think like GW management. This is scary but rather fun.

FLGSs/Independent "Stockists" from GW's management's eyes cost them money:

1. They get a cut of the sales.
2. They cost money to cater to and take orders from.
3. Some of them can sell online for a discount, which is directly undercutting us.
4. They provide a gateway/introduction into non-GW modeling supplies and games, so they are a business risk.
5. F' it, we don't need em!

That was a good laugh, thanks ; )

I'm pretty sure that's exactly the logic driving this thinking. - See also GW's actions in the various international trade restricitons.

And I'd like to hope that, at the very least, most independent stores are working under the assumption that GW is going to continue trying to pull the rug out underneath them.

Someone theorized earlier that GW is run by Cocaine addicts and this is all to feed their addiction. More and more evidence it starting to support this.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Release of a new edition is a cash grab that forces players to stump up to continue playing the same game as last week, or get off the GW release carousel. If customers don't buy into the new product in bulk it'll leave GW in a tight spot, lots of unsold stock and a customer base that is less interested in keeping up with the current releases.

Just take the fight to GW.

Their digital dexes are where you can hit them really hard. I have 3 friends iPads on my apple ID, dexes cost me $15 now. One apple ID can support up to 10 devices. GW or Apple cant do gak to stop you.

I'm sure they're crying rivers of blood over the fact that you bought their Codex.

Mymearan wrote:I'm sure they're crying rivers of blood over the fact that you bought their Codex.

The funny thing is they probably really are, because they're not raking in as much as they could be from Ravenous (I get the feeling that he's sharing books among friends and not paying full RRP for them either). That's the entire reason why they're trying to cut out independent retailers, after all: it isn't good enough to buy their product, it has to be direct from them and at full retail so they get to pocket all of it. If they make one penny less they get sore.

 darefsky wrote:

Backfire wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:


That's very easy spin.

7th is outselling 6th, sure, but at what point in 6th's life cycle? Has 7th outsold 6th on launch weekend figures, or last weekend's?

Very easy to make a point without lying and still be massively deceiving, time will tell.

Yeah, it sounds like when Microsoft boasted how Windows Vista was outselling XP release...

Windows Vista did outsell XP because the Federal Gov moved the majority of their systems over to Vista (I was working in the computer industry at the time and found it hilarious).

Closer to a parity than a majority - the IRS was among the government departments that decided to give Vista a pass.

A fair number of Naval shipyards were also among those that skipped it (their computers tend to run a few generations behind - they were lucky that they could run XP...).

In the case of the government those groups that did not 'upgrade' had more to do with how antiquated their equipment was than the merits (or lack thereof) of Vista. It costs a lot of money to upgrade that many computers....

For what it is worth, the IRS agent that was talking about how old their computers were forever changed my mental image of the IRS...short, chubby, balding, incredibly happy, wearing a Hawaiian print shirt and cutoff shorts - in the office. I am glad as heck to have met the fellow - sometimes the shattering of a stereotype is a wonderful thing. (And, my, how he went on about the need to enter a ten character code into a space for eight characters - he had to enter part of the sequence, save, then call up another program to modify the sequence.... complaining about all of it in this chirrupy, happy voice. )

The Auld Grump

Heh. I'm still on xp

 Sidstyler wrote:

Mymearan wrote:I'm sure they're crying rivers of blood over the fact that you bought their Codex.

The funny thing is they probably really are, because they're not raking in as much as they could be from Ravenous (I get the feeling that he's sharing books among friends and not paying full RRP for them either). That's the entire reason why they're trying to cut out independent retailers, after all: it isn't good enough to buy their product, it has to be direct from them and at full retail so they get to pocket all of it. If they make one penny less they get sore.

Yeah, I commend it. Ravenous is obviously still interested in playing 40k, but is unhappy with what GW is doing with the game (price or otherwise) and is doing something about it. I mean, it has to start somewhere, and if people want GW to change they're going to have to hit them where it counts.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Heh. I'm still on xp

Slight side-note: Windows 8 with "Classic Shell" is basically Windows 7 (the best since XP which is now sadly dated imo) with the improvements from 8 but none of the downsides. It also has some nice general tweaks. No metro screen, improved start menu and so on.

This is why I'm in favour of a well supported, community developed patch for 40k. It can greatly improve the base product. Not everyone needs to use it, but it gives the option for people to adopt.

 Yonan wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Heh. I'm still on xp

Slight side-note: Windows 8 with "Classic Shell" is basically Windows 7 (the best since XP which is now sadly dated imo) with the improvements from 8 but none of the downsides. It also has some nice general tweaks. No metro screen, improved start menu and so on.

This is why I'm in favour of a well supported, community developed patch for 40k. It can greatly improve the base product. Not everyone needs to use it, but it gives the option for people to adopt.

Myself well..... "LET THE GALAXY BURN!!!!"


The GW financials... well they are going to be awesome too!!!!

Wait, if GW goes to direct sale on their webstore only, and independent stores don't sell GW, will that mean that they won't have 40k played in their stores because generally they don't allow games they don't sell, so will that mean a near death sentence to the 40k community outside of clique-ish clubs?

 MWHistorian wrote:
Wait, if GW goes to direct sale on their webstore only, and independent stores don't sell GW, will that mean that they won't have 40k played in their stores because generally they don't allow games they don't sell, so will that mean a near death sentence to the 40k community outside of clique-ish clubs?

Maybe, but probably not quite a death sentence. It'll depend on FLGSs and if they choose to let people still play games in their store even though they don't carry the product. It certainly won't help, and will open the door even more for other games.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Wait, if GW goes to direct sale on their webstore only, and independent stores don't sell GW, will that mean that they won't have 40k played in their stores because generally they don't allow games they don't sell, so will that mean a near death sentence to the 40k community outside of clique-ish clubs?

Yeah but short term profits yo! It's all about them short term profits!

 slowthar wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Wait, if GW goes to direct sale on their webstore only, and independent stores don't sell GW, will that mean that they won't have 40k played in their stores because generally they don't allow games they don't sell, so will that mean a near death sentence to the 40k community outside of clique-ish clubs?

Maybe, but probably not quite a death sentence. It'll depend on FLGSs and if they choose to let people still play games in their store even though they don't carry the product. It certainly won't help, and will open the door even more for other games.

If the games store sells kromlech or maxi-mini why not, they can still sell product for the game.

 Sidstyler wrote:

Mymearan wrote:I'm sure they're crying rivers of blood over the fact that you bought their Codex.

The funny thing is they probably really are, because they're not raking in as much as they could be from Ravenous (I get the feeling that he's sharing books among friends and not paying full RRP for them either). That's the entire reason why they're trying to cut out independent retailers, after all: it isn't good enough to buy their product, it has to be direct from them and at full retail so they get to pocket all of it. If they make one penny less they get sore.

That's right.

And iTunes cards go on sale all the time from 20 to 50% , so the amount of money I put into codices is beyond reasonable, I pay less then GW employees do. If I get a few more friends on I'll spend $4 or less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Accolade wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

Mymearan wrote:I'm sure they're crying rivers of blood over the fact that you bought their Codex.

The funny thing is they probably really are, because they're not raking in as much as they could be from Ravenous (I get the feeling that he's sharing books among friends and not paying full RRP for them either). That's the entire reason why they're trying to cut out independent retailers, after all: it isn't good enough to buy their product, it has to be direct from them and at full retail so they get to pocket all of it. If they make one penny less they get sore.

Yeah, I commend it. Ravenous is obviously still interested in playing 40k, but is unhappy with what GW is doing with the game (price or otherwise) and is doing something about it. I mean, it has to start somewhere, and if people want GW to change they're going to have to hit them where it counts.

Exactly. Piracy and the like exists only when the company or group make the environment for it a necessity. With a book every 2 months that's $360+ tax a year, with Apple ID sharing its $18 (with 50% off iTunes card deals and 10 people) to $180 (with only 2 people).

I view the relationship with GW falls in 2 groups.

1) Blissfully and willfully ignorant

2) Make the hobby work for you by any means necessary.

You can make this hobby cheap as hell, or you can keep validating GWs terrible behaviour. What you allow is what will continue, and GW is only sinking to new depths of desperation.

 Ravenous D wrote:

2) Make the hobby work for you by any means necessary.
You can make this hobby cheap as hell, or you can keep validating GWs terrible behaviour. What you allow is what will continue, and GW is only sinking to new depths of desperation.

Have an exalt for that

EDIT: Fair enough, I will try not to backbite

Backbiting does not help advance the discussion whichever side of it you may belong to.

Alright, so switching to something more constructive, I do wonder how Forgeworld will get on in the upcoming years. While I certainly don't see GW biting the bullet anytime too soon, I do see a continuous drifting off of customers which could result in a catastrophic collapse similar to what Wayshubba has described.

However, my understanding of Forgeworld is that it continued to thrive over these last few years. And in the event of, let's say, a year or two of actual losses for GW, I wonder if FW will simply be told to shut down or if it will continue to push its 30k stuff. It seems sometimes that Forgeworld has become more and more autonomous; the rumored website merger did not come to pass and FW has its own independent public relations. The two groups act like completely different companies (which is odd considering they are, in fact, *one* company).

It seems to me that GW looks at Forgeworld like some older brother who has been more successful. If I remember correctly the newest edition of 40k doesn't even mention Forgeworld, and with pricing on a number of GW releases now outpacing the cost of FW, I feel like GW is suffering from a case of "anything he can do, I can do better!" Yet, they can't go out and stymie FW, they bring in considerable revenue to an ailing company. I just wonder if in the long-term GW continues to pull out of the market and trend downward, if FW will be further distanced to not be saddled with the problems GW is facing.

(I say this will little true understanding of markets; it's more of a comparison between some business events in my own life and what is going on with GW.)

To be fair though Forgeworld was always the "luxury" part of 40k in years past, and generally was also considered unofficial - cool for diorama and awesome pieces, but not something you bought to actually use in a game. Although I think some of that stems from FW's precursor, Armorcast, since in 2nd edition Armorcast was insanely overpowered in games and Armorcast *was* unofficial to my knowledge, so the idea that anything other than GW/Citadel isn't official, even when FW is a subsidiary of GW.

Of course that stigma has diminished lately, but I think the idea that Forgeworld is okay to be expensive because it was always finely-detailed resin kits and generally optional made it okay, while GW itself is "necessary". I think that's the major distinction between the two.

FW feels more like buying the sports package on a car; looks cool and can cost you a bit, but you don't need it. GW on the other hand is selling you a Daewoo for a hundred grand and trying to convince you that it's a Ferrari, and they already let the air out of your old car's tires.

GW is learning slowly, they try to sell to what the "market can bear".

The iTunes ID sharing is a great legal (grayish) means of reducing cost.

They are past the point software gaming companies got to when pirating games became rampant due to extreme pricing. Steam and GOG show now that as reasonable prices are introduced, piracy decreases.

I still do not understand why they keep stating the company line that they are a model company when published reading material rakes in so much money, it is probably saving their year end financial report bacon right now.

I had been collecting 40k stuff since just before 3rd edition, other than the occasional new model it is only their rules and codex's they get the most money out of me. 7th was a rather limited change to the 6th, the new army selection and Psi phase of the game are the only real changes to core rules of the game.

The Future of Games Workshop:

When profits are too small to hand out dividends Kirby will leave without looking back while selling his stock ASAP.

Those who remain will frantically try to fix the sinking ship and just may go looking for a buyer or go for a headline grabbing CEO (either way to try to feed their money habit).