Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Dakka is one of the few forums where I can read it and be like "Oh, geez... not this again, I should prob..." and I keep scrolling to see at least three other folks chiming in with a well poised response to something that is asinine; be it a rules question, tactics discussion, or who actually died on what planet during which war by what faction (and possibly Mk of the blade/bullet used).

For as much hate Dakka gets, it's probably one of the better community forums out there.

The thing is, though, Games Workshop is not making it's games any better. I choose not to forget that this used to be $35:



Or that you used to get 20 of the modern guardsmen models in a box versus 10.

 TheKbob wrote:

Or that you used to get 20 of the modern guardsmen models in a box versus 10.

For £15.

 Palindrome wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

Or that you used to get 20 of the modern guardsmen models in a box versus 10.

For £15.

(~$25 USD... wow...)

Also, this guy:

I've been driving through 'MURICA these past two days and haven't had much internet access, but I wanted to say that this;

@TheKbob

I like the cut of your jib.

Very nice posting here, couldn't agree more.

*Edit* I have an American flag! I have been converted!

 TheKbob wrote:
My post was made in response of the "Tsilber" folks out there. It's not a targeted attack, but every time someone rolls through a thread of legitimate beef with Games Workshop and their games, the hand waving of "I have no problems, lulz for you!" gets quite trite.

If I have to read another "Hate the Player, Not the Game!" blog (or BoLS) article, I may have to take a pair of hobby knives to the eyes. These arguments only further breed dissent in a player base already torn apart. ]

Sorry man, it wasn't my intention to come across as such ("i have no problems , lulz for you"). The topic was about GW's future. Some people think its terrible and going down in flames and some think it will be just fine. People voice their bad experiences, so people then voice their positive experiences in response, after all this is a discussion forum. Sometimes people take offense and get angry for no reason. Honestly Its the Horus heresy, age old, Kyril Sindermann argument. "I am right, so therefore you must be wrong" Or vice versa. Either way apologies for any offense.

And honestly, you don't HAVE to read all the "hate the player, not the game" articles. You chose to. So chose not to read em, because your eyes are valuable.

Tsilber wrote:


And honestly, you don't HAVE to read all the "hate the player, not the game" articles. You chose to. So chose not to read em, because your eyes are valuable.

Doesn't mean they're less wrong or any less worse for the community.

Articles, blog posts, and topics on forums that blame the players are bad for the community and should be put in their place. Telling players that their way of playing is wrong is the worst thing we can do as gamers.

Tsilber wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
My post was made in response of the "Tsilber" folks out there. It's not a targeted attack, but every time someone rolls through a thread of legitimate beef with Games Workshop and their games, the hand waving of "I have no problems, lulz for you!" gets quite trite.

If I have to read another "Hate the Player, Not the Game!" blog (or BoLS) article, I may have to take a pair of hobby knives to the eyes. These arguments only further breed dissent in a player base already torn apart. ]

Sorry man, it wasn't my intention to come across as such ("i have no problems , lulz for you"). The topic was about GW's future. Some people think its terrible and going down in flames and some think it will be just fine. People voice their bad experiences, so people then voice their positive experiences in response, after all this is a discussion forum. Sometimes people take offense and get angry for no reason. Honestly Its the Horus heresy, age old, Kyril Sindermann argument. "I am right, so therefore you must be wrong" Or vice versa. Either way apologies for any offense.

And honestly, you don't HAVE to read all the "hate the player, not the game" articles. You chose to. So chose not to read em, because your eyes are valuable.

Not exactly, while, over the course of twenty pages, the discussion has gone around the houses a bit, this particular thread isn't concerned with experiences, other than those that pertain very directly to the explicit facts of GW and their financial performance and the interpretation of those facts.

While there's every chance that you're right in your assertion that GW will be ok long term, there's very little evidence to support the idea that they're ok right now, and very little evidence to suggest that what they're doing to try and fix it is working sufficiently well to change that.

They're ok in the sense that they probably have time to fix things, and perhaps one or two chances to screw up, but currently "everything will be ok" is not a supportable argument.

 Blacksails wrote:

Tsilber wrote:


And honestly, you don't HAVE to read all the "hate the player, not the game" articles. You chose to. So chose not to read em, because your eyes are valuable.

Doesn't mean they're less wrong or any less worse for the community.

Articles, blog posts, and topics on forums that blame the players are bad for the community and should be put in their place. Telling players that their way of playing is wrong is the worst thing we can do as gamers.

? what? All I was suggesting is don't read articles that make you want to poke your eyes out, eyes are valuable. I was making a joke to his wording... No one said he was wrong or worse about anything, nor did I tell a player their way of playing is wrong... Did you get your reference "quote" correct?

Tsilber wrote:


? what? All I was suggesting is don't read articles that make you want to poke your eyes out, eyes are valuable. I was making a joke to his wording... No one said he was wrong or worse about anything, nor did I tell a player their way of playing is wrong... Did you get your reference "quote" correct?

No, I get that, but his strong dislike of posts like that is justified, and potentially worth the cost of his eyes if they were never to be seen again.

*Edit* Not my eyes though. Totally more valuable.

 azreal13 wrote:

Tsilber wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
My post was made in response of the "Tsilber" folks out there. It's not a targeted attack, but every time someone rolls through a thread of legitimate beef with Games Workshop and their games, the hand waving of "I have no problems, lulz for you!" gets quite trite.

If I have to read another "Hate the Player, Not the Game!" blog (or BoLS) article, I may have to take a pair of hobby knives to the eyes. These arguments only further breed dissent in a player base already torn apart. ]

Sorry man, it wasn't my intention to come across as such ("i have no problems , lulz for you"). The topic was about GW's future. Some people think its terrible and going down in flames and some think it will be just fine. People voice their bad experiences, so people then voice their positive experiences in response, after all this is a discussion forum. Sometimes people take offense and get angry for no reason. Honestly Its the Horus heresy, age old, Kyril Sindermann argument. "I am right, so therefore you must be wrong" Or vice versa. Either way apologies for any offense.

And honestly, you don't HAVE to read all the "hate the player, not the game" articles. You chose to. So chose not to read em, because your eyes are valuable.

Not exactly, while, over the course of twenty pages, the discussion has gone around the houses a bit, this particular thread isn't concerned with experiences, other than those that pertain very directly to the explicit facts of GW and their financial performance and the interpretation of those facts.

While there's every chance that you're right in your assertion that GW will be ok long term, there's very little evidence to support the idea that they're ok right now, and very little evidence to suggest that what they're doing to try and fix it is working sufficiently well to change that.

They're ok in the sense that they probably have time to fix things, and perhaps one or two chances to screw up, but currently "everything will be ok" is not a supportable argument.

After are last falling out on another thread, I can say now I appreciate what your saying and you make some good points AZ. But their is evidence that they will be fine and are moving in the right direction. Revamp the websites, new kits coming out. The amount of codex and books they put out in the last 24 months. Some can say "well all they wanted to do was make money". And some people think they were actually making attempts to update all the rules for all the models they put out. While some think the models are over priced. Some might find the building, modeling, painting and then play value in the $50 for 10 dark elf witches. I see the arguments on both sides. But I do not think GW is at the point of some major companies, such as GMAC or FORD who thought they could never fail because of how big they are. I do not think GW is going to fail because they know they are still not big enough to never fail.

I don't think that it is as rosy as all that - in the case of 7th ed. WH40K... for the first time no one in my local gaming group sprung for the new edition.

And only three bothered with 6th - vs. seven for 5th... and everyone had gone in for 3rd. (I do not remember the numbers for 4th ed.... I think that it might have been six, which means that 5th was more popular than 4th, but I am not certain.)

This time... nothing.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* The fact that 3rd edition had the full rulebook and the black mini-codex might have been a contributing factor - it actually brought back a lot of folks that had abandoned WH40K in the latter days of the silliness that was 2nd edition. And because of the binding problems... a fair number of folks ended up with two copies of the 3rd edition rules.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
I don't think that it is as rosy as all that - in the case of 7th ed. WH40K... for the first time no one in my local gaming group sprung for the new edition.

And only three bothered with 6th - vs. seven for 5th... and everyone had gone in for 3rd. (I do not remember the numbers for 4th ed.... I think that it might have been six, which means that 5th was more popular than 4th, but I am not certain.)

This time... nothing.

The Auld Grump

Where is the group located? Im not sure if I can mention the store I play at by name. But here in Connecticut I know 2 stores in the same town that are competitors. sold about 150 copies of 7th between the both of them. Both stores carry and have a presence of players for warmachine, malifeux, FOW in addition to GW. And both stores have a gaming area of about 10-15 tables. But your comment shows a reality towards the debate of GW not doing so hot, my local area would show evidence its doing just fine. I guess some areas groups are fed up, and plenty of other things out there to get your gaming fix from.

Tsilber wrote:
After are last falling out on another thread, I can say now I appreciate what your saying and you make some good points AZ. But their is evidence that they will be fine and are moving in the right direction. Revamp the websites, new kits coming out. The amount of codex and books they put out in the last 24 months. Some can say "well all they wanted to do was make money". And some people think they were actually making attempts to update all the rules for all the models they put out. While some think the models are over priced. Some might find the building, modeling, painting and then play value in the $50 for 10 dark elf witches. I see the arguments on both sides. But I do not think GW is at the point of some major companies, such as GMAC or FORD who thought they could never fail because of how big they are. I do not think GW is going to fail because they know they are still not big enough to never fail.

Sort of. On the surface it did seem like it was an effort to update everything, but then the manner of which they actually released everything was so random and roughshod.

You had codices, limited edition codices, supplements and mini codices getting hardback releases. You had formations getting digital only releases. Then you had codices getting digital releases only. Then you had oddballs like Militarum Tempestus that was released with the new IG codex which included only 4 units to make an entire army, and those units were new kits releasing right then. You had books and formations that were average, you had books and formations that were ridiculously powerful. You had a terrible codex release with a formation that emphasised new kits that had competitive players scrambling for ways to counter just the formation (Tyranids and Skyblight swarm).

Put simply, it was a massiely increased output of rules that was completely random in both quality and accessibility. To new players and veterans who are still enamoured with GW it might have indeed been like Christmas. To veterans who have become jaded about the product is just looked desperate - trying to release as much as possible as cheaply as possible (only releasing physical copies later of things that sold well as digital, for example) to get people to buy as much as possible.

When you then look at that behaviour at the time it came - during/after a particularly bad financial period (as per the last financial report), and alongside a new edition that came two years early, you can see why people are thinking it wasn't done out of love for the game by the company making it.

 TheKbob wrote:
Dakka is one of the few forums where I can read it and be like "Oh, geez... not this again, I should prob..." and I keep scrolling to see at least three other folks chiming in with a well poised response to something that is asinine; be it a rules question, tactics discussion, or who actually died on what planet during which war by what faction (and possibly Mk of the blade/bullet used).

For as much hate Dakka gets, it's probably one of the better community forums out there.

The thing is, though, Games Workshop is not making it's games any better. I choose not to forget that this used to be $35:

Spoiler:

Or that you used to get 20 of the modern guardsmen models in a box versus 10.

Do you know why some of hate comes from "certain people"?

I came to this site 4 years ago and found out what a wonderful place where people can find a plethora of sound information and advice. I also came at a time of some serious tension. Though new, many of us offered our services to this site just in case any kind of legal issues (or other matters) should occur. In my case I knew as an old timer in the hobby (god going on close to 45 years) you simply do not type of place on the other sites. This site is worth fighting for. This site is one of the few sites that kept true to the independence of thinking and expressing our viewpoints within reason.

You do not see that in many of the other sites. Which is why this is the largest site of its kind. And that is why "haters" hate this site.

They can not control the growth of this site.

They can not control the increase, it least in my eyes, the quality of professionals that come to Dakka to express and share their information on how certain things work... in business and in this hobby.

The reason why certain people hates us is because we keep on searching about the truth about things that other people/business wants to hide.

And it pisses them off greatly...

So I'll continue to support Dakka so that we have the freedom of expression without the fear of reprisal from those who believe that...

Ignorance is Bliss.

 -Loki- wrote:
Sort of. On the surface it did seem like it was an effort to update everything, but then the manner of which they actually released everything was so random and roughshod.

"Throwing fistfulls of brown matter at the wall to see what sticks" in other words. Regardless of the long term consequences of throwing brown matter on your customers.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
This is DakkaDakka. We encourage a healthy free exchange of ideas.

Which is why there is a [DCM] off to the left.

Tsilber wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
I don't think that it is as rosy as all that - in the case of 7th ed. WH40K... for the first time no one in my local gaming group sprung for the new edition.

And only three bothered with 6th - vs. seven for 5th... and everyone had gone in for 3rd. (I do not remember the numbers for 4th ed.... I think that it might have been six, which means that 5th was more popular than 4th, but I am not certain.)

This time... nothing.

The Auld Grump

Where is the group located? Im not sure if I can mention the store I play at by name. But here in Connecticut I know 2 stores in the same town that are competitors. sold about 150 copies of 7th between the both of them. Both stores carry and have a presence of players for warmachine, malifeux, FOW in addition to GW. And both stores have a gaming area of about 10-15 tables. But your comment shows a reality towards the debate of GW not doing so hot, my local area would show evidence its doing just fine. I guess some areas groups are fed up, and plenty of other things out there to get your gaming fix from.

Portland, Maine. There is a store pretty much dedicated to GW games - but most of the folks that I play with mostly shop in Gardner, at a much less GW centric store.

But I am not talking about a store group - I am talking about twelve eighteen folks that take the time, several days each week, to play something on a ping pong table turned into a battlefield - lately that something has most often been Kings of War, with a few games of Deadzone, Infinity, and Flames of War filling in the gaps. (Malifaux keeps being talked about... I have my miniatures for it... but it has not yet happened.)

I typically make it to one night a week.

There is a pick up group that alternates between Necromunda and Mordheim.

WARMAHordes is played on a night that I can't make, but I think that it has about five or six players. But it gets its own night - which is more than can be said for Kings of War or the other games. (Main reason - the owner of said table really, really likes WARMACHINE, and also owns a Hordes army... His house, his table.)

Dreadball gets played a lot as well - but I skip that night, I am not a big fan of either Dreadball or Blood Bowl.

Using that same group of players... 4e D&D is pretty much dead, Pathfinder is running strong, and the WH40K roleplaying games are doing just fine! (It is actually easier to get a game of any of those RPGs going than a simple game of WH40K....)

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* Demographics of the group - Total of eighteen players, ten over the age of 35, four between 25 and 35, four of ages 17 or younger. (Second and third generation gamers in that younger sub group. )

I am the oldest, at over fifty. Two of the youngsters were my students.

Also... the group is currently eighteen people, not twelve - I really should have remembered this - number eighteen is my girlfriend. I was the one that introduced her to the group. (She needed to beat, I mean meet, new people. )

Tsilber wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

Tsilber wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
My post was made in response of the "Tsilber" folks out there. It's not a targeted attack, but every time someone rolls through a thread of legitimate beef with Games Workshop and their games, the hand waving of "I have no problems, lulz for you!" gets quite trite.

If I have to read another "Hate the Player, Not the Game!" blog (or BoLS) article, I may have to take a pair of hobby knives to the eyes. These arguments only further breed dissent in a player base already torn apart. ]

Sorry man, it wasn't my intention to come across as such ("i have no problems , lulz for you"). The topic was about GW's future. Some people think its terrible and going down in flames and some think it will be just fine. People voice their bad experiences, so people then voice their positive experiences in response, after all this is a discussion forum. Sometimes people take offense and get angry for no reason. Honestly Its the Horus heresy, age old, Kyril Sindermann argument. "I am right, so therefore you must be wrong" Or vice versa. Either way apologies for any offense.

And honestly, you don't HAVE to read all the "hate the player, not the game" articles. You chose to. So chose not to read em, because your eyes are valuable.

Not exactly, while, over the course of twenty pages, the discussion has gone around the houses a bit, this particular thread isn't concerned with experiences, other than those that pertain very directly to the explicit facts of GW and their financial performance and the interpretation of those facts.

While there's every chance that you're right in your assertion that GW will be ok long term, there's very little evidence to support the idea that they're ok right now, and very little evidence to suggest that what they're doing to try and fix it is working sufficiently well to change that.

They're ok in the sense that they probably have time to fix things, and perhaps one or two chances to screw up, but currently "everything will be ok" is not a supportable argument.

After are last falling out on another thread, I can say now I appreciate what your saying and you make some good points AZ. But their is evidence that they will be fine and are moving in the right direction. Revamp the websites, new kits coming out. The amount of codex and books they put out in the last 24 months. Some can say "well all they wanted to do was make money". And some people think they were actually making attempts to update all the rules for all the models they put out. While some think the models are over priced. Some might find the building, modeling, painting and then play value in the $50 for 10 dark elf witches. I see the arguments on both sides. But I do not think GW is at the point of some major companies, such as GMAC or FORD who thought they could never fail because of how big they are. I do not think GW is going to fail because they know they are still not big enough to never fail.

If you're hitherto unaware, spend some time researching the decline and final days of TSR.

The parallels are both astonishingly similar and really disturbing.

Value is subjective, and I guarantee you, however people find value in $50 for 10 Witch Elves, quantifiably more will find value in $40 for 10 Witch Elves.

The last interim report, management statement and dividend declaration all point to this being the worst year that GW has had in a long time, despite the accelerated release schedule. This suggests that either a) the increased release rate has had a directly proportional reduction in quality, and that has been noticed by more than a few people on some pokey site on this here new fangled Internet thingy, who have subsequently gone and spent their money elsewhere or b) the ever growing barrier to entry has finally got to the point where GW has effectively cut off new blood at any significant level, and is left with a net customer base that is shrinking, year on year, who can only spend so much cash, and that spending is now simply diffused over a wider range of products or c) a bit of both.

Factor in the consistent anecdotal evidence that Kirby is very much in charge and runs things the way he wants, which can be seen evidenced in the apparently very human way GW acts for a gestalt entity made up of dozens of personalities, who, in theory at least, have their own thoughts and options, especially in terms of it's arrogance and hubris, and a rapid implosion of GW is, while I don't think likely, still a very real possibility.

Tsilber wrote:

After are last falling out on another thread, I can say now I appreciate what your saying and you make some good points AZ. But their is evidence that they will be fine and are moving in the right direction. Revamp the websites, new kits coming out. The amount of codex and books they put out in the last 24 months. Some can say "well all they wanted to do was make money". And some people think they were actually making attempts to update all the rules for all the models they put out. While some think the models are over priced. Some might find the building, modeling, painting and then play value in the $50 for 10 dark elf witches. I see the arguments on both sides. But I do not think GW is at the point of some major companies, such as GMAC or FORD who thought they could never fail because of how big they are. I do not think GW is going to fail because they know they are still not big enough to never fail.

Now I'm a science type, not the business type. I plan to change that a bit with further studies in my future career path, but for now, money numbers are a bit of tom-foolery to me that I leave to the other business types on this forum.

But the general idea I get is simply this:

Movement doesn't equate to progress. My cat may the little red daemon light of doom for hours on end, but be no closer to actually achieving her goal of capture.

I am not saying Games Workshop is sunk, but I am saying they are hurting. In my travels I have seen one gaming group sunk, another flounder between stores and waffle pretty hard with 6E, and now I live in an area where the largest 40k crowds gather at one store particular because they run heavily comped events. No comp usually means little to no events. And they, from my limited scope, growing in their skirmish games scene quickly. Since the December to Remember event, I was pretty diehard GW even though I owned armies in other games. Leading up to December, I was getting pretty irritated with the game after a major GT I had done fairly well in. Not that I was upset about games or results, but it felt like playing 40k got in the way of my fun when I could have join equally as cool of dudes, and good buds I had met in that city, that all moved to Warmahordes or Infinity.

Since the great purge of '14 has happened, we've seen releases come hot and heavy, but they all have the same tone. Couple of dual kits, couple of characters/headquarters, and maybe one new thing. If it doesn't fit into that, delete from the book. And the books all have become painfully vanilla in their fluff. It would be easy to make "chapter tactics" for both Imperial Guard and Tyranids to represent the various factions and hive fleets in both armies, but they didn't. They poop out a "codex" for one right before the main book comes out and then pull it back to web only and then "out of print". The other gets massive boosts in performance through $15 updates post release. There's no set pattern on these releases except for vanilla book and "try something different" each time to generate sales. That doesn't breed confidence, to me.

Lastly, the rules releases have been crap. We still have a codex that automatically loses (I like to let no one forget this) and bad FAQs for our newest edition. Which still hasn't sold out of it's "limited edition" stock of which has markedly reduced in value from the previous special editions (Apoc was cheaper and came with a hard carrying case with foam vesus cardboard shell and coins). The store page for this product still says, and I quote:

Games Workshop wrote:"Act fast and pre-order yours today to avoid disappointment. "

Now, to conclude, I ask who's disappointment are they avoiding? Yours or theirs?

I played 6th edition and did not have very much fun doing it....just didn't enjoy the game anymore to be honest. Needing a new game I then switched to X-Wing miniatures and haven't looked back to 40k since it came out. Now with 7th, I took a look at the new rules set to see if it would rekindle the 40k itch....it didn't. Looks like I'm done with 40k almost entirely except for the RPGs FFG has put out.

 Yonan wrote:
"Throwing fistfulls of brown matter at the wall to see what sticks" in other words. Regardless of the long term consequences of throwing brown matter on your customers.

Sounds remarkably similar to GW's current method of finding development teams for their electronic games...

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
... and the WH40K roleplaying games are doing just fine! (It is actually easier to get a game of any of those RPGs going than a simple game of WH40K....)

This sounds like a wonderful place to live. Which magical wardrobe must I walk through to enter this land?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
"Throwing fistfulls of brown matter at the wall to see what sticks" in other words. Regardless of the long term consequences of throwing brown matter on your customers.

Sounds remarkably similar to GW's current method of finding development teams for their electronic games...

How I long for another DoW game rather than the trash that's come out since. Space Marine was decent though flawed.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
"Throwing fistfulls of brown matter at the wall to see what sticks" in other words. Regardless of the long term consequences of throwing brown matter on your customers.

Sounds remarkably similar to GW's current method of finding development teams for their electronic games...

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
... and the WH40K roleplaying games are doing just fine! (It is actually easier to get a game of any of those RPGs going than a simple game of WH40K....)

This sounds like a wonderful place to live. Which magical wardrobe must I walk through to enter this land?

*SNERK!*

Honestly - I think it is because there are a bunch of folks that need their 40K fix, but don't like the current edition(s) of 40K....

40K may not be as original or as unique as GW may want us to think, but it is a fun setting (in a grimdark sort of way).

Hell, I ran a two year long campaign using the old World of Darkness rules. (It is stupidly easy to convert - pretty much a 1:1 correlation between the two systems. BS = Firearms, WS=Melee/Brawl, Str=Str, Toughness=Stamina....)

I just wish that GW would, well... stop being GW....

The Auld Grump
*EDIT* The old Storyteller system was my default system for quite some time.

I have to agree that the 40K RPGs have been done really well, props to FFG for that. I haven't played yet (maybe my battlesystems terrain will change that when it arrives) but as an experienced RPG vet, the rules read well. Also have watched it streamed on twitch and it comes off well.

Edit: Fantasy Flight Games make both the 40k RPG and X-wing right? They make good rules all 'round it seems.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

This sounds like a wonderful place to live. Which magical wardrobe must I walk through to enter this land?

Not only that but they have pick up games of Necromunda!

I may have to emigrate.

 TheKbob wrote:
Dakka is one of the few forums where I can read it and be like "Oh, geez... not this again, I should prob..." and I keep scrolling to see at least three other folks chiming in with a well poised response to something that is asinine; be it a rules question, tactics discussion, or who actually died on what planet during which war by what faction (and possibly Mk of the blade/bullet used).

For as much hate Dakka gets, it's probably one of the better community forums out there.

The thing is, though, Games Workshop is not making it's games any better. I choose not to forget that this used to be $35:

Spoiler:

Or that you used to get 20 of the modern guardsmen models in a box versus 10.

I remember buying citadel RT eldar guardians blister with 12 guardians for 18 Dutch Guilders not Euros in the early 1990's, damn that inflation!

 Yonan wrote:
Edit: Fantasy Flight Games make both the 40k RPG and X-wing right? They make good rules all 'round it seems.

And the new Star Wars RPG; which although I haven't played yet seems to have received good feedback.

 Riquende wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
Edit: Fantasy Flight Games make both the 40k RPG and X-wing right? They make good rules all 'round it seems.

And the new Star Wars RPG; which although I haven't played yet seems to have received good feedback.

Time for GW to become a "miniatures company" like they claim and outsource all rules creation to FFG. Can't be worse, will likely be a whole lot better.

 Yonan wrote:
Time for GW to become a "miniatures company" like they claim and outsource all rules creation to FFG. Can't be worse, will likely be a whole lot better.

You have no idea how much I want that to happen.

Would it really save them at this point? So the game gets a little better, but the models are still way too expensive...probably more expensive than even now, since they can't make an easy buck selling expensive mandatory rulebooks, limited editions, supplements, etc.

People wouldn't mind the models being more expensive as much if the rules were good though. At least then it'd have more than ubiquity (due to the number of people who have 10+ year old armies) going for it.