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You can play with non-GW models.

The danger now for GW is that the price of models is pushing users to avoid the official kits and the rapidly increasing price of the rules is pushing people not to use them, let alone dissatisfaction with various kinds of issues.

Cost barrier to entry has been mentioned above. There is also a significant cost barrier for veteran players simply to continue.

So, what is the list of what needs to change to "turn GW around" since there are quite a few.

1. Fix the rules.
2. Model pricing.
3. Regional pricing.
4. Improve licensing to multiple industries.
5. Refocus on customer satisfaction again.
6. Failcast
7. Lawsuits and kneejerk reactions such as "Astra Militarum" need to go away

Just off the top of my head... they have a lot of problems, some with much more impact than others though of course - rules and pricing basically.

 Yonan wrote:
So, what is the list of what needs to change to "turn GW around" since there are quite a few.

1. Fix the rules.
2. Model pricing.
3. Regional pricing.
4. Improve licensing to multiple industries.
5. Refocus on customer satisfaction again.
6. Failcast
7. Lawsuits and kneejerk reactions such as "Astra Militarum" need to go away

Just off the top of my head... they have a lot of problems, some with much more impact than others though of course - rules and pricing basically.

The worst part is that I highly doubt that any of those things listed are considered problems by GW management. In fact half of them might be considered benefits.

They seem more concerned with forging a narrative than they are with forging a business.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
You can play with non-GW models.

The danger now for GW is that the price of models is pushing users to avoid the official kits and the rapidly increasing price of the rules is pushing people not to use them, let alone dissatisfaction with various kinds of issues.

Cost barrier to entry has been mentioned above. There is also a significant cost barrier for veteran players simply to continue.

My local group is full of 40k vets, and I'm the noob. I just can't afford to build an army to the scale that they have, so I buy what I want to paint. I really cannot see new players coming to GW anytime soon. The Specialist Games seemed to be geared precisely towards new players.

Also! The new rulebook even says that you should already know some things about 40k going into it. AND THERE ARE TYPOS!

8. Never say forge a narrative again.

That's perhaps more important than pricing and rules ; p

 jonolikespie wrote:
The worst part is that I highly doubt that any of those things listed are considered problems by GW management. In fact half of them might be considered benefits.

Hence the situation we're in I guess.

 TheKbob wrote:

Tsilber wrote:

After are last falling out on another thread, I can say now I appreciate what your saying and you make some good points AZ. But their is evidence that they will be fine and are moving in the right direction. Revamp the websites, new kits coming out. The amount of codex and books they put out in the last 24 months. Some can say "well all they wanted to do was make money". And some people think they were actually making attempts to update all the rules for all the models they put out. While some think the models are over priced. Some might find the building, modeling, painting and then play value in the $50 for 10 dark elf witches. I see the arguments on both sides. But I do not think GW is at the point of some major companies, such as GMAC or FORD who thought they could never fail because of how big they are. I do not think GW is going to fail because they know they are still not big enough to never fail.

Now I'm a science type, not the business type. I plan to change that a bit with further studies in my future career path, but for now, money numbers are a bit of tom-foolery to me that I leave to the other business types on this forum.

But the general idea I get is simply this:

Movement doesn't equate to progress. My cat may the little red daemon light of doom for hours on end, but be no closer to actually achieving her goal of capture.

I am not saying Games Workshop is sunk, but I am saying they are hurting. In my travels I have seen one gaming group sunk, another flounder between stores and waffle pretty hard with 6E, and now I live in an area where the largest 40k crowds gather at one store particular because they run heavily comped events. No comp usually means little to no events. And they, from my limited scope, growing in their skirmish games scene quickly. Since the December to Remember event, I was pretty diehard GW even though I owned armies in other games. Leading up to December, I was getting pretty irritated with the game after a major GT I had done fairly well in. Not that I was upset about games or results, but it felt like playing 40k got in the way of my fun when I could have join equally as cool of dudes, and good buds I had met in that city, that all moved to Warmahordes or Infinity.

Since the great purge of '14 has happened, we've seen releases come hot and heavy, but they all have the same tone. Couple of dual kits, couple of characters/headquarters, and maybe one new thing. If it doesn't fit into that, delete from the book. And the books all have become painfully vanilla in their fluff. It would be easy to make "chapter tactics" for both Imperial Guard and Tyranids to represent the various factions and hive fleets in both armies, but they didn't. They poop out a "codex" for one right before the main book comes out and then pull it back to web only and then "out of print". The other gets massive boosts in performance through $15 updates post release. There's no set pattern on these releases except for vanilla book and "try something different" each time to generate sales. That doesn't breed confidence, to me.

Lastly, the rules releases have been crap. We still have a codex that automatically loses (I like to let no one forget this) and bad FAQs for our newest edition. Which still hasn't sold out of it's "limited edition" stock of which has markedly reduced in value from the previous special editions (Apoc was cheaper and came with a hard carrying case with foam vesus cardboard shell and coins). The store page for this product still says, and I quote:

Games Workshop wrote:"Act fast and pre-order yours today to avoid disappointment. "

Now, to conclude, I ask who's disappointment are they avoiding? Yours or theirs?

I guess the facts of the matter are they had a bad a few bad quarters, and people are rightfully upset with how they went about doing things. But the thing about rules being bad, FAQ stinking, dual kits being unfair. cost being overpriced, Codex then data slate, then codex again being considered releases of brown matter thrown at the wall to see what sticks.... These are all opinions of certain people in the game. It is not the general consensus or at least not the majority, well not in the area I am in and not on the different forums I read or blogs I follow.

I made a point earlier about a duel witch dark elf Kit being $50. How I found the worth not only in the 10 models, but the building, posing, bitz options, and modeling/painting. Then the play value of them being on the board. Azriel had mentioned i would of felt even better if the models were $40. While this is legitimately for sure, But If they were $40 there would still be people saying the price was to high? Why not $30 or $20? Because the company that sells the models say $50.. So it is $50, less whatever discounts you may find. You know have a few decisions.
A) Find enjoyment and the worth in $50
B) do not buy it because it is over priced in your opinion, wasting no more time and energy with or about it.
C) be frustrated with it and voice your complaint via letter to GW, forums, or word of mouth to a friend. There is no "WRONG" or "RIGHT" decision....

I understand their are gripes and legitimate people who are frustrated and view things happening as bad. I see some people feel betrayed and wish GW was still that small company that everyone in the world did not know about.
I understand and think it is sad that GW has taken steps in a direction that has caused people to want to walk away from this game.
I understand some people think the rules were rushed and are terrible, or whatever. See my signature... It is not made with callous intent btw.
But there is also a lot of non relevance being thrown in. And regardless of the how the rules were written, regardless of the cost of models, the release of books and release of codexs. No matter what GW did, there will still be a group of people who were upset, or mad, or finding reasons to hate on GW. You simply can not please everyone, and this is not new for GW. It's only more common since the inter-webs have come out.

I do feel for those that legitimately think GW has done a terrible job with their handling of things, I don't want to see anyone ever throw up their hands and walk away from something they love, but it's their rightful opinions and options to do so.
In closing, opinions have been stated an debated. Facts have been posted that does not look promising for GW over the last few quarters dollar and cents wise. But only the future holds what will come of it all, for now the world keep spinning.
On a side note is GW a true public trading company? Like anyone can buy stock? I am not up to date on my stock market know-how.

Tsilber, price elasticity is a real thing and if, as a company, you're reducing exposure to your product because management actually believes that they're the "Porsche" of miniatures....well, you get what we're currently seeing. A reduced market presence is never a good thing but management seems convinced that selling 2000 model kits at $60 per kit is better than 8000 at $40 per kit. Margin is certainly high enough to accommodate this but it would take the company stepping away from the status quo of their current pricing, corporate governance and marketing structures.

Yep, anyone can own GW stock. I did until January when my auto-sell feature kicked in and sold my holdings. Kinda funny that I used my dividends to partially support my plastic addiction. :-)

Tsilber wrote:

I guess the facts of the matter are they had a bad a few bad quarters, and people are rightfully upset with how they went about doing things. But the thing about rules being bad, FAQ stinking, dual kits being unfair. cost being overpriced, Codex then data slate, then codex again being considered releases of brown matter thrown at the wall to see what sticks.... These are all opinions of certain people in the game. It is not the general consensus or at least not the majority, well not in the area I am in and not on the different forums I read or blogs I follow.

Are you actually going to say that copy and paste books with little-to-no-value that only add a page's worth of rules for $50 released two weeks before the main event and then moved to digital only aren't a case for market confusion? That the practice isn't a cash grab? How about the codex that auto-loses? How about the FAQs being nothing but copy and paste rush jobs and losing a great deal of FAQs in the process? There's nothing subject or opinion based in these because they are simple measures of judgement. Unless, you mean to tell me, the Grey Knights are supposed to have vindicators and whirlwinds along with the Blood Angels losing their fast vehicles. All for an $85 edition update they've been in the works for at least 12 months and only a year into their last major edition update. The business being crap is showing it's general consensus regardless of any "rainbows and unicorns" blog posts. The business practices are actively killing communities and have been for the last two years since 6E hit. Whether or not it's affected you is another story, but it's certainly affecting them.

The rest of your post misses a lot of points and also strongly suggests you haven't read a majority of this thread as you'd have a few more answers already and have a great amount of clarity. GW is publicly traded, hence we know a lot of their details. And all the economically minded folks that post here, with a great amount of data than your standard schlub like myself would have, are saying it's not looking to hot. Not sinking ship, but not "rainbows and unicorns" either.

 TheKbob wrote:
The thing is, though, Games Workshop is not making it's games any better. I choose not to forget that this used to be $35:

Spoiler:

You used to be able to get a squad of 5 metal troopers (exarch separate) for $7 when I first started.

 keezus wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
The thing is, though, Games Workshop is not making it's games any better. I choose not to forget that this used to be $35:

Spoiler:

You used to be able to get a squad of 5 metal troopers (exarch separate) for $7 when I first started.

Well, but more to what I believe TheKbob is getting at, you could get that 10-man squad of Dire Avengers not that long ago. They were available until what, the release of the more recent Eldar codex in 2013? Unfortunately, GW saw the Dire Avengers as specialists and thought therefore that their price should be higher.

It's the same crap that went on with the Dark Elf Witch Elves- they themselves are a Core unit, but their dual-kit is the Sisters of Slaughter, whom are a Rare unit and therefore now worth $60. Meanwhile the Core Dreadspears with their variant kits are only $35, even though they come with more than the Witch Elves...

EDIT: and I think that's worth clarifying since I kept seeing it- the Wych Elves are $60, not $50.

 TheKbob wrote:

Tsilber wrote:

I guess the facts of the matter are they had a bad a few bad quarters, and people are rightfully upset with how they went about doing things. But the thing about rules being bad, FAQ stinking, dual kits being unfair. cost being overpriced, Codex then data slate, then codex again being considered releases of brown matter thrown at the wall to see what sticks.... These are all opinions of certain people in the game. It is not the general consensus or at least not the majority, well not in the area I am in and not on the different forums I read or blogs I follow.

Are you actually going to say that copy and paste books with little-to-no-value that only add a page's worth of rules for $50 released two weeks before the main event and then moved to digital only aren't a case for market confusion? That the practice isn't a cash grab? How about the codex that auto-loses? How about the FAQs being nothing but copy and paste rush jobs and losing a great deal of FAQs in the process? There's nothing subject or opinion based in these because they are simple measures of judgement. Unless, you mean to tell me, the Grey Knights are supposed to have vindicators and whirlwinds along with the Blood Angels losing their fast vehicles. All for an $85 edition update they've been in the works for at least 12 months and only a year into their last major edition update. The business being crap is showing it's general consensus regardless of any "rainbows and unicorns" blog posts. The business practices are actively killing communities and have been for the last two years since 6E hit. Whether or not it's affected you is another story, but it's certainly affecting them.

The rest of your post misses a lot of points and also strongly suggests you haven't read a majority of this thread as you'd have a few more answers already and have a great amount of clarity. GW is publicly traded, hence we know a lot of their details. And all the economically minded folks that post here, with a great amount of data than your standard schlub like myself would have, are saying it's not looking to hot. Not sinking ship, but not "rainbows and unicorns" either.

I assume you are speaking of one book, when you refer to a copy and paste books for $50 released 2 weeks before the main event. And sure, what were they thinking. That was kinda silly and greedy. So I agree with you on that one about cash grab and what not, pretty said ploy by GW.
As for the $85 7th edition. I found it worth it. The rules and FAQ's were condensed into one book, a decent amount of rules changes, a better binding...Plus the fluff book and the Gallery book. Is the fluff redundant for you and I? Sure, but not for the new player getting into the game. And I enjoyed reading it again.

As for codex's that auto lose, I have to cease agreeing with you. You spoke earlier about reading one more post about X you would gouge your eyes out, lol. I find the same frustration when I see the post about "Auto-lose" codexs.
What codex's auto lose? I do not think any codex is auto-lose, just certain types of players and certain list (and this is opinion not fact). First off, some people play for the fluff and love of the game, so play a codex/list that may lose but still love playing it. Second, what "Auto-lose" codex have you actually played and done the diligence of trying out for yourself?
There was an interesting story about an orks player claiming it was an auto lose army codex and could not win. A Person then posted a list with max loota squads times 3, in battle wagons, with mega armor boss's in two of them to give 2 units slow and purposeful. The guy went on to talk about how he does great in tournies, instead of the original poster trying out the list, taking any of his advice, or thanking him. He went on a tirade on how it would not matter, called the player of the 3 loota squads a liar, and then went on to say he should not have to buy all those lootas... My point is before even trying to give it a chance, using other models as counts as, trying some practice games. He read the post and immediately decided the guy was a liar, and simply found reasons to continue to be mad...
Another example: late last year and early this year there were a lot on forums talking about daemons. How you could not win without Fateweaver, you could not win unless you used a flying circus list, or the grimoire and 3 heralds with screamers. Any list not utilizing these combinations was "auto-lose". So a list was posted, asking how it would do at NOVA. The list did not have fateweaver or the grimoire, did not have screamers and only 2 FMC. Basically it was way outside what the internet declared deamons needed to win... They poster was told the list was bad, would not do well in NOVA or any GT, it only had 2 troops, one being non scoring swarms. The list needed fateweaver... All this was said despite the fact the list/player won Templecon's Onslaught GT the week before.... So the claims of auto-lose codex/list is more opinion than anything else, unless you have played the codex yourself you really should not be using what a few on the internet say. Don't believe everything you read

As for the company being publicly traded, I did read through majority of this thread and was then verifying things I could, sadly my only resource was the internet which is more of a guide of coarse. But I thought I had read somewhere that GW was publicly traded, but was restricted to certain people or only allowed certain people to buy in. Either way it matters little what I thought as its been verified how it works.

In the end we all may think we know whats best or not best for GW, we can declare whats fair profit margin and whats over priced all we like. We all may think we know the inner workings of cost of materials, shipping, and marketing, but a majority of us do not. We simply do not have the luxury of deciding what GW should be allowed to sell its products for. This is no different with computers, cellphone, cars, ETC. Which all have astronomical profit margins, and sometimes at the expense of children in sweat shops....

I do see the legitimacy in peoples arguments against GW, I have even switched some of my points of views through this discussion and was made aware of some things I was clueless about. Facts are one thing, and it was only opinions I was debating. But I will refrain from posting further, as it seems to have no effect regardless what I have to say from a positive side, it seems more like people just want to discuss why GW is not rainbows and unicorns.... People are upset, have a right to be, and I am not GW's shield or spokesperson. I simply think they will be fine and bounce back, and only the future will tell.

I apologize for any offense, as well as any post or remarks there were out of place on this particular discussion. *burns a GW model* ,but not one of the Dark elf witch elves, them are expensive.

Legion Of The Damned auto-loses.

Actually auto-loses, not just "is very poor."

They have no exception to reserves arriving from turn 2, and all LotD units must be reserved. Therefore, without allies, a LotD army loses end of turn one.

It'd be a good idea to familiarise yourself with some of the wider arguments before going into bat against them.

 azreal13 wrote:
Legion Of The Damned auto-loses.

Actually auto-loses, not just "is very poor."

They have no exception to reserves arriving from turn 2, and all LotD units must be reserved. Therefore, without allies, a LotD army loses end of turn one.

It'd be a good idea to familiarise yourself with some of the wider arguments before going into bat against them.

To be fair though, while that's usually trotted out as an example of bad rules (and it is), it's also something that no sane person would enforce. So yes, it's indicative of the fact GW glosses over rules, but I think that goes hand in hand with the idea that they expect you to talk to your opponent before a game, so maybe they figured they didn't have to explicitly state that a LotD army needed an exception, because only a total douchebag is going to agree to play a LotD player and then say "Ha, you lose automatically because RULES! Feth you!" at the end of turn one, just because.

That doesn't excuse the fact GW can't write good rules, but it's the type of rule where basically anyone will assume it's a mistake that it was omitted, and anyone who doesn't you probably don't want to play anyways.

 azreal13 wrote:
Legion Of The Damned auto-loses.

Actually auto-loses, not just "is very poor."

They have no exception to reserves arriving from turn 2, and all LotD units must be reserved. Therefore, without allies, a LotD army loses end of turn one.

It'd be a good idea to familiarise yourself with some of the wider arguments before going into bat against them.

Oh cmon.... that book was not what he was referring to. Either way, you are technically correct. LoD auto lose, thats one codex/supplement. He mentioned codex's and referred to the older ones. You know this....

And honestly, its clear to me LOD was more of a supplement to be used with allies or an arranged agreement prior to the game with your opponent of making exceptions. It seems like a far stretch on your part to prove me wrong on my statement of "I do not think any codex is "auto-lose"

So I am wrong about this, and now allow me to amend my statement. Ahem; other than LoD i do not think any other codex is auto-lose.

Okay back to the topic at hand.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Legion Of The Damned auto-loses.

Actually auto-loses, not just "is very poor."

They have no exception to reserves arriving from turn 2, and all LotD units must be reserved. Therefore, without allies, a LotD army loses end of turn one.

It'd be a good idea to familiarise yourself with some of the wider arguments before going into bat against them.

To be fair though, while that's usually trotted out as an example of bad rules (and it is), it's also something that no sane person would enforce. So yes, it's indicative of the fact GW glosses over rules, but I think that goes hand in hand with the idea that they expect you to talk to your opponent before a game, so maybe they figured they didn't have to explicitly state that a LotD army needed an exception, because only a total douchebag is going to agree to play a LotD player and then say "Ha, you lose automatically because RULES! Feth you!" at the end of turn one, just because.

That doesn't excuse the fact GW can't write good rules, but it's the type of rule where basically anyone will assume it's a mistake that it was omitted, and anyone who doesn't you probably don't want to play anyways.

Absolutely, but then, one could make the same argument about every rule or rule interaction, there comes a point where people's personal definition of what is "reasonable" will begin to diverge, and then you get conflict.

Realistically, the only way to write a decent set of rules is assume every player is a douchebag.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tsilber wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Legion Of The Damned auto-loses.

Actually auto-loses, not just "is very poor."

They have no exception to reserves arriving from turn 2, and all LotD units must be reserved. Therefore, without allies, a LotD army loses end of turn one.

It'd be a good idea to familiarise yourself with some of the wider arguments before going into bat against them.

Oh cmon.... that book was not what he was referring to. Either way, you are technically correct. LoD auto lose, thats one codex/supplement. He mentioned codex's and referred to the older ones. You know this....

And honestly, its clear to me LOD was more of a supplement to be used with allies or an arranged agreement prior to the game with your opponent of making exceptions. It seems like a far stretch on your part to prove me wrong on my statement of "I do not think any codex is "auto-lose"

So I am wrong about this, and now allow me to amend my statement. Ahem; other than LoD i do not think any other codex is auto-lose.

Okay back to the topic at hand.

Actually, I assumed that was the book he was referring to.

And here we have a microcosm of why the rules are bad, two people forming completely different opinions based off the same information, both of which are reasonable.

Good thing that the situation is so easily resolved, all we need is the author of the original information to clarify their intent and we can keep moving forward, otherwise we could be here for months arguing in circles.

Tsilber wrote:
Oh cmon.... that book was not what he was referring to. Either way, you are technically correct. LoD auto lose, thats one codex/supplement. He mentioned codex's and referred to the older ones. You know this....

No, he said codex singular.

How about the codex that auto-loses?

 azreal13 wrote:
Legion Of The Damned auto-loses.

Actually auto-loses, not just "is very poor."

They have no exception to reserves arriving from turn 2, and all LotD units must be reserved. Therefore, without allies, a LotD army loses end of turn one.

It'd be a good idea to familiarise yourself with some of the wider arguments before going into bat against them.

So, you're completely ignoring the "Aid From Beyond" special rule, which reads: 'All units from the Legion of the Damned detachment arrive from Reserve at the start of the Legion of the Damned player’s Turn 1. These units must enter play via Deep Strike as normal.'

Given this is only some missions, but they're not always auto-lose.

Yes, I did mean Legion of the Damned as its a perfect example of everything wrong with GW. It has still not been updated to this date on how to fix the issue
My Inquisition and Sisters iCodex books aren't FAQd either, from my understanding. So hurray?

You're being awfully selective in "good things GW has done" the without looking at the big picture. The market has changed and there are better games out there with high quality models, better rules, and lower barrier of entry. Couple this with poor business tactics of GW and you're cooking a recipe for downfall. I've seen more people feeling burned over 7E, or at least "well, I gotta buy it, I guess" instead of excitement. And needing house rulings and FAQs for the core book at $85 is terrible, whether someone likes it or not. A third of the price to entry is a mandatory catalog to boot.

tdub415 wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Legion Of The Damned auto-loses.

Actually auto-loses, not just "is very poor."

They have no exception to reserves arriving from turn 2, and all LotD units must be reserved. Therefore, without allies, a LotD army loses end of turn one.

It'd be a good idea to familiarise yourself with some of the wider arguments before going into bat against them.

So, you're completely ignoring the "Aid From Beyond" special rule, which reads: 'All units from the Legion of the Damned detachment arrive from Reserve at the start of the Legion of the Damned player’s Turn 1. These units must enter play via Deep Strike as normal.'

Given this is only some missions, but they're not always auto-lose.

Nope, I'm realising that it is a special rule that is only applicable to the Apoc formation in the book, and not for use in general games.

EDIT
My bad, it isn't the Apoc formation, it is one specific scenario in the book, so not even available to wider games.

All they'd need to say is that a CA detachment from the LotD codex benefits from this rule and it's fixed.

Now long has it been since the book was released?

tdub415 wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Legion Of The Damned auto-loses.

Actually auto-loses, not just "is very poor."

They have no exception to reserves arriving from turn 2, and all LotD units must be reserved. Therefore, without allies, a LotD army loses end of turn one.

It'd be a good idea to familiarise yourself with some of the wider arguments before going into bat against them.

So, you're completely ignoring the "Aid From Beyond" special rule, which reads: 'All units from the Legion of the Damned detachment arrive from Reserve at the start of the Legion of the Damned player’s Turn 1. These units must enter play via Deep Strike as normal.'

Heh, allow me to amend my amended statement. Ahem; I do not think any codex is auto-lose.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azreal13 wrote:

tdub415 wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Legion Of The Damned auto-loses.

Actually auto-loses, not just "is very poor."

They have no exception to reserves arriving from turn 2, and all LotD units must be reserved. Therefore, without allies, a LotD army loses end of turn one.

It'd be a good idea to familiarise yourself with some of the wider arguments before going into bat against them.

So, you're completely ignoring the "Aid From Beyond" special rule, which reads: 'All units from the Legion of the Damned detachment arrive from Reserve at the start of the Legion of the Damned player’s Turn 1. These units must enter play via Deep Strike as normal.'

Given this is only some missions, but they're not always auto-lose.

Nope, I'm realising that it is a special rule that is only applicable to the Apoc formation in the book, and not for use in general games.

The unit entry in the LoD book has the special rule also it would seem, not just the unit entry in the apoc formation entries.

 slowthar wrote:

 Wayshuba wrote:
and now a $37 single ork model in plastic)

I had to look this up.... mother of god... is that $37 for ONE EFFIN' PLASTIC SPRUE?!Wow.

Sorry, post from a while back but I have to say $37 FOR ONE SPRUE ONE MODEL!!! I need to invest in plastic, not gold.
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Big-Mek-with-Shokk-Attack-Gun

TSLiber, you're confusing "aid unlooked for" and "aid from beyond."

 Talizvar wrote:

 slowthar wrote:

 Wayshuba wrote:
and now a $37 single ork model in plastic)

I had to look this up.... mother of god... is that $37 for ONE EFFIN' PLASTIC SPRUE?!Wow.

Sorry, post from a while back but I have to say $37 FOR ONE SPRUE ONE MODEL!!! I need to invest in plastic, not gold.
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Big-Mek-with-Shokk-Attack-Gun

This may come as surprise.... But holy ****, that is super expensive for one model and pretty greedy on GW part. It will be hard to find the $37 in building, painting, and playing with it...

 azreal13 wrote:

tdub415 wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Legion Of The Damned auto-loses.

Actually auto-loses, not just "is very poor."

They have no exception to reserves arriving from turn 2, and all LotD units must be reserved. Therefore, without allies, a LotD army loses end of turn one.

It'd be a good idea to familiarise yourself with some of the wider arguments before going into bat against them.

So, you're completely ignoring the "Aid From Beyond" special rule, which reads: 'All units from the Legion of the Damned detachment arrive from Reserve at the start of the Legion of the Damned player’s Turn 1. These units must enter play via Deep Strike as normal.'

Given this is only some missions, but they're not always auto-lose.

Nope, I'm realising that it is a special rule that is only applicable to the Apoc formation in the book, and not for use in general games.

Unless my digital copy is wrong, it's a mission rule on the first echoes mission, not a special rule for the apoc formation. There's no need for it on the apoc formation, since in apoc, strategic reserves works differently than normal game reserves. Any unit using the deep strike rule can arrive at the start of any turn you choose, including the first.

 azreal13 wrote:
TSLiber, you're confusing "aid unlooked for" and "aid from beyond."

Heh, see my mind is all over and the more I stay on this thread the more I do not want to play anymore and hate GW. Damn you all! $37 single infantry model, confusing rule sets that look the same. Assumptions of agreements prior to games to get around poorly written auto lose codexs... Im outta here.. lol

I think everyone misses the point: even if LotD does not auto-lose in one mission, it still auto-loses to everything else. The point is that a kind of codex like that is actually worth paying for. Reasonable people would say no.

 heartserenade wrote:
I think everyone misses the point: even if LotD does not auto-lose in one mission, it still auto-loses to everything else. The point is that a kind of codex like that is actually worth paying for. Reasonable people would say no.

Well unless you realize running it alone is auto lose, so you buy it for either the fluff, collectors stand point, or the intention of running it with allies. I mean no one would feel sorry for someone who bought this book, bought all the models and showed up to a game or tournament with the intention of screaming "see GW is bad, I bought this book to prove a point, its a codex that can't win"....

 TheKbob wrote:

Spoiler:

I have purchased GW products this year, but it's all the OOP metal models and a few used kits off eBay to make the Space Marine chapter I wanted to (a combo of Iron Hand + Blood Angels called the Obsidian Spectres). Do I expect ever to play it? No.

The thing with one's opinion is that it's great to have, but it doesn't change reality or fact. Games Workshop is struggling and doing everything a struggling company would do at this point. Since the December to Remember event in 2013, the quality and value proposition for new GW products has gone completely off the rails. The new Ork fat thing is $5~ cheaper than the twice as big Stompa. There is literally no sense to that at all. More so when you see how crazy the plastic kits from Japan are getting these days at an extremely reasonable price.

It's essentially this. Games Workshop is all but lying to their customers. They say they are a models company interested in collecting miniatures, but charge the highest price for rules on the market. You have $50 cash grab books that feature 1-4 units and they call that a codex. You have one codex that cannot legally be ran by itself because it AUTOMATICALLY LOSES. You have boxes being cut in half by the amount of units and the price going up. You have models moved from a a superior metal to resin and the price going up, let alone the resin being some of the worst in the industry. You have $15 rules additions to weak, middling codices that suddenly make them "playable" released only a few weeks later (while deleting large swaths of models from the books that just so happen to correlate strongly to a certain courtcase).

Oh, and court cases... you have a fairly good size company trying to sue book authors and small, third party houses and getting smashed in the face on both cases for intellectual property. You are defending a company that tried to claim copyright on the term "Halberd". There's no depths to that stupidity.

So yes, you can like Games Workshop and have this image in your mind that they can do no wrong and doing great. But your perception is not reality. And like many other issues in today's society, an opinion on a matter doesn't change fact.

And for the record, I love the Warhammer 40k universe and would love for it to be nothing more than awesome. A well priced game with tight rules, a vast community, and are only arguments are "my models are cooler than your models!" type. I'd love to be able to roll up to any table, plop down my army and never worry about "is it too strong or too weak;" will I perceived as TFG or pull back to much and then get tabled by what I perceive as TFG. Where there is no such thing as "chasing the meta" and no one goes years without a new model or rules updates. Where an edition update doesn't complete change large swaths of the game, but actually be a tweak, simplification, and clarification of the rules. Where game changes and new models are openly tested by the community and feedback is given on official forums so that we all know when we purchase the new rules exactly what we are getting and there's never a "bad choice" unit in a codex, just different styles and varieties. Where a "gunline" isn't looked at with disdain and an "assault" based army isn't met with an eye roll and a chuckle. Where the concept of a deathstar is just another army strategy and not a back breaking scenario of I pick my models up while you run the game.

I don't think everyone with a concerned or outright negative opinion of the current state of Warhammer 40k and Games Workshop is wanting to twist the knife or just being "haters." We are all heavily invested gamers who still care about this part of our hobby and want it to be fun and a worthwhile expenditure of our time and money. The fact that the negative concerns are growing, and not the bile spewing hatred of a new book release, but the actual apathetic approach to new product is the status quo. Releases are luke warm these days and tepid in sales, with even the poster children of their product line registering less of an uptick as normally seen.

And lastly, placing all the blame on the players is the most ludicrous and asinine thing I have ever seen. It's a completely shallow and selfish means of saying "it's not a problem for me, just get better friends!" or something along those lines. It's garbage that goes hand in hand with "Forge the Narrative" as a concept. And it does nothing but breed fissures and dissent within the community further making it a negative space.

Tsilber wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
I think everyone misses the point: even if LotD does not auto-lose in one mission, it still auto-loses to everything else. The point is that a kind of codex like that is actually worth paying for. Reasonable people would say no.

Well unless you realize running it alone is auto lose, so you buy it for either the fluff, collectors stand point, or the intention of running it with allies. I mean no one would feel sorry for someone who bought this book, bought all the models and showed up to a game or tournament with the intention of screaming "see GW is bad, I bought this book to prove a point, its a codex that can't win"....

Would you buy a paint pot that is advertised that it can be used on its own, but in reality it doesn't do gak unless you mix it with other paints? And it's priced the same as other paints who can actually do things on their own? If you were a company, would selling a clearly defective product like this a good business decision?

Instead of blaming the customers, isn't it the company's responsibility to make a non-defective product in the first place? Do you think it's unreasonable to ask for a non-defective product for the price point they're asking?

Lastly, do you think they should charge that much for a codex that almost always auto-loses while other codices will do fine on their own?