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dereksatkinson wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

If someone has a problem with GW, clearly it is because they're damaged, and no issue can possibly be valid or justified, and no emotional response is allowed, even if the person feels that something that represents thousands of hours of time investment and potentially thousands in financial is having the enjoyment it brought taken away.

No sir.

If you are disappointed with your purchase, a rational person would act accordingly. They wouldn't sit online complaining all day for several years. They would find an alternative and move on. They wouldn't be obsessively bashing the product for 6+ months. That takes a special kind of psychosis. I don't care what the product is, a normal person would move on.

If someone has a minor complaint and has constructive criticism, I can see discussions popping up from time to time on how to make a product better. I don't see nearly as much of that as I see the former.

Derek: You are assuming that the customer is OK with abandoning sunk costs.

@Keezus: Very good point. People get emotionally attached to things because of prior investment of time/money/emotion/whatever, and thereafter often have a hard time making rational decisions in the current environment.

http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/03/25/the-sunk-cost-fallacy/

There's also the assumption that it is a voluntary thing.

I may be ok with everything GW does and produces, if all my friends who play feel differently and quit, however, where does that leave me?

@Azreal: Your friends are just haters. Real friends would never abandon a sinking ship and leave you on board alone... They should sink with you!

Oh, I've still got plenty of opponents, I was just hypothesising!

With job changes, relocations, people starting uni etc, as well as an apparent recent drop off in interest, it could very well be me by the New Year though.

It only took 32 pages to get to this point from both sides.

Perhaps the more appropriate title for this thread is the future of tabletop gaming. I don't see much reason to defend GW, and I say this as a person who still buys and paints GW models. I plan to buy 7th edition when the rules only book comes out, and I plan on playing the game with a few friends that have been doing models for a decade or so at least.

But business is all about recruiting new customers, and that is what I can't see happening in masse for GW. My viewpoint is based on my own experience. I don't read financial reports, but I do bring something of an outsiders perspective based on the fact that I shelved my army about 10 years ago and only in the past year started painting again. This is what has changed.

Since getting back into 40k, I've had a lot of conversations with my original crew about getting their models out and having a game sometime. The attitude they take this with is similar to offering a recovered alcoholic an invite to a keg party with all his old friends. There is a glimmer of want in his eye, but a more powerful restraint against participating. They've all reminisced a little bit about the game, but no one has actually taken any steps to get involved again.

So I was left to go to the FLGS in my area. There are 2 main ones that I go to, and no official GW store, which from what I understand is becoming more and more the case here in the US.

You go in, and everything is as it was 10 years ago, except now there's an equal presence for Warmachine/Hordes. There are still gamers in the back at any point in time, and they mostly play card games. Not much change.

But here is the chink in GW's armor, IMO. When you speak to retailers that do not work for GW, they are going to steer you towards warmachine, infinity, or some other mineature game. Almost all the staff I've spoken to HAS 40k armies, and they'll help you with any questions, but in any conversation of any weight at all, they almost ALWAYS bring up the fact that they either no longer play 40k at all, or very rarely play it and then pitch you on a game that they like better.

I'm not sure if this is simply because retailers have a better profit margin from competitors or what, but this is what I noticed from my first several visits to the FLGS. Mostly during conversations about painting because I needed help re buying my old colors with new names that are awful, by the way.

So anyway a while goes by and I have a decent urge to go get my ass kicked in a real game. I had asked if many people still came to the open game night on thursdays. Of course, they said. We have a couple dozen people that show up, usually not all at once but a good group. Awesome.

I show up for one with my army, and guess what? Not a single 40k or warhammer game to be had. Its ALL other games. I ended up going out of my way to the further store because they have roughly 7 people there that do play 40k on a thursday night, and you get 20% discount for playing there. Why play anywhere else if you're going to play this game?

But the numbers are evident of an obvious tide shift for this market, and I'm not saying GW goes under tomorrow or net year, or ever, but when you see what little incentive a retailer has to pitch 40k as compared to other games, and you see the popularity shifting from one side to the other, its just undeniable.

It is extremely hard to get people to justify starting this game. I have tried and failed a half a dozen times in the past year. GW seems to think they are the Rolex watch of mineatures, and I do believe their minis look the best. I love painting them, but its just not enough IMO to keep the king of the mountain status long term.

The tide of new customers seems to be more and more open to other options and this is not a good thing for games workshop, and most unfortunately players such as myself who have so much time alone invested in building an army that people look at and say, "wow, I want one of those!" That's what got me into the hobby was seeing my cousin's amazing painted models and asking him how I could start my own. Back then, a box of 5 marines was 12.50.

I don't want to go on a price rant, but honestly the idea that I could have started this hobby at the age I started it at 14 some odd years ago is a bleak prospect.

My point is, IF GW is alienating LONG TERM customers, which it seems to me they are, it is even worse alienation for potential new customers. And in a world where the competition is out there working really hard to displace you, you just can't afford the type of complacency we see from GW. GW is only increasing the quality of their models, NOT the overall value of what the customer gets and it can only take you so far.

dereksatkinson wrote:


If you are disappointed with your purchase, a rational person would act accordingly. They wouldn't sit online complaining all day for several years. They would find an alternative and move on. They wouldn't be obsessively bashing the product for 6+ months. That takes a special kind of psychosis. I don't care what the product is, a normal person would move on.

Perhaps you can look at your own post and apply it to yourself.

Bullockist wrote:

dereksatkinson wrote:


If you are disappointed with your purchase, a rational person would act accordingly. They wouldn't sit online complaining all day for several years. They would find an alternative and move on. They wouldn't be obsessively bashing the product for 6+ months. That takes a special kind of psychosis. I don't care what the product is, a normal person would move on.

Perhaps you can look at your own post and apply it to yourself.

You know, if you look at the thread from 2006 and this current thread, it appears there are only two posters that have appeared in both.

Saldiven wrote:
You know, if you look at the thread from 2006 and this current thread, it appears there are only two posters that have appeared in both.

To be fair... as a poster from Olde Dakka, few of the prolific posters from yesteryear are still active... Migsula, ArchMagos Alchemeys, Snord, Drew Riggio, Hivefleet and Waaagh Gonads have all but disappeared into the mists of time.

Saldiven wrote:
You know, if you look at the thread from 2006 and this current thread, it appears there are only two posters that have appeared in both.

And it was equally as biased.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 keezus wrote:

To be fair... as a poster from Olde Dakka, few of the prolific posters from yesteryear are still active... Migsula, ArchMagos Alchemeys, Snord, Drew Riggio, Hivefleet and Waaagh Gonads have all but disappeared into the mists of time.

Or picked up new screennames

 keezus wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
You know, if you look at the thread from 2006 and this current thread, it appears there are only two posters that have appeared in both.

To be fair... as a poster from Olde Dakka, few of the prolific posters from yesteryear are still active... Migsula, ArchMagos Alchemeys, Snord, Drew Riggio, Hivefleet and Waaagh Gonads have all but disappeared into the mists of time.

I was merely wondering how indicative it might be of a group of people who did, in fact, actually move onto other things.

You know, this might sound odd, but I actually kind of miss Mauleed's abrasiveness. I don't think there has been anyone on Dakka since him that could so consistently rub people the wrong way, and simultaneously be so unapologetic about it.

 keezus wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
You know, if you look at the thread from 2006 and this current thread, it appears there are only two posters that have appeared in both.

To be fair... as a poster from Olde Dakka, few of the prolific posters from yesteryear are still active... Migsula, ArchMagos Alchemeys, Snord, Drew Riggio, Hivefleet and Waaagh Gonads have all but disappeared into the mists of time.

I remember all of those names

I think that over time though people eventually realize that GW isn't going to listen to anything, and just give up.

Kilkrazy wrote:GW's results show their profits increased faster than their turnover which broadly indicates they became more efficient, over the past few years.

The big changeover came in 2009 to 2010 when they clearly dumped a crapton of costs boosting their profit nearly £10 M on almost no revenue increase.

We're going to likely see this again in the report coming up. They just finished a major restructuring of their administration and the closing of regional HQs and the consolidation of administration in Nottingham. The half year that just finished is the first one where they will be showing the full cost saves from that restructuring. If they report their number of employees by department like they have in previous reports, I think we'll see the admin numbers come down in proportion to the previous declines in manufacturing and sales numbers.

Revenue will be down for the year, but profit will likely be alright. This is one of the effects of GW's pricing strategy. If revenue = units sold x price and you increase price and units sold goes down, all the while revenue stays flat, you're making and selling less units. This provides the opportunity to cut staff, close departments, distribute and ship less goods and generally have less costs. It's how you manage a shrinking business. The funny thing though, is that it will be passed off as a good thing. The opposite of a growing company expanding it's market and market share will be passed off in the notes in the financial report as being "increasingly efficient" or "protecting our margins" or "reaping the rewards of our restructuring plan."

---

To comment on this idea that it's irrational to discuss a company you are not currently a customer of, all I can say is that it's okay for people to find discussing things enjoyable, even if you don't. I am a former GW customer and am waiting patiently for them to release a product or game that I might want. And in the mean time, I find the business side of things interesting. If I was a member on a digital audio forum and stopped buying Apple products in favour of something else (and maybe a new iPhone will one day be the type of product I want) I very well might still comment in a thread on the business side of Apple because I find it interesting.

There is nothing irrational or hateful or negative about that. So Derek's group attack on thread participants is totally baseless. And attacks like that are often the last resort of people who don't have any evidence to support their assertions.

 frozenwastes wrote:

To comment on this idea that it's irrational to discuss a company you are not currently a customer of, all I can say is that it's okay for people to find discussing things enjoyable, even if you don't. I am a former GW customer and am waiting patiently for them to release a product or game that I might want. And in the mean time, I find the business side of things interesting. If I was a member on a digital audio forum and stopped buying Apple products in favour of something else (and maybe a new iPhone will one day be the type of product I want) I very well might still comment in a thread on the business side of Apple because I find it interesting.

There is nothing irrational or hateful or negative about that. So Derek's group attack on thread participants is totally baseless. And attacks like that are often the last resort of people who don't have any evidence to support their assertions.

It's more than that. GW is a big part of this industry. If you are interested in this industry, at all, you should be clued into what is going on with GW. It would be like following what Apple does even if you dislike Apple and are an avid Android user. What Apple does in the smartphone market is terribly important (as well as other markets). It just is.

If GW falls apart, that will have a huge impact on the market. GW's prices and business practices influence the market and the behavior of competitors. GW's IP enforcement polices have long had a significant impact on the market.

Simply put, GW is a big fish in a small pond. If you care about what is going on in that pond, you should have an eye on what's happening with that big fish.

weeble1000 wrote:
Simply put, GW is a big fish in a small pond. If you care about what is going on in that pond, you should have an eye on what's happening with that big fish.

A very good point. And well said.

The next time someone realizes that they have no evidence for the things they say and the moving of the goal posts starts to fail and they bring up this last resort idea that it's irrational to talk about GW if you're no longer their customer, I'll link back to your post.

rich1231 wrote:
GW wanted and still want to follow a selective distribution model, similar to that followed by Luxury brands in fashion and cosmetics etc. However they I am sure didn't figure for the entire marketplace shifting as it has done under their feet as they do it so they get hurt twice as hard in the process.

I still maintain that if they can get enough profitable single employee locations and manage their costs as the company shrinks, they can survive in this segmented market they're trying to create, even if they end up being much smaller in the process due to massive volume declines caused by both price increases and reduced retail hours.

Their current treatment of their trade partners as adversaries is just ridiculous. If a independent stockist finds a business model that works to sell large quantities of products, you don't enforce a policy change to shut that down. And you don't reduce the product line they can carry. And you certainly don't give them artificial limits on the volume of product they can order.

They claimed they could grow to £300m a year publicly a few years ago, they seem to have lost the appetite or capability to attain proper growth.

There's no capacity for growth in their current plan. Their plan is all about reducing capacity to save money. And when they do get a cash reserve, instead of finding a way to expand their sales base with it, they just pay it out as a dividend rather than reinvest it.

Well now we have all these Grand Ideas on how to Run GW shall we be setting up a Kickstarter for 6 billion to by them out, any ideas for stretch goals that doesn't result in kidnapping MDs?

 P4Painting wrote:
Well now we have all these Grand Ideas on how to Run GW shall we be setting up a Kickstarter for 6 billion to by them out, any ideas for stretch goals that doesn't result in kidnapping MDs?

As a Director who controls several million dollars in funds and about 100 employees, I wouldn't want to inherit the mess that is GW PLC. A CEO going in after the decades of petty despotism under current management would face conditions similar to trying to make people like Microsoft again...

dereksatkinson wrote:
... bitter socially awkward...

So now you're just going to start out-and-out insulting groups of people at this website?

Your entertainment value has waned, and your inability to listen to anyone in this thread and the way you instantly resort to dismissive and inflammatory statements makes you not worth reading. You have become the very definition of a modern GW White Knight. Polish your armour with pride Derek, 'cause ain't no one here's gonna do it for ya.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

dereksatkinson wrote:
... bitter socially awkward...

So now you're just going to start out-and-out insulting groups of people at this website?

Jean-Jacques Rousseau wrote:Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong.

People leave forums on a subject matter when they move on, usually. I was huge into Diablo 2 forums when I was playing the game, writing guides, and diggin' into PVP.

If I truly ever stopped caring about 40k entirely, I'd probably stop coming here. Maybe for the news and the pretty pictures, but not for much else since the other games all have active, company hosted forums to talk smack on.

The sign you are done isn't hatred, but apathy.

 TheKbob wrote:
People leave forums on a subject matter when they move on, usually. I was huge into Diablo 2 forums when I was playing the game, writing guides, and diggin' into PVP.

If I truly ever stopped caring about 40k entirely, I'd probably stop coming here. Maybe for the news and the pretty pictures, but not for much else since the other games all have active, company hosted forums to talk smack on.

The sign you are done isn't hatred, but apathy.

Well said. And when it comes to our passions, such as GW gaming, apathy is much, much worse than hatred.

weeble1000 wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:

To comment on this idea that it's irrational to discuss a company you are not currently a customer of, all I can say is that it's okay for people to find discussing things enjoyable, even if you don't. I am a former GW customer and am waiting patiently for them to release a product or game that I might want. And in the mean time, I find the business side of things interesting. If I was a member on a digital audio forum and stopped buying Apple products in favour of something else (and maybe a new iPhone will one day be the type of product I want) I very well might still comment in a thread on the business side of Apple because I find it interesting.

There is nothing irrational or hateful or negative about that. So Derek's group attack on thread participants is totally baseless. And attacks like that are often the last resort of people who don't have any evidence to support their assertions.

It's more than that. GW is a big part of this industry. If you are interested in this industry, at all, you should be clued into what is going on with GW. It would be like following what Apple does even if you dislike Apple and are an avid Android user. What Apple does in the smartphone market is terribly important (as well as other markets). It just is.

If GW falls apart, that will have a huge impact on the market. GW's prices and business practices influence the market and the behavior of competitors. GW's IP enforcement polices have long had a significant impact on the market.

Simply put, GW is a big fish in a small pond. If you care about what is going on in that pond, you should have an eye on what's happening with that big fish.

That, in a nutshell, is the only reason that I do not actively want GW to fail.

I would have a hard time caring less about GW than I do now - but its fall will affect companies that I do like and respect - and I even like and respect one of GW's subsidiaries.

Without GW Victoria Lamb, Kromlech, Maxmini, Chapterhouse Studios, and many others, would be having a hard time - and they produce fantastic products - ones that I like much, much more than the current run of GW.

The Auld Grump

 TheKbob wrote:
People leave forums on a subject matter when they move on, usually. I was huge into Diablo 2 forums when I was playing the game, writing guides, and diggin' into PVP.

If I truly ever stopped caring about 40k entirely, I'd probably stop coming here. Maybe for the news and the pretty pictures, but not for much else since the other games all have active, company hosted forums to talk smack on.

The sign you are done isn't hatred, but apathy.

But the Hobby is not just 40K , i played Stalingrad, Warzone, Chronopia, Rackham's Confrontation, Void, played most GW games (except the LORD of RINGS stuff and warhammer fantasy), and now i am into Bolt Action and Dust Tactics/Warfare, and am thinking of starting Infinity.

The amount i spent on GW because of their policies has dwindled of the years to almost nothing, so even do if i would stop with the HHHobby, i would still come here because i am a wargame nerd.

And Mr. Atkinson, generalizing and insulting those who do not agree with GW policies or your view on the situation, says more about your personality.
But you will put the blame on the us again anyway and not on the almighty GW that can do no wrong. People usually get passionate about things they love.

I recently left GW but I still love the 40k universe and I'm very interested to see what happens with GW in the next year or two. I want to like them again, but there needs to be some drastic changes first. I've sold one army but I'm keeping my SOB army just in case things do turn around, which I want.

But honestly, I don't see that happening. Their business model is unsustainable.

I think Derek is still suffering from the mentality that makes it impossible to separate 40K from GW, and vice versa.

I don't like GW. The way they treat their customers, their predatory interactions with other companies, their complete disregard for even a modicum of social media interaction, their insane and inane pricing and retail strategy, and the utter incompetence when it comes to writing a cogent, coherent and concise set of rules are all reasons to dislike them.

But 40K? Why would any of the above make me stop liking 40K? I still like the vast majority of their miniatures, I think their artwork is amazing, I love the universe and the potential stories within. Hell, if I hated 40K... why would I be working with FFG to write various 40K RPG books?

I know I've posted this about a million times already, but it still surprises me how often people here don't seem to get it:

Not liking GW =/= not liking 40K.
Liking 40K =/= liking GW.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


Not liking GW =/= not liking 40K.
Liking 40K =/= liking GW.

weeble1000 wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:

To comment on this idea that it's irrational to discuss a company you are not currently a customer of, all I can say is that it's okay for people to find discussing things enjoyable, even if you don't. I am a former GW customer and am waiting patiently for them to release a product or game that I might want. And in the mean time, I find the business side of things interesting. If I was a member on a digital audio forum and stopped buying Apple products in favour of something else (and maybe a new iPhone will one day be the type of product I want) I very well might still comment in a thread on the business side of Apple because I find it interesting.

There is nothing irrational or hateful or negative about that. So Derek's group attack on thread participants is totally baseless. And attacks like that are often the last resort of people who don't have any evidence to support their assertions.

It's more than that. GW is a big part of this industry. If you are interested in this industry, at all, you should be clued into what is going on with GW. It would be like following what Apple does even if you dislike Apple and are an avid Android user. What Apple does in the smartphone market is terribly important (as well as other markets). It just is.

If GW falls apart, that will have a huge impact on the market. GW's prices and business practices influence the market and the behavior of competitors. GW's IP enforcement polices have long had a significant impact on the market.

It will be an impact but not as huge one IMHO. People are still giving credit that GW is an 800 pound gorilla in the hobby. Well it is not. More or less they are working on an illusion of strength as they perceive themselves back in 2000.

Nature Abhors a vacuum and when GW goes away there will be plenty of companies taking what's left of their customer base.
Simply put, GW is a big fish in a small pond. If you care about what is going on in that pond, you should have an eye on what's happening with that big fish.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think Derek is still suffering from the mentality that makes it impossible to separate 40K from GW, and vice versa.

I don't like GW. The way they treat their customers, their predatory interactions with other companies, their complete disregard for even a modicum of social media interaction, their insane and inane pricing and retail strategy, and the utter incompetence when it comes to writing a cogent, coherent and concise set of rules are all reasons to dislike them.

But 40K? Why would any of the above make me stop liking 40K? I still like the vast majority of their miniatures, I think their artwork is amazing, I love the universe and the potential stories within. Hell, if I hated 40K... why would I be working with FFG to write various 40K RPG books?

I know I've posted this about a million times already, but it still surprises me how often people here don't seem to get it:

Not liking GW =/= not liking 40K.
Liking 40K =/= liking GW.

Please stop. My neck is getting sore from agreeing with you too much

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

It will be an impact but not as huge one IMHO. People are still giving credit that GW is an 800 pound gorilla in the hobby. Well it is not. More or less they are working on an illusion of strength as they perceive themselves back in 2000.

Nature Abhors a vacuum and when GW goes away there will be plenty of companies taking what's left of their customer base.

There are quite a few examples in business of the opposite; lose a market leader and smaller competitors don't pick up all those sales. Instead, the size of the market diminishes.

Personally, I don't spend too much time worrying about GW, there are many businesses that aren't run the way I'd like and life is too short. There's a big But, though: their efforts at recruitment (of young wargamers) affect not just their own sales, but those of other businesses, too. I suspect that it's in recruitment that they're failing, in particular, and this will have knock-on effects for the whole sector.