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I quite like the Iron Hands chapter, was even considering them for a 30k force, but I can't seem to get past the seeming logic fail of:

Take on blessed and holy biological geneseed upgrade, become massively more powerful in all regards... then start hacking bits of very valuable biological real estate off yourself to replace with bionics... the same tech used by everyone else in the imperium...

I get marines replaces smushed bits with bionics, it looks cool for a start, but removing healthy limbs, healthy superhuman limbs, to stick on random robot bits... I don't get it.

'The flesh is weak'

Iron Hands act by this.

The new fluff gets even worse, as they now kinda sorta hate their own Primarch too?

 Alpharius wrote:
The new fluff gets even worse, as they now kinda sorta hate their own Primarch too?

In fairness, 10,000 years of repeating "The Flesh is Weak" and hearing how Ferrus was the first Primarch to fall is bound to mess with your head.
Hell it didn't even take Abaddon that long before he came out with:

Horus was weak. Horus was a fool...

If you're talking 30k, then that's not at all how they operate.

The reason they had extensive bionics during the great crusade was because getting replacement vat-grown appendages took longer and would slow down the expedition fleets. Attaching a bionic was significantly faster and got the marine back onto the battlefield much sooner. It's all made very clear in their write up in Massacre.

 Alpharius wrote:
The new fluff gets even worse, as they now kinda sorta hate their own Primarch too?

The Iron Hands hate pretty much everything. Even themselves

The Iron Hands despise weakness above all. Ferrus Manus was defeated and killed, so he was weak. Otherwise he wouldn't have died.
And why did Ferrus Manus fail? Because he was a hothead and let his emotions get the best of him. The Iron Hands, as children of Ferrus Manus, all share this flaw.
This is a weakness, and thus it must be purged. Now what absolutely lacks emotions and hotheadedness?
Exactly, machines.
The Iron Hands thus started to purge their irrational, hot-headed and emotional flesh and human nature in favour of the cold logic and reasoning of the machine. The Flesh is Weak.
They had always been close to the AdMech, who share the same belief, but it was not until Ferrus Manus died that their obsession with machinery went out of control. Their irrational hatred for weakness is really a sort of trauma because of the death of their Primarch, just as the Blood Angels have the Black Rage.

The Clan Raukaan supplement however, has them coming back to their senses again as they realise that their extreme obsession with machinery, irrational hatred for weakness and all their supressed emotions and angst have become weaknesses in their own right.

It's important to note that Space Marines don't see themselves as upgraded humans. They see themselves as basically an entirely different species. They're not humans, they're Astartes. They don't see their creation as the manufacture of supersoldiers, but as their birth. It's not a bad idea, either - Iron Hands are known for such feats of strength as wielding a bolter in each hand, for example.

Furthermore, their bionics aren't equal. However improved over your previous arm, a bionic arm is still attached to the rest of your body. If you wore a cybernetic appendage that was strong enough to lift a Leman Russ, you'd snap your own spine and pulp your ribcage without much effort. A Space Marine can take much more of that physical strain.

The thing that is impractical and silly about Space Marine bionics (not just Iron Hands) is that they aren't covered by armour. That is, instead of replacing a missing limb with a prosthesis that is compatible with power armour (or at the very least, adding power armour-equivalent plating to the bionic), they leave them with pistons, joints, hydraulics and all manner of interior components exposed. This is plain idiocy, but the obvious reason is to make such cybernetics plainly obvious from a modelling perspective.

EDIT: My Marines show cybernetics by painting the relevant section of their power armour silver.

"We take ordinary bodies and make them better," she admitted. "We do so because we desire to improve on what we were born with. The Iron Hands cannot make their bodies better, since they are aready perfect. Nevertheless, still they amputate their limbs in favour of metal parts and aspire to the state of machine-hood. Why? Because they fear the flesh, lord general. They look at it in the mirror of their minds and they see something loathsome."

Magos Ys during the Shardenus campaign

Have you read Wrath of Iron: for me this really gets to the heart of the Iron Hands and is a great grimdark novel.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/wrath-of-iron.html

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I quite like the Iron Hands chapter, was even considering them for a 30k force, but I can't seem to get past the seeming logic fail of:

Take on blessed and holy biological geneseed upgrade, become massively more powerful in all regards... then start hacking bits of very valuable biological real estate off yourself to replace with bionics... the same tech used by everyone else in the imperium...

I get marines replaces smushed bits with bionics, it looks cool for a start, but removing healthy limbs, healthy superhuman limbs, to stick on random robot bits... I don't get it.

I have been bothered by the same thing for a very very long time.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The thing that is impractical and silly about Space Marine bionics (not just Iron Hands) is that they aren't covered by armour. That is, instead of replacing a missing limb with a prosthesis that is compatible with power armour (or at the very least, adding power armour-equivalent plating to the bionic), they leave them with pistons, joints, hydraulics and all manner of interior components exposed. This is plain idiocy, but the obvious reason is to make such cybernetics plainly obvious from a modelling perspective.

In 30k, the vast majority of missing limbs are vat-grown limbs and are virtually indistinguishable from the original limb. In 40k, most chapters don't have the luxury of astartes-grade vat-grown replacement limbs, and certainly not in the number they'd need for continuous use across all companies. So the use of bionics is more out of necessity. In addition, the bionics they do use are STC pattern, and so changing it in a way to where it would be able to fit underneath power armor is basically out of the question.

There is Only war has a short story near the end about a command squad of Iron Hands that delves deep into a Nurgle infested Hive(after the chapter having mostly cleansed the world) told from the viewpoint of a PDF colonel. It talks about the squad leader and his initiation, and several ritual bionic replacements as little additions to the story going on and how he had lost his humanity during all this. It was a junior member who had not gone through as much who reminded him that the PDF will not be able to win against the plague zombies without their help, and so they give the item they came for to the pilot servitors on their storm raven and return to help save the hive.

jareddm wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The thing that is impractical and silly about Space Marine bionics (not just Iron Hands) is that they aren't covered by armour. That is, instead of replacing a missing limb with a prosthesis that is compatible with power armour (or at the very least, adding power armour-equivalent plating to the bionic), they leave them with pistons, joints, hydraulics and all manner of interior components exposed. This is plain idiocy, but the obvious reason is to make such cybernetics plainly obvious from a modelling perspective.

In 30k, the vast majority of missing limbs are vat-grown limbs and are virtually indistinguishable from the original limb. In 40k, most chapters don't have the luxury of astartes-grade vat-grown replacement limbs, and certainly not in the number they'd need for continuous use across all companies. So the use of bionics is more out of necessity. In addition, the bionics they do use are STC pattern, and so changing it in a way to where it would be able to fit underneath power armor is basically out of the question.

They'd hardly be an STC if they're made to-scale with Space Marines, including Space Marines in TDA. Furthermore, there is absolutely no way that the Techmarines of any Chapter - never mind the Iron Hands themselves - would not have the technical ability to modify them. Especially not something as simple as affixing ceramite plates to the bionics to give them some protection.

I love the Iron Hands and have a 30K Iron Hands army. From what I remember, the Iron Hands started to try to emulate their Primarch and his metal hands. So they began replacing their own parts with machines but mostly on an as needed basis. Ferrus is probably the strongest primarch in terms of physical strength. In the 30K rules, he wields a hammer at full initiative, completely unassisted by power armor (he has a tank top for power armor) that is considered unwieldy by Perturabo in power armor. Metal became the Iron Hand's ideal of strength.

From the beginning the Iron Hands hated weakness too. Even when Ferrus was around, the Iron Hands had the Immortals. Immortals were people who had failed their mission and failed to die trying to complete it. So the Immortals were a suicide squad meant to be the last chance for redemption.

But it got WAY worse when their Primarch died. It became a sort of self mutilation to repent for their failure. They believe that if they were stronger they could have saved their Primarch. Iron Hands also blame the Raven Guard and Salamanders for being weak and that weakness contributing to Ferrus' death.

The Iron Hands hate anything "Weak" including their own flesh.

To an extent, they are correct. All the might of all the races has come from, ultimately, their technology. Even Space Marines and the mighty Primarchs themselves are a product of technology. While it wouldn't be practical for all Astartes to receive extensive bionics, we know the Iron Hands' methods work - dual-wielding bolters (unfortunately they have no ability to do this in the rules, but my Aspiring Champions with combi-bolters totally will) and being noticeably hardier (currently represented by Feel No Pain).

Like the Salamanders, their culture results in greater skill in mechanics which has a noticeable impact on the quality of their vehicles and gear, although they obviously take it to a far greater extreme than the Salamanders do.

EDIT: From the perspective of an Iron Hand, the body of an Astartes is likely considered to be a sort of baseline. Its merits are all technological, after all. Replacing a limb or organ with a superior mechanical version isn't seen in the same light as we might see it. To them, it's like replacing a rusty exhaust on a bike, or something.

Bionics are a fusion of man and machine
some of the cybernetic upgrades are purely mechanical, some are an upgrade of both the flesh and the machine.

The process that produces a space marine is also a lot of implants and some of them are bionic, they are an improvement and replacement of some of the flesh.

"The flesh is weak" is basically we are all weak and the original flesh was weak. The body needs to be improved as much as possible, but any means possible(so long as it isnt chaosy)

 Iron_Captain wrote:

The Clan Raukaan supplement however, has them coming back to their senses again as they realise that their extreme obsession with machinery, irrational hatred for weakness and all their supressed emotions and angst have become weaknesses in their own right.

I hadn't heard that yet - thanks for sharing it!

The "Clan Raukaan" supplement is the one that is getting a lot of heat for "F'ing Up" the Iron Hands background!

I think a quote from the CSM codex might actually be useful here:

"Mankind is limited by his mortal nature. Demons are ultimately insubstantial of form, and the machines, though physically indomitable, are all but inert. Because of this, all Warpsmiths are engaged in an eternal quest to combine the strengths of all three elements whiles eradicating their weaknesses... The Warpsmiths themselves seek to embody this unholy fusion of man, machine, and demon; in their search for the perfect form, they often become more metal than flesh."

So take this idea, and then strip out the demon stuff, and you've got the mechanicum and by extension, the iron hands.

Super-human flesh is much better than regular flesh, but it's a mere transitory upgrade on the way to the even better mechanical parts. Of course, there are going to be some parts that are irreplaceable, but those parts that are? Might as well get to work on improving them sooner, rather than later.

 Mr Morden wrote:

"We take ordinary bodies and make them better," she admitted. "We do so because we desire to improve on what we were born with. The Iron Hands cannot make their bodies better, since they are aready perfect. Nevertheless, still they amputate their limbs in favour of metal parts and aspire to the state of machine-hood. Why? Because they fear the flesh, lord general. They look at it in the mirror of their minds and they see something loathsome."

Magos Ys during the Shardenus campaign

Have you read Wrath of Iron: for me this really gets to the heart of the Iron Hands and is a great grimdark novel.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/wrath-of-iron.html

I thought the Iron Hands were kind of neat and I wanted more fluff on them. Than I read that book. Now I utterly detest the Iron Hands more than any other legion/chapter in all of 40k.

 Galdos wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

"We take ordinary bodies and make them better," she admitted. "We do so because we desire to improve on what we were born with. The Iron Hands cannot make their bodies better, since they are aready perfect. Nevertheless, still they amputate their limbs in favour of metal parts and aspire to the state of machine-hood. Why? Because they fear the flesh, lord general. They look at it in the mirror of their minds and they see something loathsome."

Magos Ys during the Shardenus campaign

Have you read Wrath of Iron: for me this really gets to the heart of the Iron Hands and is a great grimdark novel.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/wrath-of-iron.html

I thought the Iron Hands were kind of neat and I wanted more fluff on them. Than I read that book. Now I utterly detest the Iron Hands more than any other legion/chapter in all of 40k.

I tend to agree and I think that was the point - the Iron Hands are a case of the cure may be as bad as the disease, certainly the loses suffered by all Imperial and civilian parties during that campain was horrific. Its was very good 40k IMO

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I quite like the Iron Hands chapter, was even considering them for a 30k force, but I can't seem to get past the seeming logic fail of:

Take on blessed and holy biological geneseed upgrade, become massively more powerful in all regards... then start hacking bits of very valuable biological real estate off yourself to replace with bionics... the same tech used by everyone else in the imperium...

I get marines replaces smushed bits with bionics, it looks cool for a start, but removing healthy limbs, healthy superhuman limbs, to stick on random robot bits... I don't get it.

Flesh is weak. The bionics actually make the Iron Hands stronger and more durable than your average Astartes, much like the Raven Guard they are for all intensive purposes "super marines". The problem however is that this disdain for their flesh has caused them to develop weakness in spirit, something that Ferrus Manus was going to try to fix before Fulgrim lobbed off his head.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
It's important to note that Space Marines don't see themselves as upgraded humans. They see themselves as basically an entirely different species. They're not humans, they're Astartes. They don't see their creation as the manufacture of supersoldiers, but as their birth. It's not a bad idea, either - Iron Hands are known for such feats of strength as wielding a bolter in each hand, for example.

Furthermore, their bionics aren't equal. However improved over your previous arm, a bionic arm is still attached to the rest of your body. If you wore a cybernetic appendage that was strong enough to lift a Leman Russ, you'd snap your own spine and pulp your ribcage without much effort. A Space Marine can take much more of that physical strain.

The thing that is impractical and silly about Space Marine bionics (not just Iron Hands) is that they aren't covered by armour. That is, instead of replacing a missing limb with a prosthesis that is compatible with power armour (or at the very least, adding power armour-equivalent plating to the bionic), they leave them with pistons, joints, hydraulics and all manner of interior components exposed. This is plain idiocy, but the obvious reason is to make such cybernetics plainly obvious from a modelling perspective.

EDIT: My Marines show cybernetics by painting the relevant section of their power armour silver.

Except you're forgetting that their cybernetics are stronger than their own armor, as IIRC they're made out of pure admantanium. Some of them are so heavily upgraded as well that they could very likely flip a tank like a Chimera without endangering biological parts- there's barely any left.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Except you're forgetting that their cybernetics are stronger than their own armor, as IIRC they're made out of pure admantanium. Some of them are so heavily upgraded as well that they could very likely flip a tank like a Chimera without endangering biological parts- there's barely any left.

It doesn't matter what it's made of, it's never a good idea to leave tiny pistons and other relatively delicate internal components exposed for no good reason. If they can make these things from pure adamantium, why not a few simple adamantium plates? They're made of strong material, but they're completely unarmoured - any damage to one of those tiny pistons is going to severely impair the limb's function. Even ceramite plating would only increase its protection. However, making them from pure adamantium is, as the title says, "logic fail". It's apparently so rare that it only ribs the rare and expensive Terminator armour, which is specifically designed to be as hardy as possible. If they have access to enough of it to make bionic limbs, they really should be making armour components out of it rather than prosthetics - a PA suit with a near-pure adamantium breastplate and helmet, for example. It's not Marvel adamantium, so it's not indestructible. That tiny piston would really be better off with a ceramite plate over it, at least. Better yet, make the things from lesser materials and then plate them in adamantium!

You know, I feel like I've read that they're made from adamantium somewhere as well, but I'm not finding any reference to it in the Clan Raukaan, BRB, or SM books.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Except you're forgetting that their cybernetics are stronger than their own armor, as IIRC they're made out of pure admantanium. Some of them are so heavily upgraded as well that they could very likely flip a tank like a Chimera without endangering biological parts- there's barely any left.

It doesn't matter what it's made of, it's never a good idea to leave tiny pistons and other relatively delicate internal components exposed for no good reason. If they can make these things from pure adamantium, why not a few simple adamantium plates? They're made of strong material, but they're completely unarmoured - any damage to one of those tiny pistons is going to severely impair the limb's function. Even ceramite plating would only increase its protection. However, making them from pure adamantium is, as the title says, "logic fail". It's apparently so rare that it only ribs the rare and expensive Terminator armour, which is specifically designed to be as hardy as possible. If they have access to enough of it to make bionic limbs, they really should be making armour components out of it rather than prosthetics - a PA suit with a near-pure adamantium breastplate and helmet, for example. It's not Marvel adamantium, so it's not indestructible. That tiny piston would really be better off with a ceramite plate over it, at least. Better yet, make the things from lesser materials and then plate them in adamantium!

You know, I feel like I've read that they're made from adamantium somewhere as well, but I'm not finding any reference to it in the Clan Raukaan, BRB, or SM books.

But that wouldn't be nearly as cool, wouldn't it? It really is because the same reason some Space Marines do not wear helmets. Rule of cool.

Except helmets are way cooler than some bloated rugby player's head stuck on a Marine body. Maybe it's because I grew up with Halo and Metroid, but I'm really not a fan of the whole "characters need to have faces" thing, and the helmet is one of the coolest parts.

I played most of Space Marine with a mod that gave Titus a white MK7 helmet. Looked awesome.

EDIT: They could still devise some sufficiently robotic-looking bionics to look very cool while being visually distinct from power armour parts, without having all these exposed components. Of course, the reason they're exposed at all is "Rule of Cool"/WYSIWYG/visual distinction.

I think it started of in the crusade with them trying to imitate their primarch. Now it's got to the point where they loathe weakness and see anything organic as a weakness and seek to purge that weakness completely.
There was a HH where Horus was talking about how had Ferrus not died and instead been turned, he would've defeated the Emperor already.
Iron was stronger than flesh. It was only when the Primarch went after his desire to punish his brother that he 'lost his way'. I think that the Iron hands are now living that existence which, ironically enough, is the exact opposite of what Ferrus had wanted.

Obviously what they should do is melt down some Necrons and roll in their molten living metal while screaming "THE FLESH IS WEAK THE FLESH IS WEAK".