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It seems that way, I really wish they would have gotten some sort of monsterous creature type unit or even a better new transport since the Taurox sucks. Also a few units are still over costed.

I am thinking of putting a Culexus in a Vendetta, in hopes of ruining some psycher's day. If I am not mistaken the Culexus' Psychic Abomination rule will be measured from the hull of the Vendetta, which is a pretty large area considering how large the Vendetta is (is it perhaps the largest flyer/vehicle in regular 40k in terms of square inches covered?

In my current list I have quite a lot of blasts (Paskisher with two Executioner buddies + thudd guns), so if I can remove some unit's Invisibility by chasing it with a big, fast, psychic-eating plane, I'll hopefully manage blasting it down.

The downside is of course that I can't bless my own units if they get within 12", and the IG really benefit from strength modifiers (similar to the Empire in WHFB), but oh well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Is the guard's poor performance at major US tournaments caused by the mission formats benefitting faster armies or a lack of good players playing them?

Reece started off pretty well with his guard, and didn't he run a pretty unorthodox list with bullgryns? Poland's ETC team's guard-player also did well, right? ToF also ranks blob guard high. It seems to me like armies like Chaos and 'Nids have a dedicated player group that say "Alright, my army is ranked poorly, I'll take the challenge and show them!" - but I don't see the same for the guard.

Just some brain storming here, and I don't have my books with me so I might remember some rules wrong:

The lack of speed is an issue - how about veterans in Valkyries to jump down on objectives? Maybe with an Inquisitor providing servo skulls mid-field near objectives for more secure DSing?

What about getting some SW drop pods and put veterans in them? I'm thinking melta or demo charges.

A heavy weapon team in an Imperial Bunker with the Ammo dump upgrade might work, but I wish we could fit more than 3 models in there. How about Centurions jumping out mid-field through an escape hatch while the guard bombard your enemies from afar?

Any chance of Rough Riders being useful in maelstrom missions?

Just wait until a Catachan Dataslate brings back Marbo and the guard will be #1

The problem is that guard struggles with going out and grabbing objectives. Other armies have units that can go out and actually hold objectives. Guard on the other hand has to keep its force together. Sending a lone vet squad or 2 in chimeras to grab an objective is just sending them on a suicide mission resulting in your opponent picking them off.

Guardsmen just die so easily the moment they are out of cover or not in a transports. Unfortunately our tanks require infantry to wrap around them for cover and even then our infantry are pretty much a meat shield.

Valks arent a good idea as they are pretty expensive now and are only good at anti infantry. But we have the new wyvern artillery and a squad of 2 of those will out perform a valks multiple rocket pods any day. So the valk just wouldnt have any viable targets and would only be taken for droping troops off. The problem is if guard cant kill their opponent then guard will just fall over easily. assault ruins our tanks and infantry with ease and our troops die by the lightest shooting.

 tankboy145 wrote:
The problem is that guard struggles with going out and grabbing objectives. Other armies have units that can go out and actually hold objectives. Guard on the other hand has to keep its force together. Sending a lone vet squad or 2 in chimeras to grab an objective is just sending them on a suicide mission resulting in your opponent picking them off.

Guardsmen just die so easily the moment they are out of cover or not in a transports. Unfortunately our tanks require infantry to wrap around them for cover and even then our infantry are pretty much a meat shield.

Valks arent a good idea as they are pretty expensive now and are only good at anti infantry. But we have the new wyvern artillery and a squad of 2 of those will out perform a valks multiple rocket pods any day. So the valk just wouldnt have any viable targets and would only be taken for droping troops off. The problem is if guard cant kill their opponent then guard will just fall over easily. assault ruins our tanks and infantry with ease and our troops die by the lightest shooting.

Now that you've said it, I can never actually consider a Valkyrie again. Wyverns are just so much better.

Know your shielding units, conscripts in big blobs, armored sentinel squadrons, maybe bullgryns, or just more guardsmen. Objective secured is your friend, only one guardsman needs to make it to the objective.

Yes only one guardsmen needs to make it but when just about every weapon kills them so easily there's a really good chance none will make it. And if you put them in transports then you start to lose those infantry that were shields for your tanks. And if you start advancing those guardsmen on foot with tanks at the rear you ow start to put put your tanks in danger of melta or assault.

 TheSilo wrote:

 tankboy145 wrote:
The problem is that guard struggles with going out and grabbing objectives. Other armies have units that can go out and actually hold objectives. Guard on the other hand has to keep its force together. Sending a lone vet squad or 2 in chimeras to grab an objective is just sending them on a suicide mission resulting in your opponent picking them off.

Guardsmen just die so easily the moment they are out of cover or not in a transports. Unfortunately our tanks require infantry to wrap around them for cover and even then our infantry are pretty much a meat shield.

Valks arent a good idea as they are pretty expensive now and are only good at anti infantry. But we have the new wyvern artillery and a squad of 2 of those will out perform a valks multiple rocket pods any day. So the valk just wouldnt have any viable targets and would only be taken for droping troops off. The problem is if guard cant kill their opponent then guard will just fall over easily. assault ruins our tanks and infantry with ease and our troops die by the lightest shooting.

Now that you've said it, I can never actually consider a Valkyrie again. Wyverns are just so much better.

Know your shielding units, conscripts in big blobs, armored sentinel squadrons, maybe bullgryns, or just more guardsmen. Objective secured is your friend, only one guardsman needs to make it to the objective.

I've actually had pretty good luck returning to Mech Vets. Chimeras moving up to 18" in a turn if they flat out really does give you some mobility, and they're way more durable now that Explodes! results are far less common. The biggest problem with Mech Vets in past editions is that when your Chimera blew up, half of the guys inside would go with it.

Lately I've been running them 2x Plasma 1x Melta and Krak Grenades (for assaulting Wave Serpents - it happens). The 2x Plasma is there for shooting out the top. The lone Melta Gun saves me 5 pts per unit and gives me an extra threat against high AV targets in case it becomes necessary. I ran them this way in 5th and actually liked it a lot despite traditional internet wisdom suggesting that mixed weapons is suboptimal.

FWIW Justin Cook (very experienced 40k player...basically invented Ovesa Star as far as I know) used to run 2x Melta 1x Flamer Vet squads in 5th edition, so there's at least one other player who likes a mixed loadout.

I've actually used this load out but instead ran a heavy flamer and also I didn't have the krak nades. Now with that setup how many vet squads do you usually run?

I've had success as well with mech vets but I've played against serpents my last couple of games and have had some bad luck with trying to kill them. My only solution do far has been a 40 man blob with auto cannons being ordered the ignores cover trait. This has been my only solution so far.

 tankboy145 wrote:
I've actually used this load out but instead ran a heavy flamer and also I didn't have the krak nades. Now with that setup how many vet squads do you usually run?

I've had success as well with mech vets but I've played against serpents my last couple of games and have had some bad luck with trying to kill them. My only solution do far has been a 40 man blob with auto cannons being ordered the ignores cover trait. This has been my only solution so far.

So at 1,500 points, I was running 3 Veteran squads.

With Chimera, Melta Gun, 2x Plasma Guns, and Krak Grenades they come in at 175 points each. The Krak Grenades are pretty situational but they do give you the ability to endanger Wave Serpents and even MCs and walkers in Assault.

It's nice because you often use Veterans differently than double-Special Weapons MEQ squads. Usually 2x Special MEQ squads can hang out in the Rhino and shoot out the top without losing firepower. Veteran squads, with their 3x Specials, sometimes want to disembark to maximize their effectiveness. People aren't usually worried about getting assaulted by Veterans the way they are about getting assaulted by MEQs so if there are other threats, they may ignore the vets especially if the Special Weapons are close and killed off by early shooting. This might leave you with 5 or 6 remaining Guardsmen with Krak Grenades ready to assault a unit. You could also run into vacuum type situations where a vehicle will be stunned by the Veterans' shooting and there aren't really any support units around for your opponent to devote to wiping them. It's a lot more reliable to Krak Grenade a Wave Serpent to death than to shoot it and hope you get past the 3+ Jink and 2+ Serpent Shield.

 tankboy145 wrote:

I've had success as well with mech vets but I've played against serpents my last couple of games and have had some bad luck with trying to kill them. My only solution do far has been a 40 man blob with auto cannons being ordered the ignores cover trait. This has been my only solution so far.

I like to hear it worked. My blob with LC, prescience and ignores cover order did not destroy a single serpent in the course of the game (actually several games now - i need to test this more, but its still the same). Was that bad luck? Honestly, no. Serpents are just too mobile and can easily avoid fire from blob, because blob is not mobile. Serpents can make good use of terrain on the table (if you are not plaing on flat plains) and together with other mobile units (hornets - incredibly good now, or warp spiders - very nasty) outmaneuver your guard units easily. Of course there will be some fire from time to time, but serpents are just too tough to crack, even with "almighty LC ignores cover blob".

A bit of statistics:
- In ideal situation, where all of your LCs can see enemy serpent, which will be not very often, with ignores cover order, which is about 91.5% reliable, your 50-man LC blob can give 5 shots, 2.5 hits, 1.67 hull points damage, which is really nothing for your opponent for so many points (350 is the blob without melta bombs, then you need Yarrick(145) for the order).
-With prescience, which is much less reliable and more costly (Tigurius for maximul reliability, which will still be not good enough if your enemy is warp charge heavy - 165 points), you will have 2.5 hull point damage. So, even with prescience AND ignores cover AND full LOS, you only have a chance to destroy one serpent. It is in no way guaranteed, you have to have luck to make that 3 hull points. And event then, you just used your about 650 points unit for destroying a much, much cheaper unit...

This is why I dont think upgraded blobs are the answer to serpents.

4 squads all together in a blob with 4 autocannons, 4 melta bombs and a character to make them hold the line served me well. Both times I passed the order for ignores cover I had killed a serpent. I will probably give my CCS a vox as well as the blob so I can pass the order more often.

I would rather leave the lascannons out of the blob and keep the anti tank to the vanquishers and vendettas or even the melta vets.

 tankboy145 wrote:
I've actually used this load out but instead ran a heavy flamer and also I didn't have the krak nades. Now with that setup how many vet squads do you usually run?

I've had success as well with mech vets but I've played against serpents my last couple of games and have had some bad luck with trying to kill them. My only solution do far has been a 40 man blob with auto cannons being ordered the ignores cover trait. This has been my only solution so far.

I like the plasma x2 + heavy flamer loadout on mech vets. Against any non-marine army, the heavy flamer is devastating either on the attack or in overwatch. After trying melta bombs on my guard sgts, I'm probably never going back. Being able to easily charge and destroy enemy rhinos with a guardsman sargent was awesome, and probably what I'll prefer over krak grenades, just because melta bombs are more reliable and able to hurt land raiders.

As for blobs, I cannot seem to make blobs work. They're clunky and ineffective whenever I use them, it's too hard to get enough lasguns in range or keep LOS for all the heavy weapons, and regardless of how well I equip my sgts the whole blob evaporates in close combat. One guy gets stuck in difficult terrain, and I hate the feeling of wasting so many lasguns by ordering and targeting for my autocannons. I keep the heavy weapons in CCS, PCS, and camo-vet squads. I still love conscripts with a commissar (though probably going with a priest now on) they're great for tarpitting and objective securing and bullet eating. But blob guardsmen just seems such a waste. I'm planning to run hunter-killer mech vets with plasma and 10-man assault squads of guardsmen with meltas or flamers and a primaris psyker with biomancy. Rather than paying for a power weapon on a sgt, I can pay 50 points and get a ML1 psyker with smite and a buff who comes with a free power weapon. Now my guardsmen are surplus wounds for a damage dealing psyker, the sgt can take a challenge in assault, and the psyker can do some damage (hopefully with warp speed or iron arm).

 TheSilo wrote:

 tankboy145 wrote:
I've actually used this load out but instead ran a heavy flamer and also I didn't have the krak nades. Now with that setup how many vet squads do you usually run?

I've had success as well with mech vets but I've played against serpents my last couple of games and have had some bad luck with trying to kill them. My only solution do far has been a 40 man blob with auto cannons being ordered the ignores cover trait. This has been my only solution so far.

I like the plasma x2 + heavy flamer loadout on mech vets. Against any non-marine army, the heavy flamer is devastating either on the attack or in overwatch. After trying melta bombs on my guard sgts, I'm probably never going back. Being able to easily charge and destroy enemy rhinos with a guardsman sargent was awesome, and probably what I'll prefer over krak grenades, just because melta bombs are more reliable and able to hurt land raiders.

As for blobs, I cannot seem to make blobs work. They're clunky and ineffective whenever I use them, it's too hard to get enough lasguns in range or keep LOS for all the heavy weapons, and regardless of how well I equip my sgts the whole blob evaporates in close combat. One guy gets stuck in difficult terrain, and I hate the feeling of wasting so many lasguns by ordering and targeting for my autocannons. I keep the heavy weapons in CCS, PCS, and camo-vet squads. I still love conscripts with a commissar (though probably going with a priest now on) they're great for tarpitting and objective securing and bullet eating. But blob guardsmen just seems such a waste. I'm planning to run hunter-killer mech vets with plasma and 10-man assault squads of guardsmen with meltas or flamers and a primaris psyker with biomancy. Rather than paying for a power weapon on a sgt, I can pay 50 points and get a ML1 psyker with smite and a buff who comes with a free power weapon. Now my guardsmen are surplus wounds for a damage dealing psyker, the sgt can take a challenge in assault, and the psyker can do some damage (hopefully with warp speed or iron arm).

Y'know, I've considered a blob to be as sort of a bodyguard for a decked out Commissar, Primaris, and a priest. By and large the guardsmen will die horribly and quickly, but the sergeants might provide a pretty awesome bit of power weapon/axe goodness. But I'm with you, I can almost NEVER get blobs to do anything that everyone else has zero issue doing.

 tankboy145 wrote:
4 squads all together in a blob with 4 autocannons, 4 melta bombs and a character to make them hold the line served me well. Both times I passed the order for ignores cover I had killed a serpent.

In that case you are very, VERY lucky, because the chance to kill a serpent in one turn with what you suggested is not very high (statistics say you will deal an average of 1.33 hull point damage per turn)

Is there a Battle Brother, Independent Character for AM/IG that provides Relentless? I know Space Wolf Guy used to have it dunno if there are any others?

 RegulusBlack wrote:
Is there a Battle Brother, Independent Character for AM/IG that provides Relentless? I know Space Wolf Guy used to have it dunno if there are any others?

Not that I'm aware of.

And also still on topic of the blobs. If anything give the sergeants melta bombs and then maybe give each squad either a flamer and a melta bomb. Add a commissar to make them hold their ground. Then run them at an objective. Run an addition conscript blob with a priest a f run them at another objective. With so many bodies your opponent will struggle to deal with them and with do many bodies you will be able to block the enemy from getting close enough before the game ends. Got to remember we are talking about guardsmen here and the fluff says they die I'm droves for the emperor...so try playing them that way. I have and it's actually worked and your opponent doesn't expect it when guardsmen come at them in numbers.

Have russes and a vet squad in chimera follow each of the blobs to lend support. The blob will try to keep the russ wrapped and the vet squad is the rear guard. If the guardsmen get overwhelmed then the vets can come forward and help hold the objective between the chimera and the guys inside. After that maybe try to get a vendetta for airsupport. Or some suicide melta scion squads to take our heavy armor.

I haven't tried this tactic but I assume it could work.

Severin Loth I think can pick spells from Biomancy.

 Leth wrote:
Severin Loth I think can pick spells from Biomancy.

I'm not familiar with that character, what army is he from?

He is from the red scorpions chapter, think his rules are on the FW website

 Leth wrote:
He is from the red scorpions chapter, think his rules are on the FW website

Ah gotcha, I'm not familiar with FW which explains why I never heard of him. What a powerful beat stick that guy could be if he could pick his biomancy powers lol.

 tankboy145 wrote:

 Leth wrote:
He is from the red scorpions chapter, think his rules are on the FW website

Ah gotcha, I'm not familiar with FW which explains why I never heard of him. What a powerful beat stick that guy could be if he could pick his biomancy powers lol.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/fwDownloads

The links for Loth (and all the Badab War characters and chapters) are here. Totally free and easy. Loth's rules are a little out of date (it's not entirely clear how him armor should work; just a warp charge 1 power, I guess?) but he does get to pick all his own powers, although he can't mix and match from different disciplines.

Loth's armor works exactly as it says it does. You spend a warp charge and get a 2+ invuln.

Spending charges without manifesting a psychic power isn't unheard of -- the Eldar Ghost Helm does much the same thing. In the absence of any errata to the contrary, it works the same as it always did.

Prior to the space wolves getting a new codex I used to run a rune priest in a blob of guardsmen. I haven't tried it yet with their new codex but I feel a mastery lvl 2 rune priest fishing through divination could really buff a blob. I'm pretty sure if any psykers target the blob he denies them on a 4+ because he's a psyker and his runic weapon has some effect on that. Although if your blob is moving up a wolf priest giving preferred enemy to a specific unit type and a 6+fnp.

Unless you are running a bunch of psykers I am in the take the guaranteed thing over a chance at the other one.

Also I would take Ulrik any day of the week over a regular wolf priest.

 Leth wrote:
Unless you are running a bunch of psykers I am in the take the guaranteed thing over a chance at the other one.

Also I would take Ulrik any day of the week over a regular wolf priest.

Oh yea ulrik will always be a better choice over a normal wolf priest. But there's also rune priest, you go on divination you then get the primaris and 2 other powers. The primaris alone being prescience makes a blob hit more shooting and in close combat. All other powers in the divination tree are pretty good as well.

ulrik only benefits SW i thought, Wolf Priest gives it to whoever he is attached to.

Right, but as long as there is one SW in the unit, or within range they get preferred enemy. and only one model in the unit has to have it to benefit the entire squad.

Exactly so ulrik being a sw character gets preferred enemy himself. And only 1 model in the unit needs to have it to confer to the unit. So the blob would then get it.

I've read in a couple of army lists which contains veterans with 4 melta guns. These may be from earlier versions of IG codex, but in the current one I couldn't find a way to do it. You can only give 3 special weapons to veterans, special weapon teams. The only exceptions I find are the Command squads. So how are those possible?

Zsolt wrote:
I've read in a couple of army lists which contains veterans with 4 melta guns. These may be from earlier versions of IG codex, but in the current one I couldn't find a way to do it. You can only give 3 special weapons to veterans, special weapon teams. The only exceptions I find are the Command squads. So how are those possible?

The demolitions doctrines give them melta bombs, they might be confused or not marking it clearly. But yes, you only get 3 melta guns.

Stumbled across this thread and there is so much to like, thanks all. After a while trying to find effective small model count armies and being disappointed, I am giving up and building a blob guard army. The two issues I think many have identified are:

-Prevalence of ignores cover (Wave Serpents worst of all)
-Mobility (I play under BAO/LVO format so have modified maelstrom objectives)

On the first, I think 4++ is where it's at for guard. Initially my thought was Azrael, but since I want other Divination spells anyway, I will probably rely on forewarning. For the home blob, I am thinking Skyshield over Aegis Line. On the second, initially my forward objective grabber was going to be a PCS w/ 4 flamers in a vendetta, but now I am thinking for the price of a vendetta and 4 flamers I can take Cypher and just infiltrate a whole blob (and give it shrouding).

The 1850 list I am settling around:

AM:
Yarrick
3 x Pskers, ML2
Cypher

Platoon 1:
PCS, Vox Caster, Melta Bombs
50 Infantry, 5x Power Axe, 5x Melta Bombs, 5x Las Cannons, Vox

Platoon 2:
PCS, Melta Bombs
40 Infantry, 4x Melta Bombs, 4x Las Cannons, Vox

3x Thudd Guns

Skyshield

=][= Allies:
Coteaz
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, ML1, Rad Grenades, 2x Servo Skulls

2x Accolytes, 1x Psyker
2x Accolytes, 1x Psyker
2x Accolytes, 1x Psyker

50 man blob infiltrates w/ Cypher, OXI, and whichever Psyker gets Forewarning. 40 man blob w/ Coteaz sits on the skyshield along w/ Thudd guns. Toughts? I'll let you know how it plays after I paint about 85 more guardsmen . . .