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Am I missing something? My Guard seems to be woefully not up to task against all the other armies. Played my friends Necrons, the transports are INSANELY better than any of the Guard transports, AND their guns are insanely better on the transport and all the guys inside. At this point I'm going to start fielding the bare minimum infantry because of how worthless the lasguns are. I hate the argument "yeah but you roll 40 dice" well let me break it down, 40 dice, usually hitting on 5+ then wounding on a 5+ then you get your full armor save. I'm lucky to cause 6 wounds on those 40 dice. Something needs to change because the only time I feel at all safe with my troops is if I'm fighting gretchins. "But look at how little they cost" yeah, and look at how little they can do, say you can field 10 units in a troop, while I get 20, my 20 aren't even the equal of 5 of your 10, they might as well not even be there. Not even to mention that they would get absolutely obliterated in CC, so what's the point to them? Between the gretchins and gaunts they have to be the absolute worst troop choice in the game, even the veterans who only get a BS 4 aren't worth it since they're still firing the lasguns. I am so frustrated, 40 dice on an overwatch, 1 wound. AND THEN, it doesn't even feel like I even have more troops on the table than my opponent, so please somebody.... what's the point of even taking them if to be nothing but a meat shield because it is too frustrating to me to keep losing so many guys.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I found a good analogy for Guard troops. It's like Mobile Suit Gundam, they send out the Gundam. Oh man, I should send out 20 Zaku 1's and 2's, maybe 10 Doms, 3 Gelgoogs. Yeah that should be good against that one Gundam.... WRONG!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/14 03:46:01
chmcclellan wrote: Stumbled across this thread and there is so much to like, thanks all. After a while trying to find effective small model count armies and being disappointed, I am giving up and building a blob guard army. The two issues I think many have identified are:
-Prevalence of ignores cover (Wave Serpents worst of all)
-Mobility (I play under BAO/LVO format so have modified maelstrom objectives)
On the first, I think 4++ is where it's at for guard. Initially my thought was Azrael, but since I want other Divination spells anyway, I will probably rely on forewarning. For the home blob, I am thinking Skyshield over Aegis Line. On the second, initially my forward objective grabber was going to be a PCS w/ 4 flamers in a vendetta, but now I am thinking for the price of a vendetta and 4 flamers I can take Cypher and just infiltrate a whole blob (and give it shrouding).
The 1850 list I am settling around:
AM:
Yarrick
3 x Pskers, ML2
Cypher
Platoon 1:
PCS, Vox Caster, Melta Bombs
50 Infantry, 5x Power Axe, 5x Melta Bombs, 5x Las Cannons, Vox
50 man blob infiltrates w/ Cypher, OXI, and whichever Psyker gets Forewarning. 40 man blob w/ Coteaz sits on the skyshield along w/ Thudd guns. Toughts? I'll let you know how it plays after I paint about 85 more guardsmen . . .
Azrael isn't a bad choice for the blob. He guarantees you get a 4++ but a psychic power that you cast on your own blob can be denied. And that's if you even roll that power. Because if you go up against any psychic heavy army they will make sure they deny your power every time so your blob is that much weaker. I'm not saying the psychic power route is bad because I use a sw rune priest and try to get that power but my main goal is prescience.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gamerely wrote: Am I missing something? My Guard seems to be woefully not up to task against all the other armies. Played my friends Necrons, the transports are INSANELY better than any of the Guard transports, AND their guns are insanely better on the transport and all the guys inside. At this point I'm going to start fielding the bare minimum infantry because of how worthless the lasguns are. I hate the argument "yeah but you roll 40 dice" well let me break it down, 40 dice, usually hitting on 5+ then wounding on a 5+ then you get your full armor save. I'm lucky to cause 6 wounds on those 40 dice. Something needs to change because the only time I feel at all safe with my troops is if I'm fighting gretchins. "But look at how little they cost" yeah, and look at how little they can do, say you can field 10 units in a troop, while I get 20, my 20 aren't even the equal of 5 of your 10, they might as well not even be there. Not even to mention that they would get absolutely obliterated in CC, so what's the point to them? Between the gretchins and gaunts they have to be the absolute worst troop choice in the game, even the veterans who only get a BS 4 aren't worth it since they're still firing the lasguns. I am so frustrated, 40 dice on an overwatch, 1 wound. AND THEN, it doesn't even feel like I even have more troops on the table than my opponent, so please somebody.... what's the point of even taking them if to be nothing but a meat shield because it is too frustrating to me to keep losing so many guys.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I found a good analogy for Guard troops. It's like Mobile Suit Gundam, they send out the Gundam. Oh man, I should send out 20 Zaku 1's and 2's, maybe 10 Doms, 3 Gelgoogs. Yeah that should be good against that one Gundam.... WRONG!
Yea I've come across this issue as well with guard. The poor troops have made me use them almost bare bones. Some orders make blobs with heavy weapons teams pretty good like being it down and fire on my target but otherwise lasguns are pretty poor. Also meat shield guardsmen are good for ur vehicles. Because your opponent has to kill them or you will get a cover save or ur opponent won't be in melta or assault range. And if your opponent is shooting at cheap infantry then your big guns are free to fire away. But the moment those infantry aren't being attacked they can sit and hold objectives.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/14 06:46:03
Gamerely wrote: I'm lucky to cause 6 wounds on those 40 dice.
But what you need to remember is that those 40 dice didn't cost very many points. 40 dice = 20 guardsmen in rapid fire range or with FRFSRF = ~100 points. Of course you're going to do less damage than 100-200 point units, but when you consider damage per point those guardsmen are actually pretty effective. And then you also have to look at what else they do: they camp on objectives with hundreds of bodies (and a 2+ cover save in many situations), they take up space to block your opponent from getting to your big guns, etc. Even if your meatshields never inflict any casualties they can still do their job.
even the veterans who only get a BS 4 aren't worth it since they're still firing the lasguns.
Sounds like you don't really understand how veterans work. A veteran squad is 3x melta or plasma with some extra meatshields to catch bullets and keep the real guns alive. Any damage the lasguns happen to do is just a nice bonus.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
I just happen to glue together a commissar, and thinking about what ccw and pistol should I add if I go for WYSIWYG.
Since the regular commissar isn't really a cc ace, I think I'll just go for Bolt pistol and chainsword. Although if it'll be shooty anyway, wouldn't it better to add a boltgun? Or am I missing something, and I should build a CC commissar with pistol and power axe/sword?
Is plasma pistol worth it's points? If I have a commissar model with power axe and a flamer (which is not a valid option for commissar now), the flamer counts as whatever I want, or what are the rules for that?
I read through this post and have really enjoyed the all the input. Something that seemed to be a recurring theme was that with mechanized lists is that its hard to hold/score objectives later game. With talk of allies I was thinking of bringing two 4 man tactical squads or one 10 man squad all in drop pods in a 1500 point list. Is this a good idea or am I just wasting points?
You cant do 4man tactical s (atleast i dont think you can)
Personally pref the 5man combi+special combo drop pods as it gives you an opportunity to put some pain down on a specific target like a tank or 2+ save unit like oblits
In the context of a IG list. they can be good if you are actually following them up. like with hell hounds or mech vets or whatever.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/17 00:10:51
Desubot wrote: You cant do 4man tactical s (atleast i dont think you can)
Personally pref the 5man combi+special combo drop pods as it gives you an opportunity to put some pain down on a specific target like a tank or 2+ save unit like oblits
In the context of a IG list. they can be good if you are actually following them up. like with hell hounds or mech vets or whatever.
It is a minimum of 5 man, I was thinking 4 man plus sergeant. I'm gonna try to get my hands on a drop pod.
It depends on what is being brought by the ally. If it's just to get a tactical squad on the other side of the board it isn't a bad idea. But from experience one drop pod of 10 dudes will get shot to up and die without doing any significant impact.
tankboy145 wrote: It depends on what is being brought by the ally. If it's just to get a tactical squad on the other side of the board it isn't a bad idea. But from experience one drop pod of 10 dudes will get shot to up and die without doing any significant impact.
For the most part I don't intend too much to use these marines in getting kill points unless there is a unique opportunity where that can do some real damage real quick. The intent I had for them was to hold points and harass while My tanks advanced. This small detachment of space marines would be accompanied by Pask and a squad-mate, two wyvrens, two veteran squads in chimeras, and one to two more leman russ' depending on how I can swing the points. This a a heavy mechanized list and I think could benefit from having either two five man drop pods or one ten man holding points and harassing while the guard did the real work of dealing with the enemy.
So I'm interested in making a AM mech army of pretty much only vehicles (baring the mandatory 2 vet squads in chimeras). I'm currently looking at my fast attack options namely armored sentinels and valk/vendetta. I can't decide which one I should take.
Valkyrie can carry my melta vets for me instead of the chimera but itself doesn't have that impressive fire power. The Vendetta has good shooting and is great anti-air but is a bit spendy and has to start in reserves so doesn't start shooting until turn 2 at best.
And armored sentinels so viable. Take a squadron of 3 with lascannons and you get 6HP and 3 lascannons shots for 150 pts which is comparable to the Vendetta though its not twinlinked. They do get to shoot on turn 1 though. Or should I pick a different gun rough such as the autocannon?
CrownAxe wrote: So I'm interested in making a AM mech army of pretty much only vehicles (baring the mandatory 2 vet squads in chimeras). I'm currently looking at my fast attack options namely armored sentinels and valk/vendetta. I can't decide which one I should take.
Valkyrie can carry my melta vets for me instead of the chimera but itself doesn't have that impressive fire power. The Vendetta has good shooting and is great anti-air but is a bit spendy and has to start in reserves so doesn't start shooting until turn 2 at best.
And armored sentinels so viable. Take a squadron of 3 with lascannons and you get 6HP and 3 lascannons shots for 150 pts which is comparable to the Vendetta though its not twinlinked. They do get to shoot on turn 1 though. Or should I pick a different gun rough such as the autocannon?
I really like the idea of armored sentinel spam, they're so cheap now. I prefer multilasers or autocannons for multi role and because of BS3, but for some reason missile launchers cost the same as autocannons and lascannons are only 5 points more. A squad of three will be cheaper than plasma vets in a chimera, with much better range and durability, with the range they should be able to make up for their lower BS over the game. I don't think there are any bad choices when it comes to armored sentinels.
"Bringer of death, speak your name, For you are my life, and the foe's death." - Litany of the Lasgun
CrownAxe wrote: So I'm interested in making a AM mech army of pretty much only vehicles (baring the mandatory 2 vet squads in chimeras). I'm currently looking at my fast attack options namely armored sentinels and valk/vendetta. I can't decide which one I should take.
Valkyrie can carry my melta vets for me instead of the chimera but itself doesn't have that impressive fire power. The Vendetta has good shooting and is great anti-air but is a bit spendy and has to start in reserves so doesn't start shooting until turn 2 at best.
And armored sentinels so viable. Take a squadron of 3 with lascannons and you get 6HP and 3 lascannons shots for 150 pts which is comparable to the Vendetta though its not twinlinked. They do get to shoot on turn 1 though. Or should I pick a different gun rough such as the autocannon?
I really like the idea of armored sentinel spam, they're so cheap now. I prefer multilasers or autocannons for multi role and because of BS3, but for some reason missile launchers cost the same as autocannons and lascannons are only 5 points more. A squad of three will be cheaper than plasma vets in a chimera, with much better range and durability, with the range they should be able to make up for their lower BS over the game. I don't think there are any bad choices when it comes to armored sentinels.
+1...if I owned any Armored Sentinels I'd definitely be using them. Sit behind a Chimera for that juicy cover save then plug away with Lascannons or Autocannons.
Sounds like you don't really understand how veterans work. A veteran squad is 3x melta or plasma with some extra meatshields to catch bullets and keep the real guns alive. Any damage the lasguns happen to do is just a nice bonus.
Veterans are supposed to be bad asses. Not meat shields for special weapons. Some people want to play a semi elite guard force without fielding a hoard of guardsmen. If those guys are only meat shields then why are they veterans?
105 points for 3 veterans with plasma and the unit. These guys are going to die very quickly without a chimera or a taurox. Even if you don't use a transport your going to need carapace or camo and thats more points. So if you don't want them to die before they can even get a shot off you need to pay at least 120 points for 7 meat shields and 3 useful guys.
I might as well get 2 heavy sentinels with plasma cannons for 100 points. They are more survivable, cost less and have more potential to wipe an enemy unit out.
NuggzTheNinja wrote: +1...if I owned any Armored Sentinels I'd definitely be using them. Sit behind a Chimera for that juicy cover save then plug away with Lascannons or Autocannons.
If you put them behind a chimera, they will pretty hard to shoot out from there.
Veterans are supposed to be bad asses. Not meat shields for special weapons. Some people want to play a semi elite guard force without fielding a hoard of guardsmen. If those guys are only meat shields then why are they veterans?
IMO Veterans are meat shields which are more shooty. Storm troopers are a bit more elite, but still a bit thin. If you want real elite guard force, you need to go to the Space marines. Otherwise you'll just get meat in paperboxes.
I might as well get 2 heavy sentinels with plasma cannons for 100 points. They are more survivable, cost less and have more potential to wipe an enemy unit out.
Last match, out of 10 plasma cannon shots I managed to land like 2 or 3 because of scatter. Those wiped out a DSd terminator squad, but still. So pieplates are a bit too random. Ofc regular plasma gun is a bit too random in killing your guys
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/17 21:44:26
NuggzTheNinja wrote: +1...if I owned any Armored Sentinels I'd definitely be using them. Sit behind a Chimera for that juicy cover save then plug away with Lascannons or Autocannons.
If you put them behind a chimera, they will pretty hard to shoot out from there.
Veterans are supposed to be bad asses. Not meat shields for special weapons. Some people want to play a semi elite guard force without fielding a hoard of guardsmen. If those guys are only meat shields then why are they veterans?
IMO Veterans are meat shields which are more shooty. Storm troopers are a bit more elite, but still a bit thin. If you want real elite guard force, you need to go to the Space marines. Otherwise you'll just get meat in paperboxes.
I might as well get 2 heavy sentinels with plasma cannons for 100 points. They are more survivable, cost less and have more potential to wipe an enemy unit out.
Last match, out of 10 plasma cannon shots I managed to land like 2 or 3 because of scatter. Those wiped out a DSd terminator squad, but still. So pieplates are a bit too random. Ofc regular plasma gun is a bit too random in killing your guys
Storm troopers are worth even less than veterans. They inherently cost more, their range is crap, they have less special weapon slots, and cannot take camo.
Their range is too bad to warrant them as a foot model, so you need to either deepstrike them, or put them in a transport. Transports cost points, and deep striking is very dangerous as you need to deep strike them close enough so that they are in range, yet also not too close so if they do scatter they wont mishap. Assuming all of this works, chances are they deep strike outside rapid fire range, so you have 10 shots. out of those ten shots 6-7 of them will hit, then out of those 6-7 shots only 2-3 of them will wound. then the opposing player will most likely have a cover save. Their ap value does not make up for their lesser amount of special weapons, lower range, no camo, and more points.
one game i got lucky and deep struck a 10 man squad within 9 inches of an enemy devastator squad, and they were in range for orders. They made 2 wounds out of 30 shots and he only lost 2 devastators.
The thing that makes veterans survivable is that they can make 4+ cover into a 2+ by buying camo going to ground and then getting the get back in the fight order, but thats still 120 points for plasma veterans with camo.
oh yeah and gaunt's ghosts and the Elysians are most certainly Elite regiments. The sad thing is that i cannot make a light infantry force as it doesn't work at all because the entire codex is focused on vehicles instead of the actual guardsmen.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/17 22:09:26
NuggzTheNinja wrote: +1...if I owned any Armored Sentinels I'd definitely be using them. Sit behind a Chimera for that juicy cover save then plug away with Lascannons or Autocannons.
If you put them behind a chimera, they will pretty hard to shoot out from there.
Veterans are supposed to be bad asses. Not meat shields for special weapons. Some people want to play a semi elite guard force without fielding a hoard of guardsmen. If those guys are only meat shields then why are they veterans?
IMO Veterans are meat shields which are more shooty. Storm troopers are a bit more elite, but still a bit thin. If you want real elite guard force, you need to go to the Space marines. Otherwise you'll just get meat in paperboxes.
I might as well get 2 heavy sentinels with plasma cannons for 100 points. They are more survivable, cost less and have more potential to wipe an enemy unit out.
Last match, out of 10 plasma cannon shots I managed to land like 2 or 3 because of scatter. Those wiped out a DSd terminator squad, but still. So pieplates are a bit too random. Ofc regular plasma gun is a bit too random in killing your guys
Storm troopers are worth even less than veterans. They inherently cost more, their range is crap, they have less special weapon slots, and cannot take camo.
Their range is too bad to warrant them as a foot model, so you need to either deepstrike them, or put them in a transport. Transports cost points, and deep striking is very dangerous as you need to deep strike them close enough so that they are in range, yet also not too close so if they do scatter they wont mishap. Assuming all of this works, chances are they deep strike outside rapid fire range, so you have 10 shots. out of those ten shots 6-7 of them will hit, then out of those 6-7 shots only 2-3 of them will wound. then the opposing player will most likely have a cover save. Their ap value does not make up for their lesser amount of special weapons, lower range, no camo, and more points.
one game i got lucky and deep struck a 10 man squad within 9 inches of an enemy devastator squad, and they were in range for orders. They made 2 wounds out of 30 shots and he only lost 2 devastators.
The thing that makes veterans survivable is that they can make 4+ cover into a 2+ by buying camo going to ground and then getting the get back in the fight order, but thats still 120 points for plasma veterans with camo.
oh yeah and gaunt's ghosts and the Elysians are most certainly Elite regiments. The sad thing is that i cannot make a light infantry force as it doesn't work at all because the entire codex is focused on vehicles instead of the actual guardsmen.
I think you're too early to dismiss Storm Troopers because you had a bad experience with deepstriking.
My first experience with DS'ing way back in early 5th was with Terminators and an Assault Squad. The former mishapped and died, the latter got delayed 3 turns in a row and then landed slapbang next to a Deathwing Terminator Squad, who promptly ate them. I still use deepstriking stuff though I was put off for a while, and there's even more reason to now given that terrain like ruins doesn't cause mishaps and its generally a lot harder to screw it up now.
Scions are not going to wipe squads off the board, they're a scalpel that with their special weapon fire, which starts easier and closer to the enemy than with Vets due to their deepstrike, can deal with and add specialist firepower against certain units like vehicles and such. In addition, they're one of the very few ways we have of reliably being able to get some stuff in the backboard, and for relatively cheap - the cost of a Valkyrie is almost as much as a 10 man squad of Scions with decent weapons. Move Through Cover is always forgotten, but it always helps with getting to those objectives that you bought them to grab. Basically, you can either run them as suicide special weapon squads, objective takers, or try to do both.
You don't buy Scions for the Hotshots, and a squad of 10 won't singlehandedly clear an objective (well, unless you've got flamers or you're facing MSU) so they rely heavily on your firepower reserves to help with that, which can be a pain in the ass but generally I find I can do that anyway because I always keep a good distance from my opponent. (honestly why I am not a fan of the Pask Punisher that everyone worships)
As for running light infantry, well, I do that myself. I don't use Foot Vets, what I do is I generally take a blob of 30-50 men and put Cypher in there, who I have modelled as an Inquisitor in power armour. 99.9% of the people I meet run with the idea that Cypher does confer infiltrate, as do a fair amount of tournaments, though even if you're not going to do that he still gives outflank. Add in an actual Inquisitor with liber heresius and you're golden after you scout following infiltrate, prescience, FRFSRF.
I reckon Foot Vets can be done, though not intensively. I'd run a few squads with camo-cloaks and triple melta that shore up the lines for my armoured element (my fluff is that generally my army consists of both) But yes, running exclusively light infantry will be very hard unless you go for something fluffy like adding in a Freeblade Knight or two, or maybe some allied Space Marines.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/18 00:50:54
so what you are saying is that #1 storm troopers are not there to kill marines, they are there for their special weapons. #2 they won't kill infantry units #3 they rely on additional support #4 they are there to take objectives.
a better usage of the so called scalpel ability that the MT have is instead with veterans again. 3x snipers with camo cloaks can reach out and touch a lot of what is on the board, which fulfills the same role at picking off important units down field. Cover becomes irrelevant due to orders, which they will much more likely be in range of.
if i am not buying storm troopers for their hotshots, then why am i buying storm troopers? they have less options in wargear (no camo), have less special weapons, and are priced more, presumably because of their hotshots.
if vehicles are a problem then there are 2 other more reliable ways of dealing with them also. Vendettas, and melta vets in Valkyries. 2 multi rocket pods and the multi laser will take care of infantry, and the veterans can take care of vehicles. If they need to get out of combat after they have taken the objective they can then mount up inside the valkyrie which is much faster then moves through cover.
With this setup you don't have to worry about randomness, and each unit is much better equipped at its intended goal. Not to mention most players i have faced will immediately focus fire on scions for fear of ap3.
there is no point in taking light infantry if you use tanks, tracked vehicles, armored units and large blob squads. that is not light infantry, that is a mass of guardsmen with outflank.
Light infantry operate without heavy support and instead rely on aircraft and smaller vehicles. To say you need armored support to make light infantry work, is to forfeit the idea of there being light infantry.
Sledgehammer wrote: so what you are saying is that #1 storm troopers are not there to kill marines, they are there for their special weapons. #2 they won't kill infantry units #3 they rely on additional support #4 they are there to take objectives.
a better usage of the so called scalpel ability that the MT have is instead with veterans again. 3x snipers with camo cloaks can reach out and touch a lot of what is on the board, which fulfills the same role at picking off important units down field. Cover becomes irrelevant due to orders, which they will much more likely be in range of.
if i am not buying storm troopers for their hotshots, then why am i buying storm troopers? they have less options in wargear (no camo), have less special weapons, and are priced more, presumably because of their hotshots.
if vehicles are a problem then there are 2 other more reliable ways of dealing with them also. Vendettas, and melta vets in Valkyries. 2 multi rocket pods and the multi laser will take care of infantry, and the veterans can take care of vehicles. If they need to get out of combat after they have taken the objective they can then mount up inside the valkyrie which is much faster then moves through cover.
With this setup you don't have to worry about randomness, and each unit is much better equipped at its intended goal. Not to mention most players i have faced will immediately focus fire on scions for fear of ap3.
there is no point in taking light infantry if you use tanks, tracked vehicles, armored units and large blob squads. that is not light infantry, that is a mass of guardsmen with outflank.
Light infantry operate without heavy support and instead rely on aircraft and smaller vehicles. To say you need armored support to make light infantry work, is to forfeit the idea of there being light infantry.
If their range were 24", scions would be a semi-viable choice. They need to be able to clear the immediate area when they deep strike because they will get wrecked in assault, but between the deep strike scatter and their short range, it's very unlikely that you're going to be able to order and/or rapid fire against a good target.
Unlike a vendetta that can alpha strike on the turn it comes in, naked scions struggle to get into the action by turn 4, and they've already missed half the game. If they could still infiltrate...or still had a pistol and ccw...then maybe, but as is they're not even very good at clearing small units off objectives. I only see their use in deep striking onto uncontested objectives (at 70 points, it's not a high price tag in larger battles).
As mentioned, they really seem like they're designed for armored or aerial assault: zoom up, disembark, and unload a platoon's worth of FRF hotshot fire into the enemy. I imagine the MT formations are very good for this. But in the AM codex, Scions aren't even particularly good at their appointed task, killing 3+ or 4+ infantry. They cost the same points as a Space Marine, but even in their rapid fire range on open ground they are only as good at killing marines as marines are at killing them, and that doesn't factor in how marines will slaughter them in CC, or the increased range of a bolter, or if they're in cover.
"Bringer of death, speak your name, For you are my life, and the foe's death." - Litany of the Lasgun
The problem is your looking at guard and expecting bad ass vets(normal human beings with a little better aim) to so what space marines do.
Sometimes you have to play the game by fluff. Guardsmen will die in short order to the smallest firepower. It's human beings against super genetically enhanced human beings with better armor and better weapons.
Most of the time in fluff guard only wins through attrition. And taking 90% casualties to huge forces.
The problem is the infantry are geared to relying on orders as orders really enhance guardsmens abilities. But mech units don't benefit from this from being in transports. So you lose out on the biggest bonus infantry have. Then if you run platoons to benefit from orders then your losing out on mobility of objective secured troops going out and capturing objectives. It's a lose lose situation for the Astra militarum.
Every army has it's flaws(minus eldar as they are broke and are a mistake) but it's up to you to try and make the most effective army you can to deal with your flaws. It's strategy. I don't want a broken army that can hammer my opponent and grab all the objectives. If I wanted to win automatically and easily I would play eldar. But I love my cheap tanks and infantry I can spam and I like a challenge.
tankboy145 wrote: The problem is your looking at guard and expecting bad ass vets(normal human beings with a little better aim) to so what space marines do.
Sometimes you have to play the game by fluff. Guardsmen will die in short order to the smallest firepower. It's human beings against super genetically enhanced human beings with better armor and better weapons.
Most of the time in fluff guard only wins through attrition. And taking 90% casualties to huge forces.
The problem is the infantry are geared to relying on orders as orders really enhance guardsmens abilities. But mech units don't benefit from this from being in transports. So you lose out on the biggest bonus infantry have. Then if you run platoons to benefit from orders then your losing out on mobility of objective secured troops going out and capturing objectives. It's a lose lose situation for the Astra militarum.
Every army has it's flaws(minus eldar as they are broke and are a mistake) but it's up to you to try and make the most effective army you can to deal with your flaws. It's strategy. I don't want a broken army that can hammer my opponent and grab all the objectives. If I wanted to win automatically and easily I would play eldar. But I love my cheap tanks and infantry I can spam and I like a challenge.
guys like this
Spoiler:
Arkan is a temperate world covered in forests. The planet is 25% larger than Terra and revolves around a bright blue star, named Arka. Arkan means of Arka.
The world’s forests consist of taiga, redwood, deciduous, jungle, and pine. No matter where you are on Arkan you are either surrounded by forest, above it, or on the oceans. There are no deserts, or plains, there is only forest. The lack of any kind of environment that does not include forests is due to the rapid rate at which vegetation grows. Once a tree is cut down it only takes a year for a new tree to grow and become just as big as the one that was cut down. No one knows why vegetation grows so quickly, but the ecclesiarchy officially states that it is a gift of the emperor even if reports dating back before contact with the great crusade mention the growth phenomena.
Forests and plants grow so quickly that any indent on the landscape is restored in a short time. This makes permeant settlements, and clearing land for agriculture hard. Force fields seem to have an effect on the rapid growth of vegetation so all major settlements employ their use. Agriculture gets around this problem by consolidating land, labor, and capital into plantations that have force fields on their outskirts that prevent the forest from encroaching on agricultural land, whilst still allowing for the rapid growth of produce. The most common way for agriculture to be done is a nomadic system. Forest fires rage all the time on Arkan and some have found a way to employ them to their benefit. Land that has been cleared by forest fires in quickly turned into temporary agricultural ground where it is utilized until the forest begins to encroach again.
Forest fires are very dangerous and constantly threaten the people of Arken. Walls are erected, and trees are constantly cleared from around settlements to combat the threat. An entire section of the planetary defense force is dedicated to fighting these fires. The men and women that make up this task force are the initiates of the local defense force.
Under the constant threat of fire, and hindered by thousands of miles of forest, traditional vehicles are essentially impossible to utilize for transportation between settlements. In their stead aircraft perform the same role. Without an abundance of aircraft transportation of goods and personnel would be dangerous and hindersome. Due to their importance many people and families have aircraft. These can be small gyro copters, balloons, prop planes, helicopters, jets, VTOL capable aircraft, and amphibious landers. Storage of the majority of the aircraft is in underground hangers that can house an entire settlements supply of aircraft. Airports are the center of commerce and trade on Arkan. Every town has an airport for without one it could not send or receive anything. The abundance of aircraft on Arkan and its imperative use by its citizens makes them a very good pilots and airmen.
Arkan society is pseudo class based. Mutants generally work in the nomadic agricultural and logging trains where they. Humans of low class either work in the plantations as sweat shop “employees” or as valued workers, or clear the land around settlements for protection from fire. Low class citizens also work as mechanics on the vast array of aircraft. Arkan’s middle class is comprised of cargo pilots, low ranking members of Arkans planetary government, accountants, lawyers, teachers etc. High ranking members of Arkan society are high ranking members of the Planetary Government, members of nepotistic business families, and the descendants of famous persons. Above all of them is the Planetary Governor. The Planetary Governor is elected by the people in a first past the post system. Every citizen of Arkan votes for the Governor each has a single vote. The only people that cannot vote are mutants, and criminals. Once a Planetary Governor has been elected he serves until his death at which point a new Governor is voted upon.
The Governor heads the entire planet and is responsible for its defense, imperial tithes, and the wellbeing of the people. The people vote for the candidate that they feel benefits them the most, thus most planetary governors fulfill that purpose well in relation to other imperial worlds. Not all provide for their people though, as that ruse was only needed to get elected, and thus protected by edict of the imperium. Imperial tithes are required of Arkan like almost every other imperial world. It supplies a vast amount of lumber, and produce, so vast that Arkan is not required to give units to the imperial guard or navy.
The Planetary defense force defends the planet from possible invasions, heretics, and lawbreakers. The unique property of Arkan draws a certain kind of criminal. Drug farmers come to Arkan from all over to plant illicit vegetation in the shield of the woods. The planetary defense force employs task forces to find destroy, and execute these criminals and their drugs. It does this by deploying scouting and recon forces on the ground which are equipped with horses that can traverse the terrain for months at a time without needing to refuel. Behind them are light infantry detachments made up of heavy weapons teams, equipped with mortars, rocket launchers, lascannons, and heavy bolters, general infantrymen, and sentinels ,which can traverse the forests due to their bipedal nature. The task force is then supported by air cavalry that drops troops via grav chute, or fast rope into combat; and provides air support. The aerial element also intercepts and destroys criminal aircraft. If the situation warrants it can execute aerial boarding protocols with vtol aircraft, or even moving planes.
The lack of imperial guard and navy recruitment has left the PDF with many veterans. In response to this the First Arkan Volunteer Group was formed by a veteran of the pdf that wished to fight on other worlds for the imperium. Ever since then volunteer groups have formed on Arkan that seek to serve the Imperium. The members of the 1ST AVG are the most veteran members of the PDF. They are given leave from the PDF to join the 1st AVG by the Planetary Governor. Each member of the 1st AVG must be given leave by the Governor and then accepted by its commander.
The 1st AVG itself is not under the command of anyone but its leader. It exists outside the authority of the Governor, as he only gives leave to its members and supplies them with some of their equipment. The organization itself is pretty much free to do as it wishes and take on tasks that please it. The freedom that this unit is able to operate with is both a boon and a burden. While the governor gives his blessing and supplies them with some equipment they still possess fewer resources than other regiments. To get around this they take on jobs that pay well, and resupply them. Surprisingly they are well equipped even with these logistical nightmares. They contain a vast array of aircraft, sentinels, camo cloaks, carapace armor, and hotshot lasguns but no tanks or any tracked or wheeled vehicles. Some suspect that they are regularly hired by inquisitors to perform jobs such as support a revolution on a world against a corrupt Planetary Governor as a way to keep inquisitorial involvement shrouded.
The pilots and men of the 1st AVG are all veterans that fight in the forests and the skies for an imperium that didn’t ask them to join.
are structurally, tactically, and equipmentally (thats not even a word) different than valhallan, or steel legion troopers. I'm not saying that they should be like marines at all. What i am saying is that the troops are weaker than they should be. Normal players that lack my crazy ridiculous restrictions, won't notice the failings of the IG infantry, because they will always have a transport, a tank, or artillery to back them up. Its never about a guardsmen and his rifle, instead its about the tank and its crew. If guardsmen are simply meat shields then why would i ever use more expensive meat shields if they both are only worth the amount of shielding they provide?
Give me outflanking, give me auxiliary krak grenade launchers (elysian book stuff), give me infiltrate, give me usable rough riders, give me something for my guardsmen to utilize so they can perform in a manner that represents their fluff and combat doctrine.
No one is going to travel in the woods for weeks on end without campfires, or loud vehicles and still end up operating in the same manner as a human wave. Marsoc has a much different battle structure to the airforce pjs. Give me rules and equipment that reflects this change in tactics and equipment. No one is going to give up something if they get nothing else in return.
my flaw is that i don't use any vehicles except the sentinel, taros jeep, and flyers. What is my strength, if my strength is supposed to be my tanks?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/18 04:53:22
Sledgehammer wrote: s
a better usage of the so called scalpel ability that the MT have is instead with veterans again. 3x snipers with camo cloaks can reach out and touch a lot of what is on the board, which fulfills the same role at picking off important units down field. Cover becomes irrelevant due to orders, which they will much more likely be in range of.
The rest of your post being basically subjective, this unit here is garbage and will never get within a thousand miles of the enemy's backboard (as opposed to the relative ease with which Scions accomplish this), while putting out a truly laughable amount of firepower that makes Scout Snipers look fearsome in comparison. They won't be killing jack and all they will get to do is capture objectives you can already easily hold, that isn't an issue.
So you've effectively missed half the point of taking Scions.
Sledgehammer wrote: so what you are saying is that #1 storm troopers are not there to kill marines, they are there for their special weapons. #2 they won't kill infantry units #3 they rely on additional support #4 they are there to take objectives.
a better usage of the so called scalpel ability that the MT have is instead with veterans again. 3x snipers with camo cloaks can reach out and touch a lot of what is on the board, which fulfills the same role at picking off important units down field. Cover becomes irrelevant due to orders, which they will much more likely be in range of.
if i am not buying storm troopers for their hotshots, then why am i buying storm troopers? they have less options in wargear (no camo), have less special weapons, and are priced more, presumably because of their hotshots.
if vehicles are a problem then there are 2 other more reliable ways of dealing with them also. Vendettas, and melta vets in Valkyries. 2 multi rocket pods and the multi laser will take care of infantry, and the veterans can take care of vehicles. If they need to get out of combat after they have taken the objective they can then mount up inside the valkyrie which is much faster then moves through cover.
With this setup you don't have to worry about randomness, and each unit is much better equipped at its intended goal. Not to mention most players i have faced will immediately focus fire on scions for fear of ap3.
there is no point in taking light infantry if you use tanks, tracked vehicles, armored units and large blob squads. that is not light infantry, that is a mass of guardsmen with outflank.
Light infantry operate without heavy support and instead rely on aircraft and smaller vehicles. To say you need armored support to make light infantry work, is to forfeit the idea of there being light infantry.
If their range were 24", scions would be a semi-viable choice. They need to be able to clear the immediate area when they deep strike because they will get wrecked in assault, but between the deep strike scatter and their short range, it's very unlikely that you're going to be able to order and/or rapid fire against a good target.
Unlike a vendetta that can alpha strike on the turn it comes in, naked scions struggle to get into the action by turn 4, and they've already missed half the game. If they could still infiltrate...or still had a pistol and ccw...then maybe, but as is they're not even very good at clearing small units off objectives. I only see their use in deep striking onto uncontested objectives (at 70 points, it's not a high price tag in larger battles).
As mentioned, they really seem like they're designed for armored or aerial assault: zoom up, disembark, and unload a platoon's worth of FRF hotshot fire into the enemy. I imagine the MT formations are very good for this. But in the AM codex, Scions aren't even particularly good at their appointed task, killing 3+ or 4+ infantry. They cost the same points as a Space Marine, but even in their rapid fire range on open ground they are only as good at killing marines as marines are at killing them, and that doesn't factor in how marines will slaughter them in CC, or the increased range of a bolter, or if they're in cover.
1) They don't need to clear the immediate area themselves. A) Don't throw them willy nilly into a pointless crossfire where they will get slaughtered and B) Use your support elements, you're playing Guard afterall.
2) Having Scions naked is a terrible idea to begin with, and your estimate there is way, way off. They should almost certainly be able to put out at least some fire the turn they arrive or the turn after - and if they survive to turn 4, or are still running around by that time, good- you want your backboard objective holders to stay alive even if it means you need to play them cautiously.
3) Vendettas can only effectively alpha-strike flyers, MC's and to a less extent than Scions, vehicles. They cannot reliably hold objectives in the backboard and cost 10 points more than the most expensive Scion Squad you can probably expect to have.
4) Their appointed task isn't killing 3+ or 4+ infantry. That AP3 is an asset, not the unit's purpose. They're not designed to beat Marines in a 1 on 1 firefight - do you send your mob of Guardsmen to singlehandedly deal with a squad of Marines? No. You add in your support assets to soften them up or finish them off.
The point of not taking any large or tracked vehicles is so they can maneuver and operate in dense foliage, and rubble that otherwise would get them seen, or harry their progress. The point is that by not taking any vehicles i should get something else in return. If the point of excluding large vehicles is to obtain better maneuverability, and stealth in these situations, but i receive no stealth or maneuverability, then there is no reason to ever do so.
But see that's your own limitations you put on yourself. The codex fluff states that infantry artiller and armor regiments need to work together. For an all infantry regiment will get cut down. If you play all armor you will get ambushed from troops and air. If your force foesnt work with supporting or covering elements you lose.
If you want your fluff to work you need to spam vets with camo cloaks and play on boards with heavy terrain. If you don't play on a board with heavy terrain you lose. Yet again guardsmen are just ordinary humans who are raised to fight where everything I. The galaxy has better technology, or is genetically engineered to kill. The guardsmen are outmatched. But we have numbers. That's how guard wins. We do a lot of damage with large numbers. You take our numbers away then have fun taking away your firepower too.
Sentinels. Taros jeeps, and fliers should be able to support a light infantry detachment. all 3 of them can perform multiple roles. taros can perform anti infantry, and anti tank. Sentinels can take care of infantry and tanks. Valkyries and vendettas can take of air, troops, tanks, and transport models. there should be nothing wrong with that supporting composition. they cover all the bases and they have served me well. I don't need tanks, as my current support is satisfactory. What i need are troops that can survive long enough, do enough damage, or can actually outflank/infiltrate so that their support can actually help them.
infantry, artillery, and tank elements don't always have to work hand in hand. Fluff wise the ghosts perform well as light infantry, as do the Elysian when they are on deep insertion missions. each are supported by a force much like the one i utilize. they benefit more than they lose by giving up tanks and large vehicles because they can actually move about enemy territory conducting reconnaissance, and strikes without being seen.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/18 16:10:36
Sledgehammer wrote: The point of not taking any large or tracked vehicles is so they can maneuver and operate in dense foliage, and rubble that otherwise would get them seen, or harry their progress. The point is that by not taking any vehicles i should get something else in return. If the point of excluding large vehicles is to obtain better maneuverability, and stealth in these situations, but i receive no stealth or maneuverability, then there is no reason to ever do so.
Well hiding doesn't help you. Your opponent sees everything you have on the board. And you do get stealth. Give all your vets camo cloaks. It's a cheap upgrade to grant +1 save. And you actually so have more mobility. Order "move move move" if you aren't taking vehicles you should have plenty of orders to go around.
And it doesn't matter what fluff your playing to or what story you create for yourself but guardsmen die in droves. They don't have access to great armor so most common weapons will always go through your armor. And your men are just human. They will only have toughness 3. Everything will wound them easily so that's where your problem is. People can stack wounds on you and it doesn't matter how much of a cover or armor save you got but once enough wounds stacks the unit will fail it's saves.
You also have to remember your guardsmen have lasguns. A weapon that's only effective when in large quantities because it rarely wounds.
Sledgehammer wrote: The point of not taking any large or tracked vehicles is so they can maneuver and operate in dense foliage, and rubble that otherwise would get them seen, or harry their progress. The point is that by not taking any vehicles i should get something else in return. If the point of excluding large vehicles is to obtain better maneuverability, and stealth in these situations, but i receive no stealth or maneuverability, then there is no reason to ever do so.
Well hiding doesn't help you. Your opponent sees everything you have on the board. And you do get stealth. Give all your vets camo cloaks. It's a cheap upgrade to grant +1 save. And you actually so have more mobility. Order "move move move" if you aren't taking vehicles you should have plenty of orders to go around.
And it doesn't matter what fluff your playing to or what story you create for yourself but guardsmen die in droves. They don't have access to great armor so most common weapons will always go through your armor. And your men are just human. They will only have toughness 3. Everything will wound them easily so that's where your problem is. People can stack wounds on you and it doesn't matter how much of a cover or armor save you got but once enough wounds stacks the unit will fail it's saves.
You also have to remember your guardsmen have lasguns. A weapon that's only effective when in large quantities because it rarely wounds.
What i am saying is that i agree lasguns should not be any more powerful, nor should the toughness of guardsmen change, but what i am saying is that i should be able to use my men in a different way because they themselves operate differently. One such way to reflect stealth tactics is by allowing some of them to be upgraded with outflank and or infiltrate. Inherently the stats of the guardsmen don't change. The only that that does change is their ability to engage and position themselves against units that they can actually wound or deal damage to. The guardsmen don't get anymore powerful, they just are able to actually utilize their strengths against targets that they choose to engage. Outflank and infiltrate would allow me to do that.
i will always give camo if they can equip it..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/18 18:12:50
I had made a post a while ago in the tactics section and it didn't seem to help but seeing as plenty of people pay attention to this thread I figured I would bring up a difficulty I am having. I don't like building lists to counter certain armies specifically but I do like to build all rounder lists to handle most if not all situations.
No my point or difficulty I am having is dark eldar.
Usually turn one if I'm going first they hide behind terrain and I have usually nothing to shot at. If there's night fighting then with their jinking they usually all have between a 2+ or 3+ cover save.
My opponent usually runs Lilith, duke or some archon I guess I don't know much of the hq stuff. Then there is usually 2-3 squads of wyches in a boats and usually 2 squads of warriors each in boats. Then there's some true born or something in venoms that spam a crazy amount of shots. His heavy slot usually has some ship that fires 3 lance shot or something. Then he usually uses this flier that fires a ton of large blasts that usually mulch my guardsmen.
I have plenty of guardsmen, russes, chimeras, heavy weapons teams to basically play mech, armor, or infantry based lists. I have acces to 2 valks or vendettas. I have wall of martyrs network pieces and aegis defense lines and a bastion. I also have sw allies.
The problem that I keep running into is that basically if I can't kill enough of his transports turn 1 and somehow kill most of the units in those transports he's usually assaulting me turn 2 and eliminating whole units. Entire blobs usually get dragged in and killed and vehicles and tanks get chewed up by lances and haywire grenades.
I don't want to build a list to specifically tool against de but I want something that can also handle most other armies like daemons, and marines(common in the meta).
What should I run or do.
My lists usually incorporate a tank commander(pask if points are there). I normally don't like putting pask in a punisher because I hate getting the tank up close and the de player has that ability on his ships that subracts 6" from my weapons range. Making pask need to get too close.
I like running vanquishers with lc hull and PC sponsons. I usually always incorporate a squad of 2 wyverns in almost all of my lists now as they really help me deal with any opponents infantry. Hydras would be nice against de but aside from them they aren't very helpful against other armies. To get rid of his cover saves I usually try torun blobs and use the ignores cover order.
I broke our DE player to the point that he doesn't play DE against IG or GK anymore, but I'd suggest to keep a couple squads of infantry loose to bubble wrap your blobs. Cheap SWS work well for this too if you have enough room to keep them from going around the other squads. If they have to stop to shoot the guys in front, you've won. If they have to assault the guys in front, you've won.
Also, isn't there an "ignore cover" order? That would work well on a HWS to put some pain on their paper skimmers.
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