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Loopstah wrote:Shame I still have 300 more models on the board than you do.

That can ignore cover, shoot twice or snipe out your herads depending on how I feel.

Lol. Guard aren't tau. A couple of units get one of those abilities half the time. Until you kill those five guardsmen, after which point it doesn't even do that.

easysauce wrote:so 1544 pts all dedicated to generating charges, compared to 1544pts worth of guard/eldar/tau shooting, you are putting fewer models on the table then they will be taking off with good lists.

This.

Demon factory is a non-issue because all you're really doing is spending your points on making more dudes. 40k is a game of killing power, which an all-summoning army doesn't really have all that well.

Really, this has the same problem that respawning conscripts used to with the old guard codex. An infinite pile of more free dudes, but they were so expensive, and they did such little else than just show up with more bodies that respawning guard armies weren't actually all that powerful.

People who wanted to win with guard brought leafblowers and focused on killing stuff, not on an endless wave of conscripts that didn't kill all that much of anything. Demon factory lists will be no different. They'll be a fun little schtick, but it will fade quickly. The hyperventilating will cease once people actually play against it a few times.

The list isn't like those conscripts though, not when all the units also have offensive psychic powers If the daemons multiply fast enough the firepower they can put out gets a little overwhelming.

In general I agree that heavy firepower and various alpha strike lists will do just fine against the Clown Car, but I also think it's a still a viable tournament build. The Clown Car is still very much in it's infancy as an idea, and I think people will get a little more inventive with it as they add some variety to the list. Summoning other types of daemons is also something I think will add tactical flex to the list. It's not the game breaking thing people thought it was though, not by a ,long shot.

Everybody talking bout Banishment and such, my pink horrors laugh at your banishment attempts with their +1 to Deny the Witch and their 40 dispel dice.


Also, people need to realize Daemon Factory is actually better if you take some Divination spells for the Heralds, you want to get stuff like Precog, Misfortune and Fortune, which gets it down to a 3+ Invulnerable with Cursed Earth.


Also, they're deep striking units. Take an Icon of Chaos, then they don't scatter. Or just cast Cursed Earth.

Trust me, Daemons Scattering on Deep Strike is the last of the Chaos Daemon players concern.

What hurts this army specifically is BARRAGE WEAPONS. Like Mortars and Thunderfires. As they can pick out the Heralds.

Hollismason wrote:
Everybody talking bout Banishment and such, my pink horrors laugh at your banishment attempts with their +1 to Deny the Witch and their 40 dispel dice.


Also, people need to realize Daemon Factory is actually better if you take some Divination spells for the Heralds, you want to get stuff like Precog, Misfortune and Fortune, which gets it down to a 3+ Invulnerable with Cursed Earth..

Whilst I agree that makes the list more powerful in a sense you are also sacrificing your ability to summon by doing so. You are using your dice pool and limiting the number of psykers that have access to the summoning chart, which makes it easier for me to know which guys to kill.

Bolter banner DA's in a Land raider with an allied contingent of 3 x Thunder fire cannons? something like that would tear through the T3 5++ Daemons and snipe out the Heralds?

I don't have a 7th ed book yet, so there might be a hole in my theory.

Dark Eldar with the Stormsurge formation. Torment Launchers on the Raiders. Include a Haemonculus in one of the Raiders with a Crucible of Malediction. Since the units don't scatter, you can guarantee that you will be in range. The Haemmy opens the Crucible first turn, requiring all the psykers within 3d6 of his Raider to pass a Ld (not Morale) test at a -4 or be removed with no saves.

Pretty sure that all flies.

Mostly all the troops that are spawned have objective secured. The daemon factory list is never going to win the kill points battle. Literally never. The objective battle however with reduced scatter neigh indefinite deep striking troops well thats a different story.

bodazoka wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Everybody talking bout Banishment and such, my pink horrors laugh at your banishment attempts with their +1 to Deny the Witch and their 40 dispel dice.


Also, people need to realize Daemon Factory is actually better if you take some Divination spells for the Heralds, you want to get stuff like Precog, Misfortune and Fortune, which gets it down to a 3+ Invulnerable with Cursed Earth..

Whilst I agree that makes the list more powerful in a sense you are also sacrificing your ability to summon by doing so. You are using your dice pool and limiting the number of psykers that have access to the summoning chart, which makes it easier for me to know which guys to kill.

Bolter banner DA's in a Land raider with an allied contingent of 3 x Thunder fire cannons? something like that would tear through the T3 5++ Daemons and snipe out the Heralds?

Not really two Herald's with full on access to Divination is plenty. Even one if you roll well. Most of Divination is Warp Charge one.

Also, don't forget they do have Flickering fire and Misfortune turns it into a very very powerful spell when you shoot at a unit. That's the point people are missing you shouldn't just be summoning Daemons every single turn but also using Flickering Fire and things like Misfortune to damage other armies.

Need some other support? Okay I use Sacrifice to summon a Herald of Slaanesh and take a level 1 Mastery in Telepathy. Oh i got a crappy roll on Telepathy? Okay Psychic Scream.

Okay I'm just going to roll up and write up a Daemon Factory thread.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
I'm sorta in the same boat. I don't think that it will be quite as over-the-top as some of these early playtests have shown. I think they got a lot of lucky dice rolls, and perhaps some misunderstandings of the Psychic phase, that went into these "awesome" first games with Daemon Factories.

Have you played a game against a list like this? When you do, using one of your mobility counters, will you update this thread?

I'm also excited to see how GK do against Daemons. Losing Warp Quake in favour of Banishment means that they're even more tailored to fight Daemons, and less adaptable against other armies. I'd like to see this classic matchup go down in 7e.

a buddy of mine who does tourneys is makeing a "demon factory" list as brokenly broken as he can for me monday, I will try to do a half arsed bat rep for you all.

I will be using the same list I have at 1750 for tourneys against him as pre 7th.

I will let dakka decide,


POLL ADDED

GK's IG or ORKS, I have 1750 lists I made for TAC,


what do you want to see take on the D-FACKTOREE!

hth really trashes daemons as well. Things like a khorne chaos lord eats a 19 man daemon unit a turn.

deathstars can multi charge and chew through a couple squads quickly. Instability is a bitch.

I actually think psycher heavy Eldar summoning in daemons with jetbike and waveserpent support is more of a threat.

And that's not even getting into concepts like beastar or powefields with wraithknight.

Dark Eldar will just laugh at this as they always do when a Demon player turns up.

I bet mechanized orks would tear them up.

Everything assaults turn 2.

Use a wagon full of boys to stick a large multi assault. Then use truk boys and manz to assault with full charge bonus and rack up combat res for instability.

Same with beastpacks or assault marines or even singing spears etc.

I've played GK vs a very experienced Tzeentch Daemon player.

I'm afraid it's not as easy as most people think.

They can't deal with mass summonings and the amount of shooting coming from so many Horror units overwhelms the GK defences.

It's a harsh list to face.

The Nurgle version is tough to beat too.

Intercept could help.

Start Worrying?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/597338.page

Hollismason wrote:
Start Worrying?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/597338.page

Even that guy mentions that Alpha Strikes can ruin your army.

I don't own any GK's so yes, I'm still worried.

As a Guard player I wouldn't be too worried about the daemon factory. I can fit twelve wyverns into a list and still have ~800 points to spend on a gak ton of troops to act as a buffer.

The Daemon Factories' capabilities all rely on surviving long enough to multiply, hence massive alpha-strikes will be its bane and daemon players have to plan accordingly.

And as Ailaros said, the Guard excel at putting down massive firepower downrange at the start of the game.

Brainstormed this list while taking a dump a few minutes ago:

Company Command Squad (Vox, Lascannon)
Platoon Command Squad
Infantry Squad (Lascannon, vox)
Infantry Squad (Lascannon)
Platoon Command Squad
Infantry Squad (Lascannon, vox)
Infantry Squad (Lascannon)
3xWyverns
3xWyverns
3xWyverns
Company Command Squad (Vox, Lascannon)
Veterans Squad
3xWyverns
Inquisitor (Psyocculum, 3xServo-Skulls)
Inquisitor (Psyocculum, 3xServo-Skulls)

1498

I mean, if you just wanted to be a tailoring mega dick. Then again, if someone was going to be enough of a dick to use a factory list against you in the first place...

 BlaxicanX wrote:


Brainstormed this list while taking a dump a few minutes ago:

Company Command Squad
Platoon Command Squad
50xConscripts
Platoon Command Squad
50xConscripts
3xWyverns
3xWyverns
3xWyverns
Company Command Squad
Platoon Command Squad
20xConscripts
3xWyverns
Inquisitor (psyocculum)
Inquisitor (psyocculum)
Inquisitor (psyocculum)

1500

I mean, if you just wanted to be a tailoring mega dick. Then again, if someone was going to be enough of a dick to use a factory list against you in the first place...

This is beautiful, well done. Could you fit in 9 servo skulls somehow to reduce scatter as well?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
As a Guard player I wouldn't be too worried about the daemon factory. I can fit twelve wyverns into a list and still have ~800 points to spend on a gak ton of troops to act as a buffer.

The Daemon Factories' capabilities all rely on surviving long enough to multiply, hence massive alpha-strikes will be its bane and daemon players have to plan accordingly.

And as Ailaros said, the Guard excel at putting down massive firepower downrange at the start of the game.

Brainstormed this list while taking a dump a few minutes ago:

Company Command Squad
Platoon Command Squad
50xConscripts
Platoon Command Squad
50xConscripts
3xWyverns
3xWyverns
3xWyverns
Company Command Squad
Platoon Command Squad
20xConscripts
3xWyverns
Inquisitor (psyocculum)
Inquisitor (psyocculum)
Inquisitor (psyocculum)

1500

I mean, if you just wanted to be a tailoring mega dick. Then again, if someone was going to be enough of a dick to use a factory list against you in the first place...

As someone who's been wanting to start guard for a while but isn't experienced in any way with them, don't platoons have to take at least two squads of regular infantry?

Thank you, sir!

It's occurred to me that you can only take two Inquisitors maximum, so the 50 points freed up from that will pay for 6 servo-skulls quite handily.

 Ignatius-Grulgor wrote:

As someone who's been wanting to start guard for a while but isn't experienced in any way with them, don't platoons have to take at least two squads of regular infantry?

You might be right. I don't have the codex on hand to confirm or deny.

Everyone's worried about Daemons and im just over here waiting to table them with my GK's lol

Edited the list above to take into consideration servo-skulls and the infantry squad requirements.

Combine the infantry squads into two 20-man blobs and attach the Inquisitors for BS10 against psykers. Everything else is self-explanatory.

Why Lascannon and not Autocannon? Wouldn't rate of fire be more useful?

Take Coteaz and 80 units of 2 henchmen, one psyker
so you get 82+d6 dices to denie their summoning attempts

sleekid wrote:
Take Coteaz and 80 units of 2 henchmen, one psyker
so you get 82+d6 dices to denie their summoning attempts

This would be amusing. Don't the inq psykers fire large blasts as well?

 easysauce wrote:

If you can bring an army like tau, eldar,

None of you poll options are good matchups, since those armies can use list building to counter deamon factory rather easily. Use Tau, Eldar, Vanilla Marines, DA, BA, Sisters. as 100% pure armies like most people play, you can even list build against deamons. Now lets see how your tactics works out.

 Jimsolo wrote:

Dark Eldar with the Stormsurge formation. Torment Launchers on the Raiders. Include a Haemonculus in one of the Raiders with a Crucible of Malediction. Since the units don't scatter, you can guarantee that you will be in range. The Haemmy opens the Crucible first turn, requiring all the psykers within 3d6 of his Raider to pass a Ld (not Morale) test at a -4 or be removed with no saves.

Pretty sure that all flies.

The stormsurge formation is a little crazy to say the least. Add in an allied farseer with Telepathy and you have more LD things to chuck out.

like Psykic scream

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

If you can bring an army like tau, eldar,

None of you poll options are good matchups, since those armies can use list building to counter deamon factory rather easily. Use Tau, Eldar, Vanilla Marines, DA, BA, Sisters. as 100% pure armies like most people play, you can even list build against deamons. Now lets see how your tactics works out.

1: all three matchups are just fine

2: every single codex can "list tailor" for things like this, the 3 selected are selected because they are the armies I actually own, and have 1750 TAC tournament lists made up for. I am not tailoring any of them to be anti demon. The whole point of this is to take a normal tournament list and see how it matches up.

3: if you are under the impression that "most people play" non allied tau/eldar... wtf I love your meta, taudar may as well have its own codex here.

4:wtf?!? you expect me to own every army...


the only "bad" matchup, if any, is the GK vs demons because people will whine and moan that GK only won because they are GK, or if they lose they will whine about how op Dfactory is. IN actuallity, I see GK as being the worst choice if I want to win, seeing as how I will not get any of the powers off that GK rely on, and they have to pay a lot of pts for a small # of models, with less alpha strike capability then tau/eldar/IG/DE and dont have the resiliance of orks.

I'm starting to brainstorm on how to beat a D-Factory list. Not really sure why, as I'm not so sure I'll ever actually face one.

Most competent opponents aren't just going to spam more horrors. They will spam horrors to cast, demonettes or Bloodletters to fight or plague bearers to camp on objectives.

I'm less worried about the raw summoning potential and far more worried about the sheer utility of it all. You can literally create an answer for almost every tactical situation out of thin air.

Which leads me to counters. I think (obviously) it's going to be important to focus on the things that can reliably generate WC's, like heralds (already mentioned) and horrors. I'm noticing we don't have to wipe the horror units, only hurt them. I see a lot of lists with 11-12 horrors, meaning you can significantly hinder their power by killing between 1-7 horrors, which shouldn't be to hard. Use your low power, massed shots (bolters, las guns) to put wounds on the horror units and use alpha-strike or precision fire to hunt heralds or casting greater demons.

To me it becomes slightly less overwhelming to think about putting 6 wounds on a demons squad rather than 6. We don't so much have to eradicate their ability to cast, just limit it's potential.