Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I just talked to the owner at my flgs, and he told me he sold all his Daemon battleforces, heralds, troops, and greater daemons over the weekend. This is somewhat surpriing in that his 40k sales have been way down since the Escalation release.

Reported to you by me for anecdotal evidence that GW may get exactly what it wanted out of this release.

Yup. Because some players are crazy lol .

I picked up the Daemon codex at the weekend just so I could see what I might be up against, as I guessed they might become more common.

It isn't the first time they've done this to move a lot of Daemons.

The White Dwarf that made Screamers and Flamers of Tzeentch broken moved a lot of plastic.

It was also a rather short reign as far as overpowered units goes as the Codex brought them back down to a saner level 6-7 months later.

New FaQ in 6 months limiting Summoning to Daemon Princes/Greater Daemons?

 Eldarain wrote:
New FaQ in 6 months limiting Summoning to Daemon Princes/Greater Daemons?

Don't count on it. They've got umpteen different Daemon units listed in the Malefic table in the main Rulebook. I strongly doubt they're going to undo anything with that table.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why we can't get nice things: as soon as a way to exploit a broken rule is detected, sales boost.

Daemons in 7th are either super-broken (via Malefic powers), or given many of the proposed nerfs players are currently discussing to fix that issue (ban Malefic, cap Warp Charge), super-terrible. Neither sounds like much fun to me, but clearly the latter appeals to TFG. Bad time to be a Daemon enthusiast either way you slice it. I'm considering selling my 5000 pts of (converted/painted) Daemons off while the tide is still high. Sure there's already plenty of people trawling eBay for Horrors as we speak.

 whigwam wrote:
Daemons in 7th are either super-broken (via Malefic powers), or given many of the proposed nerfs players are currently discussing to fix that issue (ban Malefic, cap Warp Charge), super-terrible. Neither sounds like much fun to me, but apparently it does to TFG. Bad time to be a Daemon enthusiast either way you slice it.

As a long time Daemon player, you get used to it.
We're still trying to live down the legacy that was 7th edition Fantasy Daemons for feth's sake!

 whigwam wrote:
Daemons in 7th are either super-broken or super-terrible.

Quote condensed by me.

The Internet in a nutshell right here folks.

Because of course, there's no way that daemons can be anything other than polar extremes, and don't have a codex which still has a number of interesting and viable units and combinations, some of which aren't as strong as in 6th and some of which are now interesting new possibilities.

Just keep your stuff, and make a T-Shirt something like "I Played Daemons Before They Were Cool" or some gak

Experiment 626 wrote:

As a long time Daemon player, you get used to it.
We're still trying to live down the legacy that was 7th edition Fantasy Daemons for feth's sake!

To be fair, I'm hardly one to speak. I played 27 Screamers/27 Flamers for a time. But I promise I felt really bad about it at the time. Now, I don't think I could go back. Especially since the latest iteration of Broken-Daemons incredibly sounds even more boring than Screamer/Flamer spam was.

I don't need it.
I don't need it.
I definitely don't need it.
I don't need it.
I don't need it.
I don't need it.
I don't need it.



I... need... it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 jasper76 wrote:
Just keep your stuff, and make a T-Shirt something like "I Played Daemons Before They Were Cool" or some gak

Lol, I might actually do that!

It's just nice that through malefic, it is actually an opportunity for me to use all the lovingly painted, converted and collected units I can't normally justify points for in a 1500 list. Because nothing is gak when it's free!

 jasper76 wrote:
Just keep your stuff, and make a T-Shirt something like "I Played Daemons Before They Were Cool" or some gak

I was thinking something like, "Yes, I play Daemons. All problems with my army of choice can inserted here:" under which is a picture of a generic bum hole.
And on the back, maybe have it read, "Get over it Princess!"

 azreal13 wrote:

 whigwam wrote:
Daemons in 7th are either super-broken or super-terrible.

Quote condensed by me.

The Internet in a nutshell right here folks.

Because of course, there's no way that daemons can be anything other than polar extremes, and don't have a codex which still has a number of interesting and viable units and combinations, some of which aren't as strong as in 6th and some of which are now interesting new possibilities.

Not everything is shades of gray. Daemons were broken in 6th when the Flamer/Screamer WD came out. That was obvious at first glance, and undeniable after we started seeing battle reports featuring what maxed out Flamer/Screamers could do. They were a blight on the competitive meta and I think you'd be hard-pressed to find many serious 40k players who would say otherwise.

The same is true for the current Malefic-spamming daemons. We've read the rules. We've seen the reports. The fact is, the latest iteration of Daemons will spoil a great many games, just like Flamer/Screamers did. That is why there is a lot less discussion about 'How does my army beat Malefic Daemons?' and a lot more 'How could a tournament ruleset fix Malefic Daemons?' That's the discussion I'm seeing in every forum I visit, without exception.

If you want more subtlety, more attention to nuance, then here you go: FMC's, the backbone of Daemons' most competitive 6th list, have taken a drastic dip in power. Fiends are no longer competitively viable. On the other hand, Maulerfiends have improved markedly. Screamers look to be very effective given the new transport/vehicle-friendly meta. I could go on, unit-by-unit, but that analysis doesn't mean a whole lot. The headline is 'MALEFIC POWERS: WE CAN USE THEM A LOT NOW' and the rest is all subtle, nuanced, and ultimately unimportant in comparison.

Wait what did they do to fiends!? ;-;

 StarTrotter wrote:
Wait what did they do to fiends!? ;-;

Psykers within range are now just simply -1 LD, not just for psychic tests.

Well, kudos to GW for coming up with simple way of selling a lot of existing stock. I mean, if people are really that eager to jump on the big spending train then why not run them for all they're worth?

 whigwam wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 whigwam wrote:
Daemons in 7th are either super-broken or super-terrible.

Quote condensed by me.

The Internet in a nutshell right here folks.

Because of course, there's no way that daemons can be anything other than polar extremes, and don't have a codex which still has a number of interesting and viable units and combinations, some of which aren't as strong as in 6th and some of which are now interesting new possibilities.

Not everything is shades of gray. Daemons were broken in 6th when the Flamer/Screamer WD came out. That was obvious at first glance, and undeniable after we started seeing battle reports featuring what maxed out Flamer/Screamers could do. They were a blight on the competitive meta and I think you'd be hard-pressed to find many serious 40k players who would say otherwise.

The same is true for the current Malefic-spamming daemons. We've read the rules. We've seen the reports. The fact is, the latest iteration of Daemons will spoil a great many games, just like Flamer/Screamers did. That is why there is a lot less discussion about 'How does my army beat Malefic Daemons?' and a lot more 'How could a tournament ruleset fix Malefic Daemons?' That's the discussion I'm seeing in every forum I visit, without exception.

If you want more subtlety, more attention to nuance, then here you go: FMC's, the backbone of Daemons' most competitive 6th list, have taken a drastic dip in power. Fiends are no longer competitively viable. On the other hand, Maulerfiends have improved markedly. Screamers look to be very effective given the new transport/vehicle-friendly meta. I could go on, unit-by-unit, but that analysis doesn't mean a whole lot. The headline is 'MALEFIC POWERS: WE CAN USE THEM A LOT NOW' and the rest is all subtle, nuanced, and ultimately unimportant in comparison.

But they're only broken if you choose those units/and or powers

I take your point about a competitive environment, but then they'll either be so good everyone will use them, and if everything is broken, nothing is. Or, alternatively, the dust will settle and counters will emerge, or the theory of the list will not support the reality.

As a casual player, albeit not CAAC, I simply don't make power lists, nor do the majority of my regular opponents, if they do bring a competitive list to a friendly game, I make damn sure they pay for it in the cross table banter.

The daemon book is now at an extreme of power levels at the extreme end of the game, for those of us who are closer to the centre, it is different, but neither broken nor gutted.

My thought on the Daemons issue would be (at least in a tournament setting) to let players bring a sideboard of a set points value (say 750 for a 1500 point event), like in Magic. No proxies, you can only play with models you actually own, and once you have summoned your 750 you're done (of course, units that get shot off the board can be resummoned). It would take a little refinement, but it could help limit some of the proposed shenanigans.

If you extended this idea to other factions, it could get really interesting - oh, I'm playing against IG/AM this round? Better sideboard in my AT. But, that's a different concept and would require a much bigger re-work of tournament rules and player expectations/preparation.

That's certainly something we've readily agreed on in our club, summoned models must be the correct model or appropriate "counts as," fully painted and based.

azreal13 wrote:But they're only broken if you choose those units/and or powers

I take your point about a competitive environment, but then they'll either be so good everyone will use them, and if everything is broken, nothing is. Or, alternatively, the dust will settle and counters will emerge, or the theory of the list will not support the reality.

As a casual player, albeit not CAAC, I simply don't make power lists, nor do the majority of my regular opponents, if they do bring a competitive list to a friendly game, I make damn sure they pay for it in the cross table banter.

The daemon book is now at an extreme of power levels at the extreme end of the game, for those of us who are closer to the centre, it is different, but neither broken nor gutted.

Well, we are definitely looking at the game from different perspectives. Even pick-up games at my local stores have a pretty competitive edge to them. Most of our locals seem to be constantly practicing for some tournament or another, and they like it that way. I myself haven't played at a FLGS, or really anywhere but GT's, for the past couple years. So the kind of gentlemen's agreement you speak of, where people recognize and avoid the most extreme, cut-throat lists, doesn't really exist in my 40K reality.

The argument that 'everyone will take Daemons, so everything will be balanced' kind of misses the point. Sure, a Daemon v Daemon v Daemon tournament might be balanced in some manner of speaking. But what I mean when I say balance is balance between armies, or balance between styles of play. For competitive 40K to be at all interesting, there needs to be some variety. Of course, there will always be that codex lagging 2 editions behind, or GW will release an army laughably weak compared to other recent releases (e.g. Chaos, DA vs. Tau, Eldar). Perfect balance is never going to happen. But GW sometimes comes close, and the more viable armies we've got, the better. I've heard countless tournament players bemoan the lack of variety across the endless top tables of Tau, Eldar, Space Marines, and Daemons...I don't recall anyone saying, 'Gee, wouldn't it be better if we just all played the same army?' Because no one wants that kind of 'balance.' And if that's the scenario Malefic Daemons bring about, competitive 40K will be dead in the water. To avoid that, TO's will likely revise, restrict, and ban until the problem is fixed. The most likely outcome of that is that Daemons will be dead in the water instead of the whole game. Fair enough. However, as a Daemon player who frequents tournaments, neither of those options seem very pleasant to me.

I'm glad things look better from the center, and that your gaming group is able to be reasonable in the face of unreasonable rules. I live on the extreme fringe, like it or not (and I'll be honest, I like it), so we are facing two different scenarios entirely. You get to keep having fun, and I get to feel very silly for expecting GW to ever produce a reasonable, balanced ruleset. You win.

I just got told by a GK store owner to simply not play against players using the cheese army.
Guess that's my solution.

On the + side of the deamon summoning thing, apparently each division of summoned deamons is worth a victory point. So I'll be more than happy to play against deamon summoning in any VP game.

It doesn't surprise me. The new rules are giving me some push to actually start a pure Slaanesh army that I've been thinking about for some time.

 whigwam wrote:

azreal13 wrote:But they're only broken if you choose those units/and or powers

I take your point about a competitive environment, but then they'll either be so good everyone will use them, and if everything is broken, nothing is. Or, alternatively, the dust will settle and counters will emerge, or the theory of the list will not support the reality.

As a casual player, albeit not CAAC, I simply don't make power lists, nor do the majority of my regular opponents, if they do bring a competitive list to a friendly game, I make damn sure they pay for it in the cross table banter.

The daemon book is now at an extreme of power levels at the extreme end of the game, for those of us who are closer to the centre, it is different, but neither broken nor gutted.

Well, we are definitely looking at the game from different perspectives. Even pick-up games at my local stores have a pretty competitive edge to them. Most of our locals seem to be constantly practicing for some tournament or another, and they like it that way. I myself haven't played at a FLGS, or really anywhere but GT's, for the past couple years. So the kind of gentlemen's agreement you speak of, where people recognize and avoid the most extreme, cut-throat lists, doesn't really exist in my 40K reality.

The argument that 'everyone will take Daemons, so everything will be balanced' kind of misses the point. Sure, a Daemon v Daemon v Daemon tournament might be balanced in some manner of speaking. But what I mean when I say balance is balance between armies, or balance between styles of play. For competitive 40K to be at all interesting, there needs to be some variety. Of course, there will always be that codex lagging 2 editions behind, or GW will release an army laughably weak compared to other recent releases (e.g. Chaos, DA vs. Tau, Eldar). Perfect balance is never going to happen. But GW sometimes comes close, and the more viable armies we've got, the better. I've heard countless tournament players bemoan the lack of variety across the endless top tables of Tau, Eldar, Space Marines, and Daemons...I don't recall anyone saying, 'Gee, wouldn't it be better if we just all played the same army?' Because no one wants that kind of 'balance.' And if that's the scenario Malefic Daemons bring about, competitive 40K will be dead in the water. To avoid that, TO's will likely revise, restrict, and ban until the problem is fixed. The most likely outcome of that is that Daemons will be dead in the water instead of the whole game. Fair enough. However, as a Daemon player who frequents tournaments, neither of those options seem very pleasant to me.

I'm glad things look better from the center, and that your gaming group is able to be reasonable in the face of unreasonable rules. I live on the extreme fringe, like it or not (and I'll be honest, I like it), so we are facing two different scenarios entirely. You get to keep having fun, and I get to feel very silly for expecting GW to ever produce a reasonable, balanced ruleset. You win.

Heh, you've clearly not read a lot of discussions I've participated in, as you're essentially repeating my usual argument back to me. Just because the problems around the ruleset don't impact on me too severely, doesn't mean I'm blind and deaf to them, but if you're going to inhabit the extreme end of the playing spectrum, then I'm afraid you have to expect to be subject to changes in the most extreme way. As with any other sport or competitive practice, the more seriously you take it, the greater impact small changes will have.

I agree, the game as a whole would be better if the Eldar codex was totally redacted all the books were balanced against one another, but as of now, the "dominance" of malefic Daemons is largely theoretical, but if it does pan out, then, as you say, TOs can take action (removing their immunity to any double generating perils would likely do a lot) or players can decide where there loyalties ultimately lie - victory or the integrity of the game?