BA losing fast on everything but baals, yet not losing the extra 30/40pts off the price tag...

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**StarTrotter**

Kain wrote:
Relapse wrote:
Kain wrote:
Purifier wrote:
Davor wrote:
Now you know what it's like to be a Tyranid player.

What did Tyranids lose while keeping the pricetag for it?

Trygons and Meleerants that weren't a waste of points (though Meleerants were verging on "waste of points" since Armored Shell and Biomancy was nixed) and precious FoC slots. Shadow in the Warp as mentioned before, only really serving to screw with a Perils roll. Vector striking effectiveness. Rupture Cannons and Venom cannons having any claim to not sucking. Any hopes of getting to actually tear things up in assault as virtually all the Nerfs from the edition transition that negatively affected the Tyranids were the ones that made Assault go from bad to worse.

At this point, Assault has become a privilege of a handful of units durable/expendable to survive several rounds of shooting, and fast enough to race across the board into it. Unfortunately Tyranid units tend to either be too squishy and/or too slow to get into assault.

So continues the transformation of the Tyranids from mostly assault focused with some shooty support to a mostly short ranged shooting army.

Much like how the Orks have had to go pretty much all dakka all the time because out of their codex; only MAN missiles and Nob Bikers are going to be getting into assault in one piece, or how Khornate armies get worse with every edition because assault gets weaker every edition and they just don't have any game that isn't assault.

Blood angels? Again, Assault focused army being screwed over by GW seemingly deciding it wants Assault to become as irrelevant a phase as possible unless you're wicked fast and have great resiliency per point.

The nerf to all their vehicles and the loss of all their unique psyker powers is essentially another kick in the balls to an army that's suffered through all of 6e hovering at the bottom tiers.

I have to disagree on the Orks having problems in assault, having watched an Ork player use quite a bit of assault to take down an Eldar army that featured three Wraith Knights. All three knights were eliminated by Ork assault.

This is quite possibly the most picture perfect example of using an anecdote poorly to prove your point I have ever seen.

I mean...

Wow..

You have found the holy grail, you have reached the nirvana of anecdotal evidence. All hail to you.

You have achieved enlightenment you silly goose.

Also, unless those were Nobz and Bosses, I'm not sure how that was possible considering that basic boys can't even hurt wraithknights at all.

And I've seen games where orks got pushed back each turn because of Tau shooting. The anecdotes shall fight the anecdotes!

TO WAR!

**Happyjew**

I would like to point out that in 6th edition, BA players were referred to the SM vehicle section for stats, and I don't recall anyone arguing that BA vehicles lost Fast then as well.

**Relapse**

Kain wrote:
Relapse wrote:
Kain wrote:
Purifier wrote:
Davor wrote:
Now you know what it's like to be a Tyranid player.

What did Tyranids lose while keeping the pricetag for it?

Trygons and Meleerants that weren't a waste of points (though Meleerants were verging on "waste of points" since Armored Shell and Biomancy was nixed) and precious FoC slots. Shadow in the Warp as mentioned before, only really serving to screw with a Perils roll. Vector striking effectiveness. Rupture Cannons and Venom cannons having any claim to not sucking. Any hopes of getting to actually tear things up in assault as virtually all the Nerfs from the edition transition that negatively affected the Tyranids were the ones that made Assault go from bad to worse.

At this point, Assault has become a privilege of a handful of units durable/expendable to survive several rounds of shooting, and fast enough to race across the board into it. Unfortunately Tyranid units tend to either be too squishy and/or too slow to get into assault.

So continues the transformation of the Tyranids from mostly assault focused with some shooty support to a mostly short ranged shooting army.

Much like how the Orks have had to go pretty much all dakka all the time because out of their codex; only MAN missiles and Nob Bikers are going to be getting into assault in one piece, or how Khornate armies get worse with every edition because assault gets weaker every edition and they just don't have any game that isn't assault.

Blood angels? Again, Assault focused army being screwed over by GW seemingly deciding it wants Assault to become as irrelevant a phase as possible unless you're wicked fast and have great resiliency per point.

The nerf to all their vehicles and the loss of all their unique psyker powers is essentially another kick in the balls to an army that's suffered through all of 6e hovering at the bottom tiers.

I have to disagree on the Orks having problems in assault, having watched an Ork player use quite a bit of assault to take down an Eldar army that featured three Wraith Knights. All three knights were eliminated by Ork assault.

This is quite possibly the most picture perfect example of using an anecdote poorly to prove your point I have ever seen.

I mean...

Wow..

You have found the holy grail, you have reached the nirvana of anecdotal evidence. All hail to you.

You have achieved enlightenment you silly goose.

Also, unless those were Nobz and Bosses, I'm not sure how that was possible considering that basic boys can't even hurt wraithknights at all.

Here's the game:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kd9yJEFqkME

Pretty much any game Ihave seen Rich use his Orks in, he smokes whoever he faces.

**Sigvatr**

Happyjew wrote:
I would like to point out that in 6th edition, BA players were referred to the SM vehicle section for stats, and I don't recall anyone arguing that BA vehicles lost Fast then as well.

Yep, because of their nifty special rule mentioned in the codex

**illuknisaa**

BA has 3+ armor save, bs 4 and bolters there is literally nothing that makes me shed a single tear for you.

Orks have lost bunch of stuff without losing the price tag for it. Eg. ork trukk costs 40pts too much. It is a transport with no capacity or movement. If I'm lucky my unit might explode closer to enemies and maybe I'll get to use the bs 2 big shoota before it exlodes. On top of that all the upgrades cost a fortune.

Even a mob with pk nob in a trukk can barely kill a 5 man tactical squad without any upgrades.

Cry some moar.

**StarTrotter**

You might be happy to find out that orks are getting a new codex in 1-2 weeks then

Seriously though, orks and BA are some of the worst codices in the game. There's no use in fighting eachother at the bottom.

**Andilus Greatsword**

illuknisaa wrote:
BA has 3+ armor save, bs 4 and bolters there is literally nothing that makes me shed a single tear for you.

A single Assault Marine costs 3x as much as a Boy. And BA shooting sucks. Not to say that Orks have it much better, but y'know... I'm just hoping SW get an update before the year's end.

**Poly Ranger**

illuknisaa wrote:
BA has 3+ armor save, bs 4 and bolters there is literally nothing that makes me shed a single tear for you.

Orks have lost bunch of stuff without losing the price tag for it. Eg. ork trukk costs 40pts too much. It is a transport with no capacity or movement. If I'm lucky my unit might explode closer to enemies and maybe I'll get to use the bs 2 big shoota before it exlodes. On top of that all the upgrades cost a fortune.

Even a mob with pk nob in a trukk can barely kill a 5 man tactical squad without any upgrades.

Cry some moar.

An ork costs 6pts.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also an AM conscript has 2 worse ws AND bs and all their other stats are lower than a marines... as well as their weaponary! As if! Its just not fair on those lowly conscripts eh?

**Kain**

Relapse wrote:
Kain wrote:
Relapse wrote:
Kain wrote:
Purifier wrote:
Davor wrote:
Now you know what it's like to be a Tyranid player.

What did Tyranids lose while keeping the pricetag for it?

Trygons and Meleerants that weren't a waste of points (though Meleerants were verging on "waste of points" since Armored Shell and Biomancy was nixed) and precious FoC slots. Shadow in the Warp as mentioned before, only really serving to screw with a Perils roll. Vector striking effectiveness. Rupture Cannons and Venom cannons having any claim to not sucking. Any hopes of getting to actually tear things up in assault as virtually all the Nerfs from the edition transition that negatively affected the Tyranids were the ones that made Assault go from bad to worse.

At this point, Assault has become a privilege of a handful of units durable/expendable to survive several rounds of shooting, and fast enough to race across the board into it. Unfortunately Tyranid units tend to either be too squishy and/or too slow to get into assault.

So continues the transformation of the Tyranids from mostly assault focused with some shooty support to a mostly short ranged shooting army.

Much like how the Orks have had to go pretty much all dakka all the time because out of their codex; only MAN missiles and Nob Bikers are going to be getting into assault in one piece, or how Khornate armies get worse with every edition because assault gets weaker every edition and they just don't have any game that isn't assault.

Blood angels? Again, Assault focused army being screwed over by GW seemingly deciding it wants Assault to become as irrelevant a phase as possible unless you're wicked fast and have great resiliency per point.

The nerf to all their vehicles and the loss of all their unique psyker powers is essentially another kick in the balls to an army that's suffered through all of 6e hovering at the bottom tiers.

I have to disagree on the Orks having problems in assault, having watched an Ork player use quite a bit of assault to take down an Eldar army that featured three Wraith Knights. All three knights were eliminated by Ork assault.

This is quite possibly the most picture perfect example of using an anecdote poorly to prove your point I have ever seen.

I mean...

Wow..

You have found the holy grail, you have reached the nirvana of anecdotal evidence. All hail to you.

You have achieved enlightenment you silly goose.

Also, unless those were Nobz and Bosses, I'm not sure how that was possible considering that basic boys can't even hurt wraithknights at all.

Here's the game:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kd9yJEFqkME

Pretty much any game Ihave seen Rich use his Orks in, he smokes whoever he faces.

This is not scientifically valid evidence unless you can find enough games like this to establish a pattern, which would mean a plurality out of hundreds or thousands of games.

**illuknisaa**

Andilus Greatsword wrote:
illuknisaa wrote:
BA has 3+ armor save, bs 4 and bolters there is literally nothing that makes me shed a single tear for you.

A single Assault Marine costs 3x as much as a Boy. And BA shooting sucks. Not to say that Orks have it much better, but y'know... I'm just hoping SW get an update before the year's end.

Ba shoots then assaults (3 marines and 9 orks):

1 ork dead to bolt pistols
Ork overwatch (lets be generous and assume 2 sluggas hit), 1 wound, gets saved with 3+ armor save.
Ba gets 9 attacks (charge+pistol+ccw), 4 hit, 2 wound and propably 2 dead due to failing 6+
Orks get to hit with 18 attacks, 9 hit, 3 wound, 1 failed save.
Ba win combat, orks need to pass LD at 6 (which they propably won't) and orks get wiped out.

Poly Ranger wrote:
illuknisaa wrote:

An ork costs 6pts.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also an AM conscript has 2 worse ws AND bs and all their other stats are lower than a marines... as well as their weaponary! As if! Its just not fair on those lowly conscripts eh?

You can only put 12 orks in a trukk, so what was your point?

**streamdragon**

Voodoo_Chile wrote:
It looks like the Blood Angels FAQ has been updated to include the Fast rule for the vehicles which lost it:

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer-40k/7th-faq/Blood_Angels_v1.0_May14.pdf

Like most people thought, probably just a copy/paste error. Hanlon's Razor at its finest.

**Relapse**

Kain wrote:
Relapse wrote:
Kain wrote:
Relapse wrote:
Kain wrote:
Purifier wrote:
Davor wrote:
Now you know what it's like to be a Tyranid player.

What did Tyranids lose while keeping the pricetag for it?

Trygons and Meleerants that weren't a waste of points (though Meleerants were verging on "waste of points" since Armored Shell and Biomancy was nixed) and precious FoC slots. Shadow in the Warp as mentioned before, only really serving to screw with a Perils roll. Vector striking effectiveness. Rupture Cannons and Venom cannons having any claim to not sucking. Any hopes of getting to actually tear things up in assault as virtually all the Nerfs from the edition transition that negatively affected the Tyranids were the ones that made Assault go from bad to worse.

At this point, Assault has become a privilege of a handful of units durable/expendable to survive several rounds of shooting, and fast enough to race across the board into it. Unfortunately Tyranid units tend to either be too squishy and/or too slow to get into assault.

So continues the transformation of the Tyranids from mostly assault focused with some shooty support to a mostly short ranged shooting army.

Much like how the Orks have had to go pretty much all dakka all the time because out of their codex; only MAN missiles and Nob Bikers are going to be getting into assault in one piece, or how Khornate armies get worse with every edition because assault gets weaker every edition and they just don't have any game that isn't assault.

Blood angels? Again, Assault focused army being screwed over by GW seemingly deciding it wants Assault to become as irrelevant a phase as possible unless you're wicked fast and have great resiliency per point.

The nerf to all their vehicles and the loss of all their unique psyker powers is essentially another kick in the balls to an army that's suffered through all of 6e hovering at the bottom tiers.

I have to disagree on the Orks having problems in assault, having watched an Ork player use quite a bit of assault to take down an Eldar army that featured three Wraith Knights. All three knights were eliminated by Ork assault.

This is quite possibly the most picture perfect example of using an anecdote poorly to prove your point I have ever seen.

I mean...

Wow..

You have found the holy grail, you have reached the nirvana of anecdotal evidence. All hail to you.

You have achieved enlightenment you silly goose.

Also, unless those were Nobz and Bosses, I'm not sure how that was possible considering that basic boys can't even hurt wraithknights at all.

Here's the game:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kd9yJEFqkME

Pretty much any game Ihave seen Rich use his Orks in, he smokes whoever he faces.

This is not scientifically valid evidence unless you can find enough games like this to establish a pattern, which would mean a plurality out of hundreds or thousands of games.

It makes the blanket claim that Orks are garbage a lie, though. Just like the claim that was put out earlier that he must have used a biker mob on the Wraith Knights to be able to take down three in the same game.

**Sigvatr**

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240/597140.page#6883312

/le thread

**Kain**

Relapse wrote:
Kain wrote:
Relapse wrote:
Kain wrote:
Relapse wrote:
Kain wrote:
Purifier wrote:
Davor wrote:
Now you know what it's like to be a Tyranid player.

What did Tyranids lose while keeping the pricetag for it?

Trygons and Meleerants that weren't a waste of points (though Meleerants were verging on "waste of points" since Armored Shell and Biomancy was nixed) and precious FoC slots. Shadow in the Warp as mentioned before, only really serving to screw with a Perils roll. Vector striking effectiveness. Rupture Cannons and Venom cannons having any claim to not sucking. Any hopes of getting to actually tear things up in assault as virtually all the Nerfs from the edition transition that negatively affected the Tyranids were the ones that made Assault go from bad to worse.

At this point, Assault has become a privilege of a handful of units durable/expendable to survive several rounds of shooting, and fast enough to race across the board into it. Unfortunately Tyranid units tend to either be too squishy and/or too slow to get into assault.

So continues the transformation of the Tyranids from mostly assault focused with some shooty support to a mostly short ranged shooting army.

Much like how the Orks have had to go pretty much all dakka all the time because out of their codex; only MAN missiles and Nob Bikers are going to be getting into assault in one piece, or how Khornate armies get worse with every edition because assault gets weaker every edition and they just don't have any game that isn't assault.

Blood angels? Again, Assault focused army being screwed over by GW seemingly deciding it wants Assault to become as irrelevant a phase as possible unless you're wicked fast and have great resiliency per point.

The nerf to all their vehicles and the loss of all their unique psyker powers is essentially another kick in the balls to an army that's suffered through all of 6e hovering at the bottom tiers.

I have to disagree on the Orks having problems in assault, having watched an Ork player use quite a bit of assault to take down an Eldar army that featured three Wraith Knights. All three knights were eliminated by Ork assault.

This is quite possibly the most picture perfect example of using an anecdote poorly to prove your point I have ever seen.

I mean...

Wow..

You have found the holy grail, you have reached the nirvana of anecdotal evidence. All hail to you.

You have achieved enlightenment you silly goose.

Also, unless those were Nobz and Bosses, I'm not sure how that was possible considering that basic boys can't even hurt wraithknights at all.

Here's the game:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kd9yJEFqkME

Pretty much any game Ihave seen Rich use his Orks in, he smokes whoever he faces.

This is not scientifically valid evidence unless you can find enough games like this to establish a pattern, which would mean a plurality out of hundreds or thousands of games.

It makes the blanket claim that Orks are garbage a lie, though. Just like the claim that was put out earlier that he must have used a biker mob on the Wraith Knights to be able to take down three in the same game.

You need S5 or better to even put a wound on a Wraithknight.

That needs Nobz or Warbosses because boyz can only be S4 at best in assault and have no access to poison.

If Boyz are hurting Knights with anything but the nob leader, the rules are either being forgotten or cheating was involved.

And any army can do well if the dice are in their favor.

I could win every game with an all toxin sac termagant army if I never stopped rolling sixes for anything but leadership. Similarly I can still lose with a dozen seer stars if I never roll anything but ones for anything but leadership. That doesn't mean the termagants are good on their own or that seerstar is bad.

**kronk**

streamdragon wrote:
Voodoo_Chile wrote:
It looks like the Blood Angels FAQ has been updated to include the Fast rule for the vehicles which lost it:

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer-40k/7th-faq/Blood_Angels_v1.0_May14.pdf

Like most people thought, probably just a copy/paste error. Hanlon's Razor at its finest.

So the fast rule is back and we can stop crying, now?