Psyker ICs and the "Unit" word.

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**Kyutaru**

Or... and this is a big what if... perhaps the rules are INTENTIONALLY vague because Games Workshop wants us to Forge a Narrative and could care less about competitive balance. They tote 40k as a painting hobby that happens to also be a game. Every time there's a rules conflict, you roll a D6 to settle the matter. That's an OFFICIAL RULE!

The company doesn't care about making rulesets that are airtight... but perhaps that's because they don't want an airtight set of rules. We see them more as "guidelines" than an actual code!

**Elric Greywolf**

Here's some House Rules I drew up. If you're a TO, feel free to use them and modify them. It makes casting psychic pwoers act more like 6e, which I believe was the intent of the designers (although of course I can't prove that).

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/597632.page#6880569

**Nem**

Elric Greywolf wrote:
Here's some House Rules I drew up. If you're a TO, feel free to use them and modify them. It makes casting psychic pwoers act more like 6e, which I believe was the intent of the designers (although of course I can't prove that).

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/597632.page#6880569

I feel what you posted there is what it will turn out to be.

Except being able to manifest the same power within a unit

**Bharring**

I'm fairly sure that, if my first farseer fails to cast Fortune, my second farseer who also got it but is in the same unit isn't supposed to be able to cast it.

**extremefreak17**

needs FAQ badly

**jadedknight**

The other odd consequence is that any psyker in a unit can cast a power that another user knows.

E.g. you select a power the 'unit' knows. So if Farseer #1 knows fortune then Farseer #2 could cast it. Of course how you allocate perils in this case is completely ambiguous though it seems reasonable that Farseer #2 takes it in this case.

**Mymearan**

At one point they refer to an Astropath as a Psyker Unit. An Astropath is always part of a company command squad. So unless "psyker unit" does indeed refers to both lone psykers and psykers that are part of a unit, how can the Astropath be a Psyker Unit?

**Murrdox**

coredump wrote:
insaniak wrote:
coredump wrote:
Y'know... in several parts of that section, they seem to use "psyker unit" as a way to refer to psyker models, such as psyker ICs..

When not joined to another unit, an IC is a unit.

Well of course, but check out the page or two before this. They use the term 'unit' in many places that seem odd unless read as "psyker model or BoP unit" instead. IOW, the verbage just doesn't work well. If they are doing the same thing in this sentence, then it is not as limited as it first appears.

edit: Even if I follow this interpretation, I still think you add up all of the ML of each psyker in the unit. 5 warlocks do not contribute just 1 ML.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let's see some of the uses of "psyker unit":

Select psyker:
"To manifest a psychic power, you will first need to select one of your Psyker units. It does not matter if the selected unit is Falling Back or has Gone to Ground. "

So, is that the unit, or a specific model within the unit?

Take psychic test:
"A Psyker must pass a Psychic test to see if he can harness the power of the Warp."

That seems obviously a specific model within the unit

"If, when making a Psychic test, two or more dice rolls (before applying modifiers) were rolls of a 6, the unit attempting to manifest the psychic power suffers Perils of the Warp"

But what about that. Specific model in unit, or entire unit?

Perils of the Warp:
"If a unit suffers Perils of the Warp, roll a D6 and consult the Perils of the Warp table below"

So, entire unit, or specific model within that unit?

"... the psychic power still manifests, regardless of whether or not the Psyker in question suffers a Wound or is slain by Perils of the Warp."

That seems to imply they were talking about a specific model suffering Perils

Lets go back to Select Psyker:
"Then, select a psychic power known to the selected unit that te unit has not already attempted to manifest in this Psychic phase"

So far *every* time they have used the term "psyker unit", what they really mean is "A specific psyker model within a unit".... why is this time treated differently?

In addition to this:

"To manifest a psychic power, you will first need to select one of your Psyker units. It does not matter if the selected unit is Falling Back or has Gone to Ground. Then, select a psychic power known to the selected unit that the unit has not already attempted to manifest in this Psychic phase." emphasis theirs

I don't really see where the conflict is. In this case, the "Unit" that you're selecting is the Pskyer.

If you have a Weirdboy unit in a squad of Boyz, you do not select the "Boyz Unit" to manifest a Psychic power. The Boyz unit does not KNOW any psychic powers. It's not an eligible selection in the first place. In this context, it's obvious the intended word is "Psychic Model". However, GW doesn't specifically use the word "Model" because sometimes Psykers ARE units, such as in Brotherhood of Psychers.

I honestly don't think there is a rule conflict here. Unless you are choosing a Brotherhood of Pskyers unit, "Unit" in this context is meant as "The Pskyer". Not "The Pskyer's Unit".

**easysauce**

IC's are part of a unit, for ALL purposes.

a psyker IC, in a BOP psyker unit, is not two units, it is ONE unit, and that unit still has BOP's rule.

this means that that UNIT can cast any power known to it (so the BOP's powers and IC's powers), you cannot say the IC is casting a power one he is in a unit of BOP's, only units cast powers, not models.

that unit may not manifest the same power twice,
perils is resolved as per BOP's rule,

that whole unit dies if it casts the greater demon summon power

and so on.

**katana100**

Pg 22 - For the purposes of all rules, the term 'psyker' and 'psyker unit' refers to any unit with the Psykee (pg 170), Psychich Pilot (pg 170) or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers (pg 159) special...

But I see it that psyker (pg 170) does not confure to a unit same as IC does not confure to a unit so you can have a unit of psyker but they are not a psyker unit as defined in Brotherhood of psykers (Pg 159) - a unit containing at least one model with this special rule is a psyker unit....

So now we see a clear definition difference of psyker and psyker unit... So we have have units of psykers ans psyker units

So what I THINK this is meant to mean is psyker are treated sepratly and psyker units are treated as one thing... Ergo never asd a psyker to a unit of brotherhood of psyker cus then that rule confers to him as well :/

**Elric Greywolf**

easysauce, answer this question:

If a Farseer is attached to three Warlocks, and the Farseer rolls a Perils, which model suffers the Perils?
Please use some BRB page numbers when you answer so that I can follow along.

And another question:
If two Farseers are joined to each other, how many WC does that unit generate? [note that each Farseer has the same rule, Psyker (Mastery Level 3), and special rules cannot stack]

**Murrdox**

easysauce wrote:
IC's are part of a unit, for ALL purposes.
.

That's true, and it's also not true. When you're talking about Warhammer 40k, the word "Unit" can mean many different things. You need to avoid taking the term too literally, or you end up with weird situations like I outlined above. Sometimes the rules refer to individual models as "models". Sometimes they're "units". Sometimes they're both.

If your interpretation of the rules is correct, then no Independent Character joined to another unit is capable of using Psychic powers. Because then a Farseer joined to a unit of Dire Avengers would no longer count as a "Psychic Unit".

An IC joined to another unit is treated as one unit. Yes. For the purposes of Moving, Shooting, being a target of enemy shooting, assault, etc... they all act as one unit. That part you've got correct.

However, that doesn't mean that you can't further sub-define the unit. Individual models can still be called "Units". If you have a space marine with a rocket launcher in a squad of tactical marines, he is the "unit with the rocket launcher".

An Independent Character doesn't stop being treated as a "Unit" simply because he's joined to another unit. They just ACT as one unit for most game purposes.

**Hollismason**

Elric Greywolf wrote:
easysauce, answer this question:

If a Farseer is attached to three Warlocks, and the Farseer rolls a Perils, which model suffers the Perils?
Please use some BRB page numbers when you answer so that I can follow along.

And another question:
If two Farseers are joined to each other, how many WC does that unit generate? [note that each Farseer has the same rule, Psyker (Mastery Level 3), and special rules cannot stack]

I figure you'll like this one.

I have a Herald of Tzeentch in a unit of Pink Horrors , The Herald of Tzeentch casts Possession. Do you Remove all of the unit?

The Pink Horrors Cast Possession do you remove the Heralds?

I dunno kind of looks like you do.

If a unit of Warlocks cast Possession do you removed all of the Warlocks?

**easysauce**

so I can target the IC psyker in a unit with shooting, because hes his own unit now/still?

he cannot LOS because the other models are not in his unit?

that IC is still a separate unit, so you cannot put him in a transport with the unit he joined?

and so on, too many things you break when you choose to not treat an IC as part of the unit for a particular rules purpose.

seems like you are picking and choosing what rules purposes that IC counts as part of the unit for, instead of treating it as such for ALL PURPOSES.

Unit=/=model, the two terms are 100% not interchangable, unit means unit, model means model.

power casting changed in 7th, its by unit, not by individual pyskers, and not separated by BOPs, deal with it,

other units get to buff you with WC's, but at the same time, putting your IC's in units got a bit of a nerf.

again, a IC by him self, is one unit, the unit he intends to join, pre him joining it is also a unit. once he has joined that unit, the two units become ONE unit. If that unit has at least one model with the psyker or BOP rule, its a psychic unit.

so we have a unit, with a psyker in it, which is now a SINGLE psykic unit, that casts a power that states the UNIT that cast it is now dead.

that UNIT, which is some dudes+psyker, is now dead. done and done, thats RAW.

a IC psyker, in a BOP unit, is still ONE unit, that cast a power, that cause the UNIT to die... hence the UNIT is now dead.

again, RAW.

perils tells you to assign it to the psyker if alone, or randomly if the unit has the BOP rule.

**Murrdox**

easysauce wrote:

again, a IC by him self, is one unit, the unit he intends to join, pre him joining it is also a unit. once he has joined that unit, the two units become ONE unit. If that unit has at least one model with the psyker or BOP rule, its a psychic unit.

so we have a unit, with a psyker in it, which is now a SINGLE psykic unit, that casts a power that states the UNIT that cast it is now dead.
.

So point me to a page in the rulebook that validates your point in bold. Because honestly you're making stuff up, and misunderstanding the definition of the word "Unit" as Games Workshop employs it. Or to be more accurate, Games Workshop has SEVERAL definitions for what a "unit" is, and you're insisting that only one of them applies.

**insaniak**

Murrdox wrote:
When you're talking about Warhammer 40k, the word "Unit" can mean many different things.

No, it can't. 'Units' are defined quite clearly at the front of the book.

You need to avoid taking the term too literally, ...

Written rules have to be taken literally. That's how written rules work.

If the written rule, taken literally, doesn't work, then the rule is badly written, and needs to be fixed.

**easysauce**

Murrdox wrote:

So point me to a page in the rulebook that validates your point in bold. Because honestly you're making stuff up, and misunderstanding the definition of the word "Unit" as Games Workshop employs it. Or to be more accurate, Games Workshop has SEVERAL definitions for what a "unit" is, and you're insisting that only one of them applies.

the pages that deal with pychic powers 20-26IIRC state what to do with the psyker rule, BOP"s, and psychic pilot and its just as I have said it.

please cite the pages with GW's official multiple definitions of "unit" please, because,
again GW has only ONE definition in book, at the front, that you take GW's singular definition, and call them out as having multiple definitions, shows who is lacking understanding here... I am not making assumptions, I am not assuming definitions outside the literal one GW has given us, I am following RAW to its logical conclusion,

namely that if GW says ICs are part of a unit for all purposes, that means that the IC is part of the unit for all purposes.

you need a lot more justification to turn "an IC is treated as part of the unit for ALL PURPOSES"
into
"an IC is treated as part of the unit for some but not all PURPOSES, and we wont spell out which is which"

then simply claiming with no evidence that GW has "multiple definitions" of units, which you cant even quote pg #'s for because they simply do not exist.

**katana100**

So I think it comes down to the difference between a unit with psykers in and a psyker unit. which i believe there is a clear difference in the rules its just in the psychic power phase they the term psyker and psyker unit interchangeably and they state they are going to as well

**Hollismason**

As others have stated , Editor at Gameworkshop is a Ceremonial Title.

**easysauce**

Hollismason wrote:
As others have stated , Editor at Gameworkshop is a Ceremonial Title.

thats fine, feel free to discuss what you think the rules should be written as,

in the mean time, YMDC is meant for the rules as they are written.

GW has made it abundantly clear, and encouraged you, to make 40k your own way, and you are allowed to change the rules to make whatever house rules you see fit to do so.

in the mean time, please make your RAI, or "i think the rules should be written differently" discusions as RAI discussions, dont claim them as valid RAW in YMDC, it just clutters it up for people who want to play the game as GW wrote it.

**Murrdox**

A unit usually consists of several models that have banded
together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine or a
rampaging monster, is also considered to be a unit in its own right.

For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the
Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.

To manifest a psychic power, you will first need to select one of your Psyker units. It
does not matter if the selected unit is Falling Back or has Gone to Ground. Then, select a
psychic power known to the selected unit that the unit has not already attempted
to manifest in this Psychic phase.

You will find no such rule stating that a "unit with a Pskyer model in it counts as a Psychic Unit" as you said above... because there is no such thing.

So your rule interpretation is that RAW, you can never cast a Psychic power with any character or independent character joined to a unit that are not also all Psykers. Congratulations, you broke the psychic phase. If you can't "Select one of your Psyker units" then you can't cast any powers with that unit.

Your interpretation of the RAW is just wrong on its face. Which interpretation do you think is correct? The one that makes all Psykers mostly useless or the one that actually lets them cast powers as the book describes?

**Elric Greywolf**

This is the one that I'd like answered, according to RAW:

If two Farseers are joined to each other, how many WC does that unit generate? [note that each Farseer has the same rule, Psyker (Mastery Level 3), and special rules cannot stack]

**insaniak**

Murrdox wrote:
You will find no such rule stating that a "unit with a Pskyer model in it counts as a Psychic Unit" as you said above... because there is no such thing.

That's correct. As was discussed earlier in the thread, the rules simply don't cover units of non-psykers that have a psyker in them, only units with the 'Psyker' rule.

So your rule interpretation is that RAW, you can never cast a Psychic power with any character or independent character joined to a unit that are not also all Psykers. Congratulations, you broke the psychic phase. If you can't "Select one of your Psyker units" then you can't cast any powers with that unit.

Correct., Again, this was all covered earlier in the thread.

Your interpretation of the RAW is just wrong on its face. Which interpretation do you think is correct? The one that makes all Psykers mostly useless or the one that actually lets them cast powers as the book describes?

The 'correct' interpretation is the one that follows the rules as written, because that's what the written rules are for.

The problem is simply that those rules, as they currently stand, are incomplete. We have no way of knowing how GW expect psykers to function in the various situations not covered by the current rules.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Elric Greywolf wrote:
This is the one that I'd like answered, according to RAW:

If two Farseers are joined to each other, how many WC does that unit generate? [note that each Farseer has the same rule, Psyker (Mastery Level 3), and special rules cannot stack]

And the answer is: nobody knows.

They would appear to count as a single, mastery 3 unit for the purposes of the psychic phase... But that leads to all sorts of issues.

**easysauce**

an IC with the psyker rule, has the psyker rule.

that IC joins a unit,

that unit now contains at least one model with the psyker rule,
its therefore a psyker unit.

its not broken at all when read in correct order.

you still know that the psyker gets the perils as BOP's isnt in play, and your unit is still a psyker unit, because part of that unit is a psyker with that special rule.

the main thing that RAW is unlcear about is if two psychic IC's are in a unit, and suffer perils, which psyker is hit by it?

**Murrdox**

If you guys want to debate that, fine I guess, but it seems like a useless waste of energy.

For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the
Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.

This rule basically tells you how it's meant to be treated. You're getting bent out of shape on the RAW because it doesn't say THIS instead:

For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any model with the
Psyker or Psychic Pilot special rule, [color=red]or a unit /color]with the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.

Personally, I don't think the distinction is necessary. A character or an Independent Character can be a "unit".

While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules
purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

An Independent Character doesn't STOP being a unit just because he's joined to a unit. You're just getting too bent out of shape because there isn't a completely different set of rules specifying how a Psyker "Unit" acts and a Pskyer "Model" acts. Sometimes you have to treat a Character or Independent Character as a "model as part of a unit" and sometimes you have to treat it as a "unit of one model". In this context, referring to the Pskyer as a "unit", even when it's joined to another unit isn't really a big jump in logic.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

easysauce wrote:
an IC with the psyker rule, has the psyker rule.

that IC joins a unit,

that unit now contains at least one model with the psyker rule,

its therefore a psyker unit.

Demonstrably false.

A model with this special rule is a Psyker. This rule is typically presented with a Mastery
Level, shown in brackets – if no Mastery Level is shown then that model has a Mastery Level
of 1. Rules for generating and manifesting psychic powers can be found in the Psychic phase
section.

There is nothing written there about a Unit being treated as a "Psychic Unit" because it has a Psycher present in it. The rule refers only to the individual model.

**erick99**

Murrdox wrote:
An Independent Character doesn't STOP being a unit just because he's joined to a unit. You're just getting too bent out of shape because there isn't a completely different set of rules specifying how a Psyker "Unit" acts and a Pskyer "Model" acts. Sometimes you have to treat a Character or Independent Character as a "model as part of a unit" and sometimes you have to treat it as a "unit of one model". In this context, referring to the Pskyer as a "unit", even when it's joined to another unit isn't really a big jump in logic.

Except that they do when they become part of the unit for all rules purposes.

**emmagine**

They are using the terms psyker and psyker unit interchangeably.

Here is proof.

if you read under the bullet point :"Manifesting Psychic Powers Sequence", step 3 says "... If two or more 6s are rolled, the Psyker suffers Perils of the Warp, which is resolved immediately."

Under "manifesting a psychic power" we find this at the end of the section: "If, when making a Psychic test, two or more dice rolls (before applying modifiers) were rolls of a 6, the unit attempting to manifest the psychic power suffers Perils of the Warp..."

So do both the unit, and the psyker take a perils? Or are these terms being used interchangeably?

There are more examples, but I won't go there unless needed.

What does all this mean? It means its poorly written. But you can't go back and forth on weather you intend these words to be specific, or general.

There is no definitive answer to this issue, because of the terrible wording of the rules, so we are left trying to discern what they Intended.

I'm rather confident they intended each mastery level of individual psykers to be added up for warp charges. (with the exception of brotherhoods of psykers). I hear the argument that it says "total the mastery levels of your psychic units" but I doubt they intended to make it so in order to get warp charges from your warlocks you have to split them off to guardian squads. The one thing they are consistent with throughout the rules, ls using the term "psyker unit" to refer to weather or not you can use a psy power again for the same unit. I would not be at all surprised that this is intentional, and an intended nerf to seer councils and the like... and intending to encourage you to add a little demonology to your warlocks.

All that said, this is probably the worst unfaq'd gw rule I've ever seen, and I've been playing since second.

**insaniak**

Murrdox wrote:
A character or an Independent Character can be a "unit".

They certainly can. The problem is that they're not always a unit.

An Independent Character doesn't STOP being a unit just because he's joined to a unit.

If that were true, you would still be able to shoot at them.

However, Independant Characters aren't the only issue here. Units of Warlocks have the exact same problem.

You're just getting too bent out of shape because there isn't a completely different set of rules specifying how a Psyker "Unit" acts and a Pskyer "Model" acts.

No, we're 'getting bent out of shape' because the rules simply don't cover what happens when a unit only contains some models with the Psyker rule, or where a unit is comprised entirely of Psykers who don't have the Brotherhood rule.

Sometimes you have to treat a Character or Independent Character as a "model as part of a unit" and sometimes you have to treat it as a "unit of one model".

Except there is abolutely no rules basis for doing this.

In this context, referring to the Pskyer as a "unit", even when it's joined to another unit isn't really a big jump in logic.

Sure. Just as soon as the rules say thay this is how it works, that is how it will work.

Right now, they don't.

**chanceafs**

Honestly I think the word 'unit' was the poor choice in this edition. It seems to me that the RAI was that each psyker, is a 'psyker unit' unto itself, regardless of whether it is part of a 'unit' in the more generic sense of 40K.

I.E. A 10-man squad of warlocks is a single 'unit'. But that 'unit' consists of 10 'psyker units'. Where as a GK squad with the Brotherhood of Psykers rule, is collectively 1 'psyker unit' that has a single mastery level... etc

Unfortunately since the genius GW writers decided to use the same word to apply to both concepts, the RAW makes it very hard to determine if this was the intended use.

The only way the psyker rules make any sense is if you treat all instances of the word 'unit' in the psychic chapter as 'psyker unit' and something completely different then what is meant by 'unit' in the rest of the BRB.

**katana100**

Really not that hard I do agree above the tern psyker unit is a bit meh but we have definitons as I have stated.

Firstyl they tells us they when in psychich phase section that will will use the term psyker and psychic unit to stand stand for three different thing (psyker, Brotherhood and psychich vehicles).

Then when we look at Brotherhood it tells us a model woth this special rule confers it to a squad. When you have thr rule psykee it does not confer same as psychich pilot meaning we can have psyker unit and units with psykers in jot hard at all.

So when ever in the psychic phase it says psyker unit, it also means psyker and psychic vehicle you are told to replace the word as needed depending on which one it is