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WayneTheGame wrote:
The idea of "pick-up games" seems to be almost entirely a US thing. I think that in Europe and Australia it's more common to have a "gaming club" that meets where you know everyone, so it's easier to introduce people with "Hey guys this is my buddy Jim from work, he's interested in the game" versus "Jim shows up at the game shop on miniatures night and hopes that the natives are friendly". It's also the idea that gaming clubs tend to be smaller and more close-knit so if you find one it's a lot more inviting to show up at the club and introduce yourself than walking into a game store filled with strangers and trying to figure out who's playing what and who can help you out if you're new.

As an aside I think that's part of the vast disconnect with 40k since 40k seems to be written for gaming clubs, not game stores.

You have it backwards. The idea of gaming predominantly happening in clubs is an almost exclusive UK (or maybe Commonwealth), phenomenon. In all the other European countries that I know of, gaming clubs do exist but they are a definite minority and pick up games at the FLGS is the predominant method of playing miniature games.

It's also worth noting that clubs vary in size a lot. There's one near me with about 8 attendees and generally 1 or 2 big games going on, and there's another one with about 40 attending each evening (~120 members) and 15-20 games going on. So in the former it's always pre-arranged, and in the latter whilst it's usually pre-arranged, there's still the possibility of getting a pick-up game.

There can never be enough wargames.

We should be happy to have so many fun and unique options these days that never would have been possible 10 or 20 years ago (before Kickstarter and indie games becoming big).

There certainly will be an element of fragmentation, but that beats stagnation.

 LuciusAR wrote:
Historical gamers where then a highly elitist bunch who started wargaming before GW existed and considered Fantasy gaming to the preserve of spotty teenagers and thus beneath them.

Nah we still think that... we just added FoW gamers to the list.


Funny, I joined a club of those 'elitist' gamers in 1988 with my Citadel stuff and they were the nicest and most welcoming group I have ever encountered. Opened my eyes to a world of possibilities. And those old gents playing Seven Years War also played Warhammer when I ran it for them...

Possibly, your comment is a little stereotypical and based on perceived myth rather than reality. Just a thought.

There is too many wargames like there is too many kind of cake.

Who want to live in a world where there is so many cakes; people all eat different kind, and are happy, and there is plenty of cake to try.

I find myself typically agreeing with any cake-themed arguments.

Hmm.

Freedom of choice, is what you've got.
Freedom FROM choice, is what you want?

Choice of games is a good thing. If everyone played the same game, with the same netlists, then it would be a very boring hobby.

I actually am beginning to wonder if there aren't too many 28mm SF skirmish games being launched via Kickstarter.

 Eilif wrote:

 Vertrucio wrote:

Sorry UK, Australia, and Europe guys, gaming clubs aren't some new thing in the US either. It's just that there is also the concept of the store on top of gaming clubs existing.

True, though there do appear to be definite differences, As folks have pointed out, it seems that most of these "clubs" in the USA meet in private homes, and don't have the documentation (charter, officers, minutes, etc) that many of the "foreign" clubs do.

I can't speak to areas outside of my hometown, but here in Chicago, I can think of at least 6 wargaming gaming clubs within 15 miles that meet on a regular basis (ranging from weekly to monthly), but I think that all of them meet in member(s) homes and I don't think that any of them have any kind of official documentation.

Wait, you're telling me the overseas clubs have charters and minutes? "Our club will henceforth be named Goblin Toboggans. Today's mission is to wipe the Tyranids off the planet! An account of minutes: Tobias is running ten minutes late, because his wife made him wipe the baby's fanny. A victory for Tyranids because he was late." Pardon me while I laugh in the corner so hard that I pass out.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I actually am beginning to wonder if there aren't too many 28mm SF skirmish games being launched via Kickstarter.

Interesting observation. I mean, having more choices is fine. But there does come a time where there's too many and they all kind of gel together. I mean does the world really need another generic "Not-40k" SF game? Or another futuristic or fantasy skirmish game? All that's doing IMO is fracturing the community even further.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I actually am beginning to wonder if there aren't too many 28mm SF skirmish games being launched via Kickstarter.

Interesting observation. I mean, having more choices is fine. But there does come a time where there's too many and they all kind of gel together. I mean does the world really need another generic "Not-40k" SF game? Or another futuristic or fantasy skirmish game? All that's doing IMO is fracturing the community even further.

That depends on whether the community is based on "War Gaming" or on one particular "War Game". I don't think there needs to be a central game that the "community" is based on. We can play lots of games, and enjoy each other's games. Most boardgamers don't feel the need to focus all their energy on one single game, why should we?

It's only when a segment of the "community" decides that it's going to invest all it's time and energy in one of the more expensive and exclusive options, that too many games becomes a concern, because these Mono-gamers are the ones who suffer when folks branch out and try other , less-time-and-money-intesive games.

 Eilif wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I actually am beginning to wonder if there aren't too many 28mm SF skirmish games being launched via Kickstarter.

Interesting observation. I mean, having more choices is fine. But there does come a time where there's too many and they all kind of gel together. I mean does the world really need another generic "Not-40k" SF game? Or another futuristic or fantasy skirmish game? All that's doing IMO is fracturing the community even further.

That depends on whether the community is based on "War Gaming" or on one particular "War Game". I don't think there needs to be a central game that the "community" is based on. We can play lots of games, and enjoy each other's games. Most boardgamers don't feel the need to focus all their energy on one single game, why should we?

It's only when a segment of the "community" decides that it's going to invest all it's time and energy in one of the more expensive and exclusive options, that too many games becomes a concern, because these Mono-gamers are the ones who suffer when folks branch out and try other , less-time-and-money-intesive games.

I definitely hear you on that last part, my meta is just like that :( Nothing but 40k, nothing else is known or cared about.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I actually am beginning to wonder if there aren't too many 28mm SF skirmish games being launched via Kickstarter.

Interesting observation. I mean, having more choices is fine. But there does come a time where there's too many and they all kind of gel together. I mean does the world really need another generic "Not-40k" SF game? Or another futuristic or fantasy skirmish game? All that's doing IMO is fracturing the community even further.

That depends on whether the community is based on "War Gaming" or on one particular "War Game". I don't think there needs to be a central game that the "community" is based on. We can play lots of games, and enjoy each other's games. Most boardgamers don't feel the need to focus all their energy on one single game, why should we?

It's only when a segment of the "community" decides that it's going to invest all it's time and energy in one of the more expensive and exclusive options, that too many games becomes a concern, because these Mono-gamers are the ones who suffer when folks branch out and try other , less-time-and-money-intesive games.

I definitely hear you on that last part, my meta is just like that :( Nothing but 40k, nothing else is known or cared about.

I have a similar issue. 40k is by and far the largest game with many others coming in a distant 2nd. Their are plenty of whfb, fow, warmachine/hordes, ect players out there. The issue for these games and gamers is finding players for them can be tough simply because the size and ease of getting 40k games causes most people to shelve games they may enjoy more because its difficult to find games even if their are plenty of players. The only time people pull these out are for events and even then they get little to no support because the community was, as a whole, looking for 40k. Also getting into minatures games is not cheap. Starting up an army for someone like myself is taking a big plunge to drop $200 for everything ill need. Rules, minatures, ect. Then because 40k over shadows all games like wild west exodus(which i just got into, awesome game) are struggling to survive on any other night besides that specific game night like every other non 40k game. Other games have very little chance in my area. You will see an influx of players for a game then the dust will settle and you will hardly see people gaming it in the shops. I am glad i waited on games like infinity. there was about 25-30 people who jumped on that game about 2 years ago and now i havent seen a game of infinity in almost 12months.

The problem I have and many of us "budget" gamers is we already have a good collection of minatures for things like 40k and whfb and we build our collections over time rather then being able to spend 200-300 on a new game to get a bunch of stuff in hopes it will get our money's worth. For me if i want to roll dice i have to plan my schedule to get out to do so and then if i want to game something other then 40k it better be at a time when its that specific "game night" or i wont be playing it.

Thay may have made no sense at all so the big fact is that 40k is a giant monster that over shadows all and makes it hard for anything else to grab a hold and stay around

I find the secret to getting folk to play other games is to keep two factions. They don't have to be large. Just enough to let peeps play against you. Often there's enough in a starter box for a balanced game when you step outside the GW paradigm. Dust tactics and warmachine/hordes both do great starter sets, with enough to get two core factions up and running for very little outlay. Get them all painted up nice, and people will want to play with them (and with you). I've done this with dust, warmachine, infinity and X wing, and I don't struggle to get opponents. I'm toying with starting up malifaux too, once I have my painting backlog caught up.

As someone developing a (possibly) 28mm scifi miniatures game, I have also seen the rise of scifi games in that scale.

I'm not particularly worried, other than the usual competition. I'm less worried as a player of these games, since if a game is good, and demos well, it will find its audience. The poorer games will fall by the wayside.

As Eggs says above, to get a new game played in your gaming group, definitely get 2 factions worth early, and learn the rules as best you can to the point where you can teach it. Having painted starters is also a plus. And, when teaching the game, don't try to explain all the rules at once, just simply start playing and introducing concepts as they come up.

Now's a good time to have a new game at hand as GW, yet again, is driving players away. Not necessarily into the arms of other games, but at least people are having the GW veil pulled away from their eyes.

A lot of these new games are focusing on skirmish, drastically reducing the cost to get into it.

People in general will generally seem hesitant, or outright against trying a new game, that is until you put the new game on the table in front of them and play it.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I actually am beginning to wonder if there aren't too many 28mm SF skirmish games being launched via Kickstarter.

Lots of games launching via kickstarter don't necessarily create a problem of community dilution since the majority so far simply have not gained much 'mainstream' traction. They have their kickstarter, the people who went in have fun with all the hype, get their models and then they disappear, maybe having a box on the shelf at some FLGS's. Mostly they stay contained to the individual kickstarters gamers groups.

WayneTheGame wrote:

I definitely hear you on that last part, my meta is just like that :( Nothing but 40k, nothing else is known or cared about.

Expand your meta. The greater Tampa area has 4 million people and I found a variety of game clubs and events in your general area with a google search. Your "meta" is more than just the few guys you know from one store. Take a look around you. Go to conventions and meet people. Get out of the GW bubble instead of blaming it.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I actually am beginning to wonder if there aren't too many 28mm SF skirmish games being launched via Kickstarter.

As long as they make their funding, the market is not saturated yet, but it all depends how it goes when they hit retail, if they can keep the buzz going.

As to too many wargames? I blame the internet! Choice is good!

As someone developing a (possibly) 28mm scifi miniatures game, I have also seen the rise of scifi games in that scale.

I have a word of caution to anyone making games, coming from someone who has worked in the video game industry. Avoid trying to follow on to the big guys (GW) too much and thinking you'll strike it big because of it. You saw this problem for the past decade in the MMO and FPS shooter market. So many games would try to emulate the dominant games of World of Warcraft, or Call of Duty, thinking they'll take players away or grab players looking to branch out.

The problem is that dominant games are just that, dominant. Their player bases aren't looking for more of the same, especially when they already have the original. The only way to succeed in those markets is to put in more time, money, and quality than the dominant game does, and that's a lot to ask for just a slim chance of success. Mantic is about the only ones who have kind of eked out success in this area, but already they've been trying to branch out farther.

When I see a lot of the recent kickstarters being more space fantasy games, and quite a few of them going with the same giant shoulder pad powered armor look, I have to wonder if they couldn't do better by trying to branch out from that more. After all, more diversity is better for us gamers.

Right now, though there is an opportunity due to the way GW seems to be actively pushing its player base away.

Otherwise, I'm not particularly worried about the industry or hobby, other than the usual competition (which has me plenty worried). I'm less worried as a player of these games, since if a game is good, and demos well, it will find its audience. The poorer games will fall by the wayside.

As Eggs says above, to get a new game played in your gaming group, definitely get 2 factions worth early, and learn the rules as best you can to the point where you can teach it. Having painted starters is also a plus. And, when teaching the game, don't try to explain all the rules at once, just simply start playing and introducing concepts as they come up.

Second is to make sure that you get a presence at conventions, places where the gaming media shows up and you can get video and pictures of your models to as many eyes as possible.

 Vertrucio wrote:
The problem is that dominant games are just that, dominant. Their player bases aren't looking for more of the same, especially when they already have the original. The only way to succeed in those markets is to put in more time, money, and quality than the dominant game does, and that's a lot to ask for just a slim chance of success.

Great point. If you take a look at the most successful new games and game producers in miniature wargaming, they are substantially different from GW.

• Infinity goes with a very low model count and a comparitively high amount of complexity per model on the table.
• Dystopian Wars doesn't even represent individual soldiers and instead largely represents boats, flying vehicles and tanks and fun mash ups of those ideas.
• Mantic's largest successes have been in areas GW has largely abandoned, like a sports miniature game and a board game like skirmish game.
• Privateer went after gamers who like solid rule sets that rely on synergy building and threat assessment/denial.
• Reaper chose to go after RPG players and general figure painters who like traditional fantasy (though they are expanding into other genres)
• Flames of War jumped into the space the old epic games were in with a historical game and represents much larger formations of soldiers with their multi based approach than 40k does with it's single based models.
• Bolt Action is also an attempt to bring historicals to a wider audience in that it largely offers a 40k-like experience, but with a model count and a greater degree of interactivity a lot like what GW offered in 40k during their period of greatest growth.
• And many historical games in general offer something GW also abandoned. GW used to be the largest publisher of historical rules with their Warhammer Historical brand (though they never dominated that market to the degree they have in sci-fi/fantasy). Now if you want a game that is representational of history (like a medieval war movie or show is of medieval war) you have to go elsewhere.

Right now, though there is an opportunity due to the way GW seems to be actively pushing its player base away.

I think the best way for someone to do 28mm giant shoulder pad sci-fi guys would be to do it inside the context of a as yet unexplored niche that would allow the line to succeed without being a GW marine substitute.

The other way to do it is to make after market marine parts until you have entire marines worth of parts available and organically grow your customer base to the point where people are buying entire units from you and then you can offer them the idea of getting rules from you as well.

.

Not to be to harsh. But I do hear the often refrain of.

"Glad I didn't buy that game, it's nowhere now"
or
"No one seems to be playing that around here anymore"

These are really passive statements. If you want to play games other than the perrenial favorites at your FLGS (which is some places might only be 40k and warmanchine), then you've got to put in extra effort.

Painting up a couple of starters is just the beginning. You have to take the initiative to gather like-minded gamers around you, get to know them well and game regularly. You have to take steps (Social Media, flyers at the FLGS, etc) to grow your group, and this has to be done consistently.

Put simply playing "other" games is more work, but I think it's worth the effort.

Also, as to the amount of $ expended, it doesn't have to be a big thing at first. Running a couple of scenarios of Song of Blades and Heroes (an 8 buck ruleset) using WHFB figures you already have could be enough to show your gaming buddies some of the possibilities that exist outside the bubble, even if it doesn't become your go-to game.

 Eilif wrote:
Also, as to the amount of $ expended, it doesn't have to be a big thing at first. Running a couple of scenarios of Song of Blades and Heroes (an 8 buck ruleset) using WHFB figures you already have could be enough to show your gaming buddies some of the possibilities that exist outside the bubble, even if it doesn't become your go-to game.

This also has the added benefit of not asking them to replace their collection or start a new incompatible collection. I found this to be an easy sell for 40k players. Especially those that don't quite play as often as they'd like. I have one friend who has a huge necron collection but doesn't really get that many games of 40k in. So I told him to bring 10 or so warriors and whatever other thing he finds really interesting. We talked about what the spidery thing he brought is supposed to be and do, statted everything up in FUBAR and had a fun game (I was using my old Warzone plastics).

Another friend of mine has Infinity stats for most things in 40k that are appropriate to Infinity (basic troopers and some slightly larger things). He basically took existing stats and just renamed them (so instead of PanO Orc Trooper w/ HMG, it's a Space Marine w/ Heavy Bolter). He can get people playing with their 40k stuff much more easily than selling them on the idea of abandoning their existing miniatures collection for a new one.

 frozenwastes wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

I definitely hear you on that last part, my meta is just like that :( Nothing but 40k, nothing else is known or cared about.

Expand your meta. The greater Tampa area has 4 million people and I found a variety of game clubs and events in your general area with a google search. Your "meta" is more than just the few guys you know from one store. Take a look around you. Go to conventions and meet people. Get out of the GW bubble instead of blaming it.

I've checked that (including your link elsewhere ), the thing is that I'm on the western side and most of the events are on the eastern side, so I don't particularly feel like driving an hour to the other side of the area, and then it annoys me that I have two stores within 30 minutes and one is all 40k and the other has very little interest in anything. Same with WM/H the main store where WM/H gaming goes on is an hour away and not a reasonable drive to make.

In any event this is offtopic

I guess it's all relative. I commute 90 minutes to get the monthly club meeting. I consider it worth it. I live in an area with a population density equal to Siberia.

 frozenwastes wrote:
I guess it's all relative. I commute 90 minutes to get the monthly club meeting. I consider it worth it. I live in an area with a population density equal to Siberia.

So, like, 2/3rds of Canada? And here I thought frozenwastes was a just a forum handle

But can there be too many wargames? Possibly at some point, but as long as people keep coming up with new systems in new scales with new mechanics, I don't really see an end in sight. Perhaps there will be a dotcom-esque gaming bubble?

 gunslingerpro wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
I guess it's all relative. I commute 90 minutes to get the monthly club meeting. I consider it worth it. I live in an area with a population density equal to Siberia.

So, like, 2/3rds of Canada? And here I thought frozenwastes was a just a forum handle

His avatar photo is actually a pic of him after waiting for a Tyranid gaunt swarm player to finish moving their side.

 Pacific wrote:

 gunslingerpro wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
I guess it's all relative. I commute 90 minutes to get the monthly club meeting. I consider it worth it. I live in an area with a population density equal to Siberia.

So, like, 2/3rds of Canada? And here I thought frozenwastes was a just a forum handle

His avatar photo is actually a pic of him after waiting for a Tyranid gaunt swarm player to finish moving their side.

I never know how much people pay attention to things I've said in the past, but I remember talking once about my very last game of 40k. I was the nid player. It was a small game and I had about 75 models on the table, the vast majority of them termigants. I moved, fleeted and assaulted with the majority of my models. Over 200 model movements while my opponent just stood there and did nothing.

I understand some people house rule things like that into a single action, but it was at a tournament/league thingy. I'm not familiar enough with how 7th edition handles the situation to know if they fixed the issue, but it's just not something I'm willing to do to my opponent ever again. I ebayed all my nids and my rules (including the 100 or so as yet unassembled termigants, hormagaunts and genestealers) and kept only about 10 termigants and 10 genestealers for skirmish gaming with other rules.

And it's only winter here like 5 months of the year. Lots of painting time Oh, and fun triva: Negative 40 degrees is the point where the Celsius and Fahrenheit temperature systems actually match.

EDIT: I also realized that the second gaming club I can occasionally make it to (it's technically in the next province over) is a board game club. Lots of people who like board games will like board game like games with pretty miniatures. So anyone looking to break out of a given game system dominating the area, find the board game clubs near you or start one. I know one that runs at a "local" (an hour away) Legion Hall (a veterans service organization) has people who bring out miniatures every couple months. Usually Battletech or Command & Colours: Ancients with miniatures instead of little wood blocks. It's a start.

.