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St 10 ap1 3d6 long line auto hitting the amount of models under the line.
Now that flamers and blasts are out and snap shots are the only way to hit an invis unit otherwise (if the opponent gets the power off), are rare auto hitting non-template units the way forward?
With the positioning power of flyers you can circumvent tanking characters. Would be pants if the unit itself has a good invuln though.
What do you think?

Snap Shooting prohibits being targetted by weapons which do not roll to hit, such as a doom sycthe.

95% sure.

No dice, sadly.

Ah begger!

Razerous wrote:
Snap Shooting prohibits being targetted by weapons which do not roll to hit, such as a doom sycthe.

95% sure.

No dice, sadly.

If they target a different squad and just happen to hit them incidentally(wink wink), it can still hit them.

Same with Templates that are positioned to hit as many members of a targeted unit and also cover the invisible one or blasts scattering onto them.

This same topic came up yesterday. The rule says you may not target an invisible unit with templates or blast markers. It does not say it cannot be hit by them.

Rule book Pg 33 ''... any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cant be 'fired' as a Snap Shot''

Death ray rules Pg 50 ''Every unit (friendly or enemy) suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit underneath the line.''

Invisibility rules ''... enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit...

I think it kind of depends how people interpret these rules, but in my point of view it goes like this:

Death Ray doesn't _target_ to any units when firing which is what invisibility needs to force fire SS (''... at the target unit ...'').
DR rules don't say at any point it has to be targeted anywhere (''Draw a straight line between these two points. Every unit...'') , which is mentioned in rules for firing any other weaponry.

I think that is what makes the difference. It is not targeted anywhere or into specific unit.
But in any case, GW really needs to faq this...

Death Ray can hit units locked in melee I think it can hit Invso units.

Fellstrom wrote:
I think that is what makes the difference. It is not targeted anywhere or into specific unit.
But in any case, GW really needs to faq this...

No they don't. The rule is quite plain. You nominate points on the battlefield to create a line. Any unit unlucky enough to fall under that line gets hit(s). The Death Ray does not target units at all.


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Poly Ranger wrote:
St 10 ap1 3d6 long line auto hitting the amount of models under the line.
Now that flamers and blasts are out and snap shots are the only way to hit an invis unit otherwise (if the opponent gets the power off), are rare auto hitting non-template units the way forward?
With the positioning power of flyers you can circumvent tanking characters. Would be pants if the unit itself has a good invuln though.
What do you think?

Yup...legit use of the Death Ray, the way I read the rules.

this is a cool finding! Doom scythe it is!

 jasper76 wrote:

Fellstrom wrote:
I think that is what makes the difference. It is not targeted anywhere or into specific unit.
But in any case, GW really needs to faq this...

No they don't. The rule is quite plain. You nominate points on the battlefield to create a line. Any unit unlucky enough to fall under that line gets hit(s). The Death Ray does not target units at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:
St 10 ap1 3d6 long line auto hitting the amount of models under the line.
Now that flamers and blasts are out and snap shots are the only way to hit an invis unit otherwise (if the opponent gets the power off), are rare auto hitting non-template units the way forward?
With the positioning power of flyers you can circumvent tanking characters. Would be pants if the unit itself has a good invuln though.
What do you think?

Yup...legit use of the Death Ray, the way I read the rules.

Excellent! I thought after the first response it wouldn't be possible, but you are correct in saying it doesn't target units at all but just instead hits everything under the line, so it should work after all :-)!

I don't have the rulebook with me at the moment, but isn't Overwatch considered a snap shot? You are able to use templates for overwatch, just not the blast markers. Unless that "Wall of Death" is a special rule just for that scenario.

jasper76 wrote:

Fellstrom wrote:
I think that is what makes the difference. It is not targeted anywhere or into specific unit.
But in any case, GW really needs to faq this...

No they don't. The rule is quite plain. You nominate points on the battlefield to create a line. Any unit unlucky enough to fall under that line gets hit(s). The Death Ray does not target units at all..

There is always that one dude that doesn't seem to understand a And while it is the only weapon that can do so, it will crate different opinions. That's why Otherwise its clear for me.

merse24 wrote:I don't have the rulebook with me at the moment, but isn't Overwatch considered a snap shot? You are able to use templates for overwatch, just not the blast markers. Unless that "Wall of Death" is a special rule just for that scenario.

True, wall of death is special rule that effects to overwatch. But what is your point?

Fellstrom wrote:
There is always that one dude that doesn't seem to understand a And while it is the only weapon that can do so, it will crate different opinions. That's why Otherwise its clear for me.

Gotcha...and I know a couple guys like that

What about the warp storm table? There is no BS, it can be template or blast. Would you just not roll for the warp storm?

 gwarsh41 wrote:
What about the warp storm table? There is no BS, it can be template or blast. Would you just not roll for the warp storm?

Counting on the warp storm table for anything is a fool's gambit.

The point was that if you can use a template to fire snap shots in overwatch, what prevents you from using the Death Ray as a snap shot? Unless, GW is considering the Wall of Death a special scenario that ignores that rule (which it sounds like it is).

Guys, leave your Doomscythes at home. Get a battery of Sentry Pylons with Focused Deathrays instead. 3 per HS slot. And Deepstrike!

merse24 wrote:
The point was that if you can use a template to fire snap shots in overwatch, what prevents you from using the Death Ray as a snap shot? Unless, GW is considering the Wall of Death a special scenario that ignores that rule (which it sounds like it is).

Its not a snap shot anyway. Or a template. Its simply a 3d6 line drawn across the table that doesn't target units but just so happens to hit them if they are under the line.

merse24 wrote:
The point was that if you can use a template to fire snap shots in overwatch, what prevents you from using the Death Ray as a snap shot? Unless, GW is considering the Wall of Death a special scenario that ignores that rule (which it sounds like it is).

“In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot.”


this pretty much prevents the death ray to be used as snapshot.

It is not a snap shot as discussed above.

 ashikenshin wrote:

merse24 wrote:
The point was that if you can use a template to fire snap shots in overwatch, what prevents you from using the Death Ray as a snap shot? Unless, GW is considering the Wall of Death a special scenario that ignores that rule (which it sounds like it is).

“In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot.”


this pretty much prevents the death ray to be used as snapshot.

You're right...it can't be used as a snapshot. But firing the Death Ray does not target any unit at all, so it doesn't require snapshots to hit Invisible units.

 jasper76 wrote:

 ashikenshin wrote:

merse24 wrote:
The point was that if you can use a template to fire snap shots in overwatch, what prevents you from using the Death Ray as a snap shot? Unless, GW is considering the Wall of Death a special scenario that ignores that rule (which it sounds like it is).

“In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot.”


this pretty much prevents the death ray to be used as snapshot.

You're right...it can't be used as a snapshot. But firing the Death Ray does not target any unit at all, so it doesn't require snapshots to hit Invisible units.

oh yeah, I totally agree with that part. I added a doom scythe to my list for the weekend games just in case someone brings an invisible unit

Haha yes! Hopefully invis stars wont multiply like rabbits when they come across this hard counter!

Same with Dark Eldar Reaver Bladevanes attacks...

"When moving with turbo boosters, a Reaver unit may slash its foes with its bladevanes. Mark the start and end points of the unit's move and trace an imaginary line between the two points. Once the move is complete, the unit inflicts D3, S4 AP- hits per Reaver on one unengaged, non-vehicle unit that lies under the line, resolved immediately."

Doesn't roll to hit, it auto hits and it isn't a shooting attack, its a special rule so completely ignores Invisibility.

This I suppose would also affect vehicle upgrade Chain-Snares and the Tantalus's Scythevanes.

True dat

Im trying to work on a 3x - 9x Reaver list at the moment anyway so this pleases me greatly

Fellstrom wrote:
And while it is the only weapon that can do so, it will crate different opinions.

Torrent weapons can also do it, as long as there's another unit within range that doesn't force snap shots. You aren't required to place the template over any models in the target unit, so your Hellhound is free to put a multimelta shot into something and drop the template over the invisible unit. The downside is that most death stars don't really care about the few weapons with torrent, so you're probably not accomplishing much.

Interesting debate. I have a counter point that may, or may not be valid here.

BRB, pg 198, Invisibility.
"Invisibility is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 24". Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire snap shots at the target unit and in close combat will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of 6". Emphasis, mine.

In the underlined portion, the word "target" is referring to the target of the Psyker casting the power. To me this reads, "...enemy units may only fire snap shots at the unit targeted by Invisibility." If you read it this way, there is actually nothing requiring the firing unit to "target" the invisible unit in order to be bound to snapshots. It is just required that they are shooting at it. Lets use a scattering blast as an example. I target a unit of Tactical Marines and fire a missile launcher. The shot scatters onto a nearby invisible Rhino. Did I ever target the Rhino? Certainly not. Did I end up shooting at the Rhino? I would argue yes. This is because once the marker scatters on top of the Rhino, we must use the rules for shooting in order to continue resolving the shot. As the Rhino is the unit being effected, and we are resolving the attack using the rules for shooting, It seems we are indeed shooting at the Rhino, even without ever targeting it. I feel it would work exactly the same way with the Doom Scythe. Is this a valid argument? Either way, it really does need a FAQ.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Lets use a scattering blast as an example. I target a unit of Tactical Marines and fire a missile launcher. The shot scatters onto a nearby invisible Rhino. Did I ever target the Rhino? Certainly not. Did I end up shooting at the Rhino? I would argue yes.

The relevant issue here is "targeting". With your Missile Launcher, you targeted a unit, then missed and hit another unit. With the Death Ray, you do not target a unit at all. You literally nominate one point, nominate another point, roll 3d6, and whatever falls under the line, friend or foe, gets hit (rules never ask you to target a unit, with either the originating point, or the end point).

In other words, it hits just like a scattered blast that would happen to land on an Invisible unit.

Perhaps I am not understanding your argument.


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 extremefreak17 wrote:
I target a unit of Tactical Marines and fire a missile launcher. The shot scatters onto a nearby invisible Rhino. Did I ever target the Rhino? Certainly not. Did I end up shooting at the Rhino? I would argue yes. This is because once the marker scatters on top of the Rhino, we must use the rules for shooting in order to continue resolving the shot. As the Rhino is the unit being effected, and we are resolving the attack using the rules for shooting, It seems we are indeed shooting at the Rhino, even without ever targeting it. I feel it would work exactly the same way with the Doom Scythe. Is this a valid argument? Either way, it really does need a FAQ.

By this logic, you wouldn't be able to shoot any kind of blast weapon at any target within scatter range of the Invisible unit.

Sounds legit.
Invisibility is a bit much anyway, tbh.