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Last winter I sent a letter into Phil Kelly detailing some (okay, not "some", it was 20 pages long) things I felt needed to be addressed for Sisters. While I'm working on doing another submission, it won't be for Sisters (I can only beat a dead horse so much) and am approaching this with a more broad scope this time because I feel it might be the best way to tell the dev team what we really want and why as I don't think they know what we're looking for or how our game differs from the way they play. I can't promise results, just that I'm making the attempt anyways.

I'm trying to hit are the rules issues, units people want to see and things people want to see improved or debuffed. Because I don't play everything I'm looking to hear what people have to say, and please give me some evidence to work with as to craft a convincing argument I can't really say things like "it feels underpowered". We don't have to go full mathhammer, but something to back up the problems would be great.

So to start off here's what I've got in mind thus far:

Chaos Marine Cult Terminators (I think they know this one, but it can't hurt to reinforce it)
Chaos Marine Cult Calvary (Berzerkers on Juggernaughts, that sort of thing)
CSM Legion tactics
Shadows in the Warp having an impact on Psykers outside of Perils (it's supposed to make it harder to use psychic powers, not just increase your chance of perils. Possible solutions include: -1 to die rolls for attempting to manifest powers for Psykers in the SitW bubble, or not counting the Mastery Level of any Psyker inside the SitW bubble)
Khorne having some actual psychic defense (he hates sorcery and the like being used for combat, and it should really be reflected on some level, such as Adamantium Will on models with his mark)
Serpent Shield nerf (I'm looking at 24" Range and One Use Only to balance the thing out)
Close combat feeling so futile (I don't really have any solutions for this right now, but I do want to explain the feeling to them at least)

So anyone else have something they want to toss in?

I doubt they'll ever read it, though I really hope they do - with that in mind:

Allies. Can we just have a list that makes sense that isn't borked? - Imperial allies have a massive advantage due to being able to ally to cover all their bases with no issues - for instance, AM can ally for, say honour guard. What can Tau ally for? On the same level? Nope... nothing.

Superheavies and GCs in normal games? Apoc only,
please. Same for D weapons (which are largely part and parcel anyway). Revenant Titans throwing D at my Mechanised IG isn't a fun matchup for me.

Assault needs fixing. If you threw up a poll, how many people are taking Khorne Berserkers over Plague Marines? Or Noise Marines?.

Less random overall - random objectives are a BIG no to most people I've spoken to. There's enough of us on Dakka that can testify to this.

Daemon factory. 'Nuff said.

A Swarmlord who at the least has eternal warrior or something to make him actually badass rather than mindshackle scarab fodder.

If the Tyranids can't roll for BRB powers, they should at least have more than one psychic discipline.

No more 2++ rerollable nonsense, please.

Pointing out that it's very easy to get a 2++ save on be'lakor, and then top it off with invisibility, essentially making him invincible.

Getting it read, and maybe even getting a reply isn't hard. It's getting anything proposed implemented that will be the true challenge.

That said I don't think you're going to see SH/GC go away liquidjoshi.

And something I forgot earlier: Daemonfactory needs to go. Yes it's legal, and it might even be fluffy, but it's not fun to be the person facing down and army that goes from 2k to 4k in a single turn.

Oh, I know it's not likely to go. But, can't hurt to try, right?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Getting it read, and maybe even getting a reply isn't hard. It's getting anything proposed implemented that will be the true challenge.

That said I don't think you're going to see SH/GC go away liquidjoshi.

And something I forgot earlier: Daemonfactory needs to go. Yes it's legal, and it might even be fluffy, but it's not fun to be the person facing down and army that goes from 2k to 4k in a single turn.

Would a recommendation of Pink Horrors not being able to spawn work or perhaps summoned daemons can't summon? (or perhaps both)

Regardless of whether it is good or not, the concept itself is too outrageous.

BA: bring back "fast" for the Rhino chassis vehicles.

2++ re-rollable = no-go //// make it re-rollable on a 4+

Any letter to the GW design team should start with a recommendation to hire a good editor...

 Shandara wrote:
Any letter to the GW design team should start with a recommendation to hire a good editor...

The same could be said about the WD as well...

No blessing combo allowed. No IC combo allowed. No horrible broken combo allowed.

Mail yourself a blank page. The impact will be the same, and you'll receive their exact response far far quicker.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
No blessing combo allowed. No IC combo allowed. No horrible broken combo allowed.

Might wanna reread the Psychic rules for blessings, you already can't stack the same blessing, only different blessings that have similar effects.

Beyond that, could you define those a little more by what you mean? I need to explain things clearly in a letter and I'm not going to guess what you mean by "IC combo" or "horrible broken combo".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 60mm wrote:
Mail yourself a blank page. The impact will be the same, and you'll receive their exact response far far quicker.

Odd, because mailing Phil Kelly got me a written response, and his work email account.

Seriously, getting an actual response isn't hard. Getting them to understand why I'm proposing what I am and accepting the proposed changes as something that should happen on some level is.

I'd spend thirty bucks and mail 'em the Warmachine BRB.

 Triton wrote:
I'd spend thirty bucks and mail 'em the Warmachine BRB.

I'm pretty sure that wouldn't work.

I'll give some generic advice for writing correspondence like this. Don't rant or let emotion creep into the writing, they're unlikely to read it if it sounds like you're yelling at them. Keep it short and to the point, be vicious in editing; keep it to one page, two at the most. Back up everything you say and avoid use of anecdote; they have access to sales figures, statistical analysis software, and other metrics that you don't, so don't say things like "people want" or "many people agree that..." Avoid criticizing things that are matters of opinion, and remember that on some points they may simply have a different opinion.

I'd really suggest holding off for a few months until the dust from seventh has a chance to settle. For one thing, they're going to be busy right now supporting the new edition and might not have time to read your letter, and for another there may be more things down the road that aren't apparent yet that need to go in your letter.

Above all, ask yourself: if I was to receive a letter like this, from a stranger discussing my job, on top of all the other tasks I'm expected to perform in a work day, would I stop to read it?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'm pretty sure that wouldn't work.

Neither will anything else. Their goal is simple: pump out rules that have their dwindling number of customers buying more models.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Serpent Shield nerf (I'm looking at 24" Range and One Use Only to balance the thing out)

Wooaa now, lets not get ahead of ourselves. If this was made, then there would be next to no reason to run serpents. For 145 points, they would be quite bad. I think 24 inch range and not ignores cover would be a better fix.

 60mm wrote:
Mail yourself a blank page. The impact will be the same, and you'll receive their exact response far far quicker.

Odd, because mailing Phil Kelly got me a written response, and his work email account.

Seriously, getting an actual response isn't hard. Getting them to understand why I'm proposing what I am and accepting the proposed changes as something that should happen on some level is.

office_waaagh wrote:
I'll give some generic advice for writing correspondence like this. Don't rant or let emotion creep into the writing, they're unlikely to read it if it sounds like you're yelling at them. Keep it short and to the point, be vicious in editing; keep it to one page, two at the most. Back up everything you say and avoid use of anecdote; they have access to sales figures, statistical analysis software, and other metrics that you don't, so don't say things like "people want" or "many people agree that..." Avoid criticizing things that are matters of opinion, and remember that on some points they may simply have a different opinion.

I'd really suggest holding off for a few months until the dust from seventh has a chance to settle. For one thing, they're going to be busy right now supporting the new edition and might not have time to read your letter, and for another there may be more things down the road that aren't apparent yet that need to go in your letter.

Above all, ask yourself: if I was to receive a letter like this, from a stranger discussing my job, on top of all the other tasks I'm expected to perform in a work day, would I stop to read it?

Don't worry, this isn't my first time writing them, and I've got several years experiance in writing professional correspondence under my belt. As for being busy, I think it's safe to say that they're always busy these days (I know a person who used to work at GW and plays the occasional game with Kelly now and then and last I heard he was looking pretty damn tired. It's safe to say the Devs are at full tilt all the time anymore).

Be polite, be professional, don't sound like I'm trying to verbally fellate the reader and I'll do fine.

 Triton wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'm pretty sure that wouldn't work.

Neither will anything else. Their goal is simple: pump out rules that have their dwindling number of customers buying more models.

You're making assumptions about the dev teams goals. What you're describing is the goals of a suit, not the goals of any of the dev team. I've never heard anyone describe any of the devs (and from my emailing with Kelly I'd have to agree) as being anything but passionate about their jobs. That doesn't mean they're perfect, nor are their rules, but they do try.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Serpent Shield nerf (I'm looking at 24" Range and One Use Only to balance the thing out)

Wooaa now, lets not get ahead of ourselves. If this was made, then there would be next to no reason to run serpents. For 145 points, they would be quite bad. I think 24 inch range and not ignores cover would be a better fix.

So using a skimmer transport as a transport and not a frikkin heavy tank and having the ability to turn penetrating hits into glancing ones which also counts as a weapon that may not even be destroyable isn't reason to use it? Let's be serious here, making the weapon one shot only with no regen afterwards makes it the situational weapon the fluff describes instead of adding even MORE dakka to what is supposed to be a transport. Wave Serpents do not need more Dakka than an Ork Battlewagon.

 60mm wrote:
I don't mean that you will not get a response, I mean that your letter will have the same impact as mailing yourself a blank page. How much of your input on the SoB found their way into 40k?

We'll see when they get their next codex.

 60mm wrote:
It's not like GW is unaware of the state of 40k as a game, your letter isn't going to be any news to them.

Perhaps, but they also play a different kind of game than their customer base does (when's the last time you've seen a Swarmlord make it into combat? They apparently see it.)

 60mm wrote:
I can mail a letter to the DoD about why war harms our own country and I'll bet you anything I'll receive a response thanking me for my input and that it gives them food for thought. Which obviously isn't true. If GW was willing to listen to customers, you wouldn't have much to write to them about in the first place.

From an economics and technological standpoint war actually helps the country. P

Also, you're confusing the ability and willingness of a few employees to listen with a corporate policy that says the company don't need forums or Facebook.

Besides, what's the harm in trying? Is the concept of actually doing something so wrong? I could sit on my ass and bitch on the internet like any other person or I could try something. And frankly I'm just not that good at just sitting on my ass.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You're making assumptions about the dev teams goals. What you're describing is the goals of a suit, not the goals of any of the dev team. I've never heard anyone describe any of the devs (and from my emailing with Kelly I'd have to agree) as being anything but passionate about their jobs. That doesn't mean they're perfect, nor are their rules, but they do try.

I'm drawing conclusions about the company based on the evidence. It's great that the dev team may be passionate; they don't run the company. The suit with the goals you referenced does.

I'd suggest that the little gimp licking Typhus's floor horn on his base should be considered a spell familiar added to his profile. Typhus is way too taxed for what little he brings, and I hate that little gimp.

They don't play the game differently than their customers, they just don't care about the game. I'm not sure how it could be more obvious without proclaiming it on the cover of WD.

Also, I think our recession and the trillions sunk in the middle east would very much like to disagree with you on war helping the economy.

I love yah, Zion, but this feels futile.

I sent a lengthy email to customer service asking it get sent to someone who could actually respond that expressed my feeling (I also requested a replacement to the Finecast Bretonnia dude I got a long time ago that has a curled sword and bent banner... ). It wasn't hateful, spiteful, but a kind of "I'm your target demographic in every sense. I make cool models, I paint 40k stuff for competition, I play the game like it's going out of style and I'm pretty upset about how you're running the game into the dirt."

Response?

They told me I could try warm water on my banner guy. That's about it.

 60mm wrote:
They don't play the game differently than their customers, they just don't care about the game. I'm not sure how it could be more obvious without proclaiming it on the cover of WD.

Also, I think our recession and the trillions sunk in the middle east would very much like to disagree with you on war helping the economy.

Our recession was tied more to housing bubble and the way loans were being handled (with things like not requiring collateral for the loan) than the war. Seriously, go take a Macroeconomics class.

You have to think of it from a GW perspective. They release a codex, and someone finds a broken combo to use i.e. Screamer Star, O'Vesa Star or even plain spam ( Riptides, Wraithknights and Serpents ). If people want to play them they have to buy the models. GW might get thousands of FAQ messages asking them to fix it, but they don't care when wave serpents and riptides are flying off the shelves and they are getting loads of cash. When people stopped buying tides and tzeentch daemons they killed the deathstars, sort of makes them look they the good guys for a change.

So basically they probably will ignore your letter, but there is no harm in trying.

 TheKbob wrote:
I love yah, Zion, but this feels futile.

I sent a lengthy email to customer service asking it get sent to someone who could actually respond that expressed my feeling (I also requested a replacement to the Finecast Bretonnia dude I got a long time ago that has a curled sword and bent banner... ). It wasn't hateful, spiteful, but a kind of "I'm your target demographic in every sense. I make cool models, I paint 40k stuff for competition, I play the game like it's going out of style and I'm pretty upset about how you're running the game into the dirt."

Response?

They told me I could try warm water on my banner guy. That's about it.

They may have passed on the email you sent, but there isn't much Customer Service can do for you directly beyond telling you how to fix the model and offering you a replacement.

If you're going to bark up trees you have to pick the right ones.

Seriously now, no more talk about futility or wasting my time or how useless it is please. I don't care about your opinions on how I spend my time I'll spend it how I like and if I want to spend it attempting to engage the people who make the rules for the game I play then I'll do just that. If you have something to add to the list, cool, otherwise your wasting your time and mine here.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 60mm wrote:
They don't play the game differently than their customers, they just don't care about the game. I'm not sure how it could be more obvious without proclaiming it on the cover of WD.

Also, I think our recession and the trillions sunk in the middle east would very much like to disagree with you on war helping the economy.

Our recession was tied more to housing bubble and the way loans were being handled (with things like not requiring collateral for the loan) than the war. Seriously, go take a Macroeconomics class.

War didn't cause the recession, but if we had 6+ trillion dollars still in our pockets the recession would have been pretty easy to deal with.

You are free to use your time however you wish but most people are gonna tell you this endeavour will prove fruitless. You openly asked opinions about a letter you plan to write and people have been giving theirs.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Chaos Marine Cult Calvary (Berzerkers on Juggernaughts, that sort of thing)

Thousand Sons on screamers... Surfers of the Webway! Ahriman Slater ftw

Sacrifice should be a WC 3 power (any future conjuring power as well), while Summoning shouldn't be the primaris. Aside Divination and Sanctic, all other disciplines have Witchfires as Primaris. Dark Flame or Infernal Gaze should have been Malefic's primaris. These 2 changes would help a lot holding back daemon factory. Mail them this, if you're still up for that.

 60mm wrote:
You are free to use your time however you wish but most people are gonna tell you this endeavour will prove fruitless. You openly asked opinions about a letter you plan to write and people have been giving theirs.

Someone didn't use their time to actually read what I was asking for did they?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'm trying to hit are the rules issues, units people want to see and things people want to see improved or debuffed. Because I don't play everything I'm looking to hear what people have to say, and please give me some evidence to work with as to craft a convincing argument I can't really say things like "it feels underpowered". We don't have to go full mathhammer, but something to back up the problems would be great.

Because THAT is what I was asking people to post. Not opinions on how useful this endeavor is, not snark about me wasting my time or other nonsense, but things they felt should be passed onto the devs in an ATTEMPT to see if we could actually get some improvements pushed through rather than just bitching about it into the void that is the internet.

So if you don't have something topical to add, such as issues you think need to be addressed with the game, the rules or just something that you feel needs to be FAQ'd please don't bother posting anymore, you're just wasting people's time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vector Strike wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Chaos Marine Cult Calvary (Berzerkers on Juggernaughts, that sort of thing)

Thousand Sons on screamers... Surfers of the Webway! Ahriman Slater ftw

Sacrifice should be a WC 3 power (any future conjuring power as well), while Summoning shouldn't be the primaris. Aside Divination and Sanctic, all other disciplines have Witchfires as Primaris. Dark Flame or Infernal Gaze should have been Malefic's primaris. These 2 changes would help a lot holding back daemon factory. Mail them this, if you're still up for that.

Oh I'm still up for it. I don't fold to peer pressure that easily. I really don't know if we could get the summoning powers moved around, at least not -this- edition. The best we can hope for is getting it limited to HQ models I think.

The Wave Serpent is just fine the way it is right now. Phil Kelly said he wanted it to be similar to the one in Epic Space Marine and it is. The problem with the Wave Serpent now isn't what it can do, instead, it is the fact that for some reason GW made the Wave Serpent the main transport vehicle of the Eldar instead of the Falcon. The Falcon was the main transport in Epic and that should have carried over to 40k. Wave Serpents were somewhat limited in availability and were mainly used only to transport the super specialized Howling Banshees and Harlequins into battle.

What I want out of 40k is for GW to make the things from Epic Space Marine in 40k scale and make them work very similar to Epic. The Wave Serpent does that nicely. Trying to get them to nerf it down will just make the Eldar community very angry as Eldar are supposed to have that sort of power level. They did rule the galaxy for quite a few million years after all.

If they instead, went to making the Falcon the dedicated transport again and made the Wave Serpent a specialized transport like in Epic then that would limit the power level of serpent spam.