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 Neorealist wrote:
summoned units (along with every other sort of model) are counted as part of the faction derived from the codex they are found in. Daemons are even used as a specific example of this in the relevant rule.

Ergo, yeah eldar and space marines summoned daemon's auto-mishap. (due to the interaction of being unable to be deployed within 12" of the psyker 'and' the deep strike rules themselves)

thats just made up...

quote the page that literally states summoned units belong to the detachment that summoned them...


because pg 119 literally tells you to assign all detachments PRE GAME.


if you intend to assign detachment rules mid game, in a direct violation of doing them pre game as the rules actually state,

then you must at least follow ALL the detachment rules, not just the ones you want to follow.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
Why do you claim summoned daemons are allies?
Come the apocalypse is for allied forces, bound by the rules for adding an allied detachment.
This whole discussion is absurd.

Yep. And if not being able to summon those creatures was the intent of GW, why did they allow such armies to roll on Malefic?

Not all Malefic spells involve the summoning of daemons

 easysauce wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:
summoned units (along with every other sort of model) are counted as part of the faction derived from the codex they are found in. Daemons are even used as a specific example of this in the relevant rule.

Ergo, yeah eldar and space marines summoned daemon's auto-mishap. (due to the interaction of being unable to be deployed within 12" of the psyker 'and' the deep strike rules themselves)

thats just made up...

quote the page that literally states summoned units belong to the detachment that summoned them...


because pg 119 literally tells you to assign all detachments PRE GAME.


if you intend to follow detachment rules mid game, in a direct violation of doing them pre game as the rules actually state,

then you must at least follow ALL the detachment rules, not just the ones you want to follow.

I think you're misunderstanding him, to me it appears he's saying that Deamons that are summoned are still from the Deamons Faction.

he claimed summoned units are part of the detachment that summoned them,

with no RAW backing to support it,

and RAW to disprove it, pg 119,

summoned units arrive too late in the game to be given a faction at all... they are not primary, and they are not allied... they are detachment less units that are scoring, again, as the BRB actually states...

Iirc after deployment using the 12 inch rule they have to stay greater than 6 inches away to avoid the complete shutdown ie roll a d6 get a one can't do anything.

So on initial deployment they have to be more than 12 inches away but after initial deployment it's only 6 inches. Summon away.

Look at the paragraph below the Conjuration sub-heading in the Psychic Phase section. It says that conjured creatures arrive from reserves [for all rules purposes]. How can something arrive from reserves? It has to be deployed in reserves. So, what is happening is that the daemons are conjured, which is when they are actually deployed, in reserves and then immediately afterwards arrive on the battlefield via the deepstrike rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, even if the OP's argument does apply, only the Summoning, Incursion, and, in certain cases, both the Sacrifice & Possession spells would be restricted anyways. The first two arrive via deepstrike within a certain range so they fit the parameters of the OP's argument. However, the other two spells present the possibility of there being NO Eldar/SM models alive within range of the summon. Why is this? It is because a model immediately suffers an wound with no saves allowed in the former, which results in removal from the table, and in the latter the psycher is immediately removed. Immediately means before anything else. So, these spells could leave no model in the area that would interfere with the OP's version of the summoning rules.

 easysauce wrote:
he claimed summoned units are part of the detachment that summoned them,

with no RAW backing to support it,

and RAW to disprove it, pg 119,

summoned units arrive too late in the game to be given a faction at all... they are not primary, and they are not allied... they are detachment less units that are scoring, again, as the BRB actually states...

It's interesting how you can read what I said and infer the exact opposite of my intent.

B0b Mariey is correct in his idea of what I said.

What I said (and meant) is that summoned daemons are part of the daemons faction. The rule I used to support this is part of the 'Army List' rule: "...whilst all units in Codex: Chaos Daemons belong to the Chaos Daemons Faction..."

At no point do I address what detachment it is considered to be from. Indeed I'm following another thread with great interest that is discussing exactly that.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
you are deploying during battle.

Neo - again, the context i.e. more than jus tthe one word youre hung up on, indicates otherwise. You can claim this is unimportant, bu tthe plain reading hAS to take into account the setting.

Emphasis mine.

Okay, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but this is what's hanging ME up. Deep Strike consistently refers to the act of arriving via Deep Strike as deployment. And CtA specifies that allies of this relationship cannot deploy within 12" of a CtA ally. The CtA rules do NOT specify a time frame. They only mention deployment, not pre-game deployment. So the restriction should still apply.

So are the summoned daemons part of an Allied Detachment? If no, why are you trying to apply Allies rules to them?

Because the ally rules (in 7th) key off of which faction the different units are from, not which detachment they are considered to be a part of?

 Neorealist wrote:
Because the ally rules (in 7th) key off of which faction the different units are from, not which detachment they are considered to be a part of?

Disagree. Just looked at the book and those rules all seem to refer to allied units. Which summoned daemons are not. Never said they were not Caemon faction, just that they are not Allies. What detachment are they? Don't know, don't care. They're not Allies so Allies rules need not be applied.

Feel free to disagree if you like, you are as entitled to your opinion as any. However I can only feel if you had really reviewed the section in question you'd see the word 'faction' used to describe what the interaction between different units in a army list is determined by several times and in a couple of different ways. Here is just one quote: "...The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army..."

 Neorealist wrote:
Feel free to disagree if you like, you are as entitled to your opinion as any. However I can only feel if you had really reviewed the section in question you'd see the word 'faction' used to describe what the interaction between different units in a army list is determined by several times and in a couple of different ways. Here is just one quote: "...The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army..."

You are correct. My apologies. In my defense, I was at work and while my rulebook was in the car, I didn't really have time to peruse it thoroughly,
Still irrelevant to whether or not the daemons can be summoned. We have a general rule (Come the Apoc) telling us they cannot be deployed within 12". We have a more specific rule telling us that we MUST place them within 12". Guess which one wins? Yep, the more specific.

I don't necessarily think the psychic powers are more or less specific than the allies matrix. Both apply in only certain situations (you chose to take X in your army list).

Plus I don't see why the rules don't work together. You must deploy within 12". You can't deploy within 12". A mishap is suffered. Move on.

This is no different than if you scattered into impassible terrain and therefore can't be deployed. In fact, I would say that if the daemons scattered so that they weren't being deployed within 12" of your troops, you would be good to go. So lay them down, roll the scatter. If you roll a hit, then that's within 12" and they suffer a mishap. If you scatter further away, everything is fine.

Why can't all the rules apply?

All of this babble about not being able to summon daemons because of come the apocalypse, defining what deployment means, and all this -edited by insaniak. Please do not bypass the language filter- useless!

Conjuration is not a deployment but a place effect. The place effect is by deep striking.

Conjuration is a type of psychic power which is explained separately from other text(s).

The METHOD of CONJURING DAEMONS is by deep striking. This is not to be confused with Deep Strike Deployment and Initial Deployment. Deep Strike deployment is when you set aside some of your dudes in reserve to deep strike. Initial deployment are the dudes you deploy when it is your rotation or turn to do so (BEFORE THE GAME). Conjuring is not deployment but a place effect. These models are not set aside to be deep struck later in the game. They are spontaneously generated at the whim of a successful psychic test.

Allies and the different levels of Allies (battle bros, come the aporkalips, etc) have no effect on the Conjuration of Daemons. Allies only has influence, if units are PRESELECTED BEFORE THE GAME, ON THE FORCE ROSTER, AS AN ALLIED DETACHMENT. IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, SUMMONED DAEMONS DO NOT COUNT AS ALLIES, BUT RATHER THEY'RE TREATED AS THEY'RE FROM THE SAME FACTION/CODEX THAT SUMMONED THEM. If it did, why did GW give armies access to summon Daemons from the come the aporkalips armies? Seems like a waste of ink and work effort to me lol.

My raging is done.

Right.

Couple of points:
1) There is no rules specific relevance attached to a 'place effect' ,whatever that is, or at least I cannot find it if there is. Perhaps you can clarify where you are getting that idea from?

2) The deepstrike rules themselves mention that they are used to deploy models, it is not something folk are making up just to vex you.

3) Wether something is in an allied detachment or not (or counts as being in one) doesn't really matter in 7th edition beyond the detachments' troops obtaining the 'Objective Secured' USR and a few restrictions. The new rules to determine what type of ally a unit counts as are determined by factions now.

4) GW has always taken 'casual' (read nigh-non-existent) approach to copy-editing and proofing. It would not surprise me in the slightest if they gave daemonology-malefic access to models which would in fact be unable to use most of the powers found within. Want another example? Check out Zogwort vis-à-vis witchfire psychic abilities.

 Neorealist wrote:
Right.
4) GW has always taken 'casual' (read nigh-non-existent) approach to copy-editing and proofing. It would not surprise me in the slightest if they gave daemonology-malefic access to models which would in fact be unable to use most of the powers found within. Want another example? Check out Zogwort vis-à-vis witchfire psychic abilities.

I highly doubt this since beyond the rules there is also the fact that they took the time to add it to every single codex FAQ except for Grey Knights and Tyranids and changed the CtA rules in this edition strictly because of summoning capabilities.

Deployment only happens at the beginning of the game and CtA only effects "set up" and Battle Forged army selection, not on going playing. Summoned daemons can be used by any army without regard to the CtA rules.

Deployment is a complete phase on it's own prior to the game starting. Refer to your rules summary, and sequence of play to see this CLEARLY spelled out. Yes, they sometimes use the term deploying in the rules (such as when arriving via deep strike) they are using the term to mean place, but this is not deployment as defined by the Allied Rules. Deployment is three relative things: deployment on the table, deployment in reserve, and special deployment such as infiltrators. This is the only time the new CtA rules applies.

Also, while GW may in fact miss some things, they would not miss something this major both in the rules and almost every dang FAQ. Use some common sense people.

For those hung up on the "deployed" vs. "deployed for battle", lets look at the inverse:

Let's say you take an army that includes Chaos Space Marines and CtA Dark Angel allies containing Belial and a squad of terminators. Would it be legal to deploy the CSM army and start the game, and on first turn have the Dark Angels deep strike (I.e. deploy) within 12" of their CSM allies?

Would deployment not be when they first arrive on the board? Regardless of what phase of the game it is in?

culsandar wrote:
For those hung up on the "deployed" vs. "deployed for battle", lets look at the inverse:

Let's say you take an army that includes Chaos Space Marines and CtA Dark Angel allies containing Belial and a squad of terminators. Would it be legal to deploy the CSM army and start the game, and on first turn have the Dark Angels deep strike (I.e. deploy) within 12" of their CSM allies?

Good example. Yes, it would be legal.

culsandar wrote:
For those hung up on the "deployed" vs. "deployed for battle", lets look at the inverse:

Let's say you take an army that includes Chaos Space Marines and CtA Dark Angel allies containing Belial and a squad of terminators. Would it be legal to deploy the CSM army and start the game, and on first turn have the Dark Angels deep strike (I.e. deploy) within 12" of their CSM allies?

Would deployment not be when they first arrive on the board? Regardless of what phase of the game it is in?

100% legal to have your deep striking units end up within 12 inches of your CTA unit that have been deployed previously.

culsandar wrote:
For those hung up on the "deployed" vs. "deployed for battle", lets look at the inverse:

Let's say you take an army that includes Chaos Space Marines and CtA Dark Angel allies containing Belial and a squad of terminators. Would it be legal to deploy the CSM army and start the game, and on first turn have the Dark Angels deep strike (I.e. deploy) within 12" of their CSM allies?

Would deployment not be when they first arrive on the board? Regardless of what phase of the game it is in?

Nope. 100% illegal deployment. (Of the Dark Angels, that is.) Because the deploying Dark Angels are still bound by the CtA restrictions.

Deploy can mean more than one thing, there's too much focus on exclusive definitions of the word.

coredump wrote:
Because "deploy" is an english word that fits in that situation. As well as being the process at the beginning of the game.

Think of Level in DnD.... different uses, different levels.

My level 5 Wizard cast a level 2 spell at the highest level of the castle while standing on level ground.

Explains everything! The use of deploy likely does not mean only one thing in terms of the rules.

By this logic you could only ever deep strike into your own deployment zone

We're all ignoring the fact that they CAN however scatter, which would be totally ok if that means your deamons stay clear of your marines.

 Jimsolo wrote:

culsandar wrote:
For those hung up on the "deployed" vs. "deployed for battle", lets look at the inverse:

Let's say you take an army that includes Chaos Space Marines and CtA Dark Angel allies containing Belial and a squad of terminators. Would it be legal to deploy the CSM army and start the game, and on first turn have the Dark Angels deep strike (I.e. deploy) within 12" of their CSM allies?

Would deployment not be when they first arrive on the board? Regardless of what phase of the game it is in?

Nope. 100% illegal deployment. (Of the Dark Angels, that is.) Because the deploying Dark Angels are still bound by the CtA restrictions.

It is not illegal.

as PapaSoul said, "By this logic you could only ever deep strike into your own deployment zone" which is incorrect.

You do not have to follow the deployment rules whilst deep striking.

As above. When deploying for battle you follow the restrictions, not during battle.

Deep Strike being referred to as deploying or not is irrelevant.

Summoning creatures not part of the FoC matrix of allies would imply they are not governed under such rules since they are not allies, but simply tools of the psykers themselves.

No where in the book do the rules imply summoned units are governed by allies matrices.

Unbound rules are a pure example of this, considering you could field whatever units you wanted in any way shape or form simply because they are not part of an FoC with allies.

Deploy = move troops into position for military action.

Deployment = to spread out troops so as to form an extended front or line

you ca clearly see these 2 words though similar are different. Come the apocalypses your deployment cannot be within 12 inches of each other.

when deep striking you deploy up to the max, of 12 inches. however , though it pains me to say it death reaper nailed it on the head, you deploy and with the come the apocalypses rule they can be right next to you but then because of the 6 inch rule you might not be able to act because of the keeping an eye out rule.

Anyone who can use Malific demonology can summon with no problem except the keeping an eye out rule. why must everything in 40k be spelled out like a 3rd grader could understand it.

PapaSoul wrote:
By this logic you could only ever deep strike into your own deployment zone

^ this. This point makes the rest of this discussion mute.

emmagine wrote:

PapaSoul wrote:
By this logic you could only ever deep strike into your own deployment zone

^ this. This point makes the rest of this discussion mute.

(Emphasis mine)
Perhaps you mean Moot?