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What about the Hemlock?

Can it pick Daemonology in addition to?

The FAQ seems to indicate it can.

So...

It can pick Sanctic and roll Gate of Infinity and Teleport?

Hollismason wrote:
What about the Hemlock?

Can it pick Daemonology in addition to?

The FAQ seems to indicate it can.

So...

It can pick Sanctic and roll Gate of Infinity and Teleport?

it could if it was allowed to roll for powers (its always has to take terrify)

I don't think the 'deploy' from Reserves is the same as 'deploying' before the battle. Context does matter...it would help if GW got a thesaurus wouldn't it?

But I think since the Summoned Daemons all belong to the Daemons faction, if at the end of the game there isn't a proper filling of Daemons to make at least a proper Allied Detachment, then the whole army suddenly becomes Unbound and all Troops lose Objective Secured!!! Such is the price of dealing with evil warp spawn

Due to the language used, arriving from Reserves is Deployment. The act of being deployed. Whether the meant to differentiate between Deployment that happens before the start of the game and Deployment that happens in the middle of the game is debatable. Actually in the arriving From Reserves section they explicitly refer to a unit as arriving, being deployed, and moving onto the table in the same sentence. Arriving from reserves is deployment, until GW allows us to differentiate we cannot.

The Allies section tells us how units from different factions interact, by using the allies matrix.

The Factions section tells us that the units Faction is determined by its army list entry, and that is regardless of how the army is chosen. It goes on to tell us and reiterate that if it comes from that army book, it belongs to that faction.


Summoned Daemons, belonging to the Chaos daemons Faction, are deployed via conjuration which uses all of the rules for arriving from reserves via Deepsteike and requires the unit to be deployed within 12". With CTA, which is explicitly described to be in effect due to factions which again are clearly and explicitly defined, do not allow deployment within 12". CTA Summoning forces to to attempt to Deep Strike where you cannot. If after you roll scatter and at least one model cannot be placed, due to CTA restrictions, you suffer a Deep strike Mishap As the Deep Strike rules tell us how to handle just such a scenario.

That is my best RAW interpretation using the existing language of the Rules.


Edit: Since army formation and Battleforged status determination occurs beforehand, we have no permission to check if the army still maintained such organization at the end of the battle, so Summoning would not for the army to be unbound.

 Zagman wrote:
Summoned Daemons, belonging to the Chaos daemons Faction, are deployed via conjuration which uses all of the rules for arriving from reserves via Deepsteike and requires the unit to be deployed within 12". With CTA, which is explicitly described to be in effect due to factions which again are clearly and explicitly defined, do not allow deployment within 12". CTA Summoning forces to to attempt to Deep Strike where you cannot. If after you roll scatter and at least one model cannot be placed, due to CTA restrictions, you suffer a Deep strike Mishap As the Deep Strike rules tell us how to handle just such a scenario.

There are not any rules that actually say that though.

When first deploying for battle you follow the deployment restrictions, but there are no rules that tell us to follow the deployment restrictions during battle.

 DeathReaper wrote:
When first deploying for battle you follow the deployment restrictions, but there are no rules that tell us to follow the deployment restrictions during battle.

There is literally no RAW anywhere that backs this.

In fact, the rules say the opposite. Deployment restrictions are given. There are specific restrictions that apply to pre-game deployment, (found in the section on pre-game deployment) but the CtA rules do not contain any rule telling you that they apply only to one type of deployment. They just contain a blanket deployment restriction. Therefore, this restriction applies to ALL deployment, including deploying via Deep Strike.

Look at the Allies section again.

"Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle" (BRB Choosing your army section, Allies heading, CTA alliance type).

they are only restricted when "they are deploying for battle" which is done before the battle and not during it.

As above. Deploying FOR battle is not the same as deploying DURING battle.

Looking though I believe the line about deploying for battle is meant to differentiate deploying at the start of the game, and during the game.

 DeathReaper wrote:

emmagine wrote:

PapaSoul wrote:
By this logic you could only ever deep strike into your own deployment zone

^ this. This point makes the rest of this discussion mute.

(Emphasis mine)
Perhaps you mean Moot?

To be honest this discussion went mute for me when it degraded into syntax.

However the man is right, unless 7th was a grand conspiracy to destroy all deepstriking armies then obviously summoning within 12" is fine by me, over analysing the particular linguistics is giving GW far too high a standard of writing and proof-reading/play-testing for my liking.

Deploying for Battle is not the same as using Deployment rules located in Preparing for Battle. GW refers to the game and ongoing game as a Battle and attempting to infer more from what is written is wrong. If they meant for CTA to only mean initial ore game deployment they would have stated so. Even if that is what was intended, it is not what is written, quite the opposite actually.

Okay, fluff time... Imagine you're a Space Marine. You hate Daemons. Your commander decides to call in reinforcements... a pack of Daemons shows up ten feet from you.

Your immediate reaction? I'm thinking something along the lines of "Purge the Heretic".

Zagman - so you will ignore the context of the statement, and pretend it means something else?

That isnt a RAW argument.

So if I understand the OP. Since deapstriking units are being "deployed" they are still restricted by the CyA rules. So the only thing that would refute their position would be explicit writing allowing a violation of the CtA rrstritions.

Following this reasoning. No unit can ever be "deployed" outside of your deployment zone unless it is explicitly written to be exempt from the deployment zone restrictions.

Deapstrike as I remember it never says "any where on the board, including outside of your deployment zone." Nor infiltration, nor outflanking explicitly say they are exempt from any initial deployment restrictions.

The problem is explicit vs implicit RaW

All special forms of deployment above IMPLY that they are exempt from your deployment zone restrictions.

As I understand it the op is wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Even better by the OP's reasoning you can never leave a transport with in 12 of a CtA because it described as "deployed"

Kyutaru wrote:
Okay, fluff time... Imagine you're a Space Marine. You hate Daemons. Your commander decides to call in reinforcements... a pack of Daemons shows up ten feet from you.

Your immediate reaction? I'm thinking something along the lines of "Purge the Heretic".

Except the unit already has its orders to attack the unit of Orks running up the flank. The commander (Librarian) tells the unit to disregard the daemons until the larger threat is taken care of...

simple summation to solve this: Advanced Versus Basic:

Basic: no CTA allies can deploy within 12"

Advanced: Cunjurations are deepstruck with in 12" before scatter etc. If after scatter they are within 12". TOUGH deal with it. Advanced rules trump basic

Again deathreaper has nailed it again. I say again deployment and deploy are not the same thing. Anyway gw says tiggy can summon so if I wanna waste him for some daemons I will.

wargamer1985 wrote:
simple summation to solve this: Advanced Versus Basic:

Basic: no CTA allies can deploy within 12"

Advanced: Cunjurations are deepstruck with in 12" before scatter etc. If after scatter they are within 12". TOUGH deal with it. Advanced rules trump basic

Saying something is "advanced", and then just making up a rule such as "advanced rules are more right" for no reason other then you say so is useless to the discussion.

 gozolve wrote:

wargamer1985 wrote:
simple summation to solve this: Advanced Versus Basic:

Basic: no CTA allies can deploy within 12"

Advanced: Cunjurations are deepstruck with in 12" before scatter etc. If after scatter they are within 12". TOUGH deal with it. Advanced rules trump basic

Saying something is "advanced", and then just making up a rule such as "advanced rules are more right" for no reason other then you say so is useless to the discussion.

He's not making up a rule. Advanced rules "win" over basic rules.

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

 gozolve wrote:
Deapstrike as I remember it never says "any where on the board, including outside of your deployment zone."

Funnily enough it actually says anywhere on the table, how about that..?

I am also in the camp that reads deploying for battle to mean that, the deployment done before combat begins.

I do not really understand why some think GW would give a psyker the chance to summon daemons and then in the next sentence say that you can't do that, too bad for you.

Naw wrote:

 gozolve wrote:
Deapstrike as I remember it never says "any where on the board, including outside of your deployment zone."

Funnily enough it actually says anywhere on the table, how about that..?

I am also in the camp that reads deploying for battle to mean that, the deployment done before combat begins.

I do not really understand why some think GW would give a psyker the chance to summon daemons and then in the next sentence say that you can't do that, too bad for you.

You seem to think that I agree with the OP I do not. That sentence that you quote is an example of a rule that does not explicitly state you can brake a deployment rule but is implied and understood that it DOES allow you to. Trying to show the flaw of the OPs reasoning.

rigeld2 wrote:

 gozolve wrote:
Saying something is "advanced", and then just making up a rule such as "advanced rules are more right" for no reason other then you say so is useless to the discussion.

He's not making up a rule. Advanced rules "win" over basic rules.

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

well nthis must be a first me and rigeld agreeing on something ..,.

gozolve wrote:

wargamer1985 wrote:
simple summation to solve this: Advanced Versus Basic:

Basic: no CTA allies can deploy within 12"

Advanced: Cunjurations are deepstruck with in 12" before scatter etc. If after scatter they are within 12". TOUGH deal with it. Advanced rules trump basic

Saying something is "advanced", and then just making up a rule such as "advanced rules are more right" for no reason other then you say so is useless to the discussion.

a conjuratation is by definition an advanced rule using an advanced rule set for deployment aka deepstrike and therefor trumps the basic rule of not with in 12"

Advanced vs Basic is on page 11 i think dont actually have my rulebook to hand,. as im at work, and secondly sinbce i no longer play m,arines and my only army is nids i couldnt really care either way but as writyen there is no other interpretation, except for wanna be rules lawers trying to gain an unfair advantage

So i think this is starting to get a little silly no one is willing to agrer one way or the other. I have emailed gw with this query and recommend all people with reasonable arguements do the same and we might see an faq.

I pretty sure RAI its the can summon daemons since they did it in the White Dwarf and examplea and stuff and it seems thats what they want you to do (if you can find a fluff reason) but after reading all.the posts the arguements on both sides seem valid.

So suggestion email gw wait for faq and talk it out with your gaming group and TO organises how they want it played until official ruling is made.

katana100 wrote:
So i think this is starting to get a little silly no one is willing to agrer one way or the other. I have emailed gw with this query and recommend all people with reasonable arguements do the same and we might see an faq.

I pretty sure RAI its the can summon daemons since they did it in the White Dwarf and examplea and stuff and it seems thats what they want you to do (if you can find a fluff reason) but after reading all.the posts the arguements on both sides seem valid.

So suggestion email gw wait for faq and talk it out with your gaming group and TO organises how they want it played until official ruling is made.

Oh, RAI is absolutely 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's supposed to be able to happen. Clearly, since the WD Battle Reports show loyalists summoning demons. I don't think it gets any clearer than that.

I'm just trying to find a RAW justification for it, since without one (and there is not yet a credible one that I've had a chance to confirm) this argument will apply later to ANY Deep Striking units. I wanted to start the conversation here though, since this affords us a rare opportunity to try and pick through the RAW without having to consider RAI (since we KNOW what it is).

I'll admit, I'm starting to grow concerned with GW's attitude towards FAQ's. I wouldn't hold your breath for any at this point. We may get a single FAQ for 7th ed at some point, but it looks like for the foreseeable future we're looking at one-and-done FAQs for each book to address any misprintings, omissions, or errors in the book itself (methinks this falls into the 'omission' category), plus minor updates to existing FAQs if the book in question changes some fundamental nature of the game (such as Skies of Death).

 Jimsolo wrote:
I'm just trying to find a RAW justification for it, since without one (and there is not yet a credible one that I've had a chance to confirm) this argument will apply later to ANY Deep Striking units.

Here is the RAW justification for it.

"Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle" (BRB Choosing your army section, Allies heading, CTA alliance type).

Units are only restricted when "they are deploying for battle" which is done before the battle and not during it.

That is the RAW that confirms that Space Marine or Eldar Psykers can actually do it.

 gozolve wrote:

Naw wrote:

 gozolve wrote:
Deapstrike as I remember it never says "any where on the board, including outside of your deployment zone."

Funnily enough it actually says anywhere on the table, how about that..?

I am also in the camp that reads deploying for battle to mean that, the deployment done before combat begins.

I do not really understand why some think GW would give a psyker the chance to summon daemons and then in the next sentence say that you can't do that, too bad for you.

You seem to think that I agree with the OP I do not. That sentence that you quote is an example of a rule that does not explicitly state you can brake a deployment rule but is implied and understood that it DOES allow you to. Trying to show the flaw of the OPs reasoning.

I do not think so, I never even implied that. I just pointed out it does say so.

 CrownAxe wrote:
So gate of infinity and veil of darkness are deployment as well

If you veil of darkness a deathmark unit in from reserve, these units count as being "deployed" for the purposes of hfh tokens. Same as them coming in from reserves.

I would interpret the rule to mean pre battle deployment otherwise any cta allies that come in from outlfank, deep strike or otherwise will mishap when they're within 12 inches of a cta ally.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Units are only restricted when "they are deploying for battle" which is done before the battle and not during it.

I must have missed the page number for this part.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Units are only restricted when "they are deploying for battle" which is done before the battle and not during it.

I must have missed the page number for this part.

it is in the Choosing your army section under allies, levels of alliance Come the Apocalypse section.

"Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle."

If you are CTA you can not deploy within 12” when deploying for battle.

Damn if people put this kind of work and effort into curing cancer as opposed playing with toy men we would have eradicated cancer ages ago.

For the record I say they can summon demons. Not because I want them to for fluff reasons...but the player has spent points on the psyker and risked perils of the warp and used warp charges to power the summoning.

To sit across from your opponent and say "well, actually because of the confusion over deployment vs. "deployment"...you can't do that" is seriously inviting a throat punch followed by not being able to get in a game for being TFG.