Ogryn or Bullgryns Any Good in 7th?

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**madcore**

Hey Guys,

Just wondering if Ogryns or Bullgryns are any better now that 7th edition is here? I did not had time to read the new rules but I am hoping they might be wroth it as i love the models...I just don't like models gathering dusts...I have enough CSM doing it so...

Let me know if any of you have been using them with success..

Regards

Fred.

**Eihnlazer**

If you had some tanks moving up behind them and the tanks had cammo netting you could make those tanks hard to kill.

But you'd also need some psykers to get shrouding or invis off on the bullgryns.

A single unit of Ogryns with a primaris psycher to buff them could be good as a backfield deterrent unit if your running an aegis gunline as well.

**TheSilo**

Bullgryns are pretty good. For only 5 points over regular ogryns they get a 4+ save, with 3+ in formation. Their gun doesn't change much. They will wreck most assault units, and a S5 hammer of wrath is really good.

The power maul upgrade is a little too pricey for S7 Ap4. For that price you could just get auto cannons elsewhere.

Priests or Primaris psykers are a must, don't want that expensive ogryn squad running away. Commissars are too likely to shoot out an ogryn.

**madcore**

I agree that using them as a shield for a leman russ squad could prove usefull and insanely resilient if they alo get invisibility....the question is how many should you take.... Is three enough or should i take more?

**ultimentra**

You could always just cast invisibility on the Leman Russ squad itself...

**WisdomLS**

Remember that they can now use other codexs transports so an assault vehcle like a landraider is now an option to get them to the figh.

**DaddyWarcrimes**

For what you're paying for them, you can have Thunder Hammer terminators in the Land Raider instead. Bullgryns wouldn't be bad if AM couldn't pick and choose among vastly superior Space Marine and Grey Knight assault units.

**martin74**

I have been running both ogryn and bullgryn often in just fun games. As always, yarrick with 5 ogryn in a chimera. Makes it a difficult warlord for your opponent to get "slay the warlord" point. I put a 3 man bullgryn squad in front of yarricks chimera. If I run pask in a punisher w/ heavy bolters all around (with punisher w/ heavy bolters) I put the bullgryn in front. Yes, camo nets are needed for this. I haven't run psykers yet, I just might though.

**Trickstick**

martin74 wrote:
I have been running both ogryn and bullgryn often in just fun games. As always, yarrick with 5 ogryn in a chimera.

They changed Ogryn, they now take up three transport slots each.

I did think about Yarrick and ten Ogryn in a Stormlord. That is a lot of points but you can use it as an awesome line breaking force. The pseudo open-topped means you can shoot and/or charge, whilst having superb durability and decent fire power.

**martin74**

I just realized that the other day. Now itis just three ogryn with yarrick in the chimera. 5 bullgryn out front.

**Sir Arun**

For people who dont want to exploit tactics using allies from other codices, I think Bullgryns are great.

It sucks that Ogryns now look even worse compared to that and nobody will ever field them apart from hardcore WYSIWYG players.

3 Bullgryns in a U formation are great because this means you need to kill the left guy AND the right guy before the last guy loses his 3+ armor save back to a 4+.

And 3 Bullgryns in a U formation that is sorta spaced out (2" from each other) can easily cover at least 1 Leman Russ by partially concealing it.

Maybe you'll need 4 or so since i dont have the rules for obscuring vehicles 100%ly in mind and dunno if the enemy can shoot through the space between 2 Bullgryns and say he has clear LoS,

but in any case I think they are the perfect unit to go along with an advancing Paskisher column all equipped with camo gear.

Yeah, Bullgryns + camo gear is a huge points sink into making the Pask squadron more survivable (now that it gets solid 4+ cover from the front), but oftentimes that extra turn your Paskisher and company are alive will mean that much more carnage instead of 3 burning wrecks. It also helps them from being rushed by a cc-unit.

**martin74**

Placed a dark angel librarian in termie armor with power field generator between the 5 bullgryn and pask punisher HQ unit. That was a fun game.

**Sir Arun**

martin74 wrote:
Placed a dark angel librarian in termie armor with power field generator between the 5 bullgryn and pask punisher HQ unit. That was a fun game.

hahaha now that's gold

Allying in a DA Libby and 5 space marines in a drop pod or rhino is not a bad idea at all

**martin74**

Used 5 scouts with sniper rifles and cloaks. Just having a T5, 3W, 3/4+save with a 4+ invul save was great. Pask squad survived well.

**Brother Payne**

One the tank idea - ally in Dark Angels and take a Dark Shroud - 2+ cover on your tanks

Imo you need 6 Bullgryns to make it worth while. Plus then you can shield more units (read: LR Demolishers).

Edit: if you march a Techpriest and a bunch of Servitors behind then they're pretty much indestructible

... Until tau wreck your world

**Sir Arun**

I call it the IG procession of Doom

**TheNightWillEnd**

So it sounds like there are some decent uses for Bullgryns in friendly games. Has anyone seen them in a competitive setting?

And, what about the good ole' fashioned Ogryns? I personally play against a lot of DE, against whom those Ogryns will go down harder than guardsmen in the open, but has anyone tried MSUgryns?

I was thinking the stock three in a chimera with a priest and a psyker could be effective. An ML2 primaris psyker rolling on biomancy with them could produce some fun plus the priest buffs.

But worth 295 points? ...

**Paradigm**

Personally, I like Ogryn a lot and wouldn't touch Bullgryn with a barge pole, and for one simple reason. (Perhaps aptly) Bullgryn are too confused to make the most of everything they bring to the field. Look at what you pay for, and what that means:

S5, T5, 3A, 3W- these stats scream Close Combat Monsters, they can and will smash up most non-dedicated CC units and some CC units. However...

Slab Shields- they are best used to provide cover for units that need it, typically tanks and artillery that really want to be hanging out at maximum effective range as they gain nothing from getting closer.

So you're now paying for the stats of something that wants to get in and smash stuff up, but the wargear of unit best used in a defensive role, basically a walking ADL but nearly 3 times the cost of one. While this can work if the enemy are coming towards you, oftentimes they won't, and personally I wouldn't want such an expensive unit tied up in such a split role, as whichever you do, you're missing out on some of what you pay for.

Ogryn, on the other hand, are as good as they have been since 5th, because, like all the best units, they're focused. They have CC stats, a decent gun at short range and basically know what they're trying to do. They excell in the 0-12" range, and work as a spearhead for an assault or as a counter-charge unit, but either way, they get the most of what they pay for simply by virtue of turning up and hitting stuff. Now they can take Priest bonuses as well, they're even better!

**TheNightWillEnd**

So what's your choice way of getting them into combat?

**Paradigm**

If I'm playing aggressive, which I normally am, I throw them forward with a whole bunch of Guardsmen on either side, simply providing more guys than the enemy can kill and the Ogryn generally take a lot of heat off the Infantry and still survive to charge and beat something up.

If, on the other hand, I'm facing Orks or Nids where the enemy are coming to me, I'll hold them back behind a weak point of my line (and not one covered by my 4 Flamer PCS) and charge into the first thing that breaks through.

**TheNightWillEnd**

So no transports?

**Paradigm**

No, I tend to run almost all footsloggers, only using vehicles like Russes and Hellhounds for fire support. Typically, I'll have close to 100 guys in most lists, mostly on foot.

**PhillyT**

No they aren't very good, but they look great.

**Sir Arun**

Sorry but I absolutely disagree. The only things you lose by fielding Bullgryns is the S5 and 3 Attacks. But these arent really useful anyway because of initiative 2.

T5, 3 wounds and a 3+ armor save when put in b2b all contribute to making a very resilient unit.

Why are Bullgryns important? Because they can move 6".

Who else can move 6"? Paskisher and friends. The Slabshield Bullgryns provide excellent cover for the tank commander and his advancing squad, especially if they need to be at the front due to short ranged weapons like punisher gatling gun, demolisher cannon etc.

**PhillyT**

Why bother though? Run a tank in front of pask with camo netting. Make sure it is partially covered by almost anything it is resilient enough. Blowing points on bullogryn for the cover doesn't really work out. A minimum unit of them barely gets the cover job done and isn't that hard to cut down if a person felt the need.

**Paradigm**

Sir Arun wrote:
Sorry but I absolutely disagree. The only things you lose by fielding Bullgryns is the S5 and 3 Attacks. But these arent really useful anyway because of initiative 2.

T5, 3 wounds and a 3+ armor save when put in b2b all contribute to making a very resilient unit.

Why are Bullgryns important? Because they can move 6".

Who else can move 6"? Paskisher and friends. The Slabshield Bullgryns provide excellent cover for the tank commander and his advancing squad, especially if they need to be at the front due to short ranged weapons like punisher gatling gun, demolisher cannon etc.

You make a good point in regard to the Paskisher, as that does work at short range and is worth dedicating a counter-assault unit to protect, but other than that, I still disagree. Yes, they are durable, but in terms of giving cover T5 and 3W is still worse than an ADL that can never be destroyed, and for a fraction of the cost and covering many times the distance, with the only disadvantage being immobility, which only affects the handful of short-range units worth protecting (the Paskisher, really)

I just find them way too confused. They want to bunch up to get the 3+, but spread out to cover more stuff. They want to hang back to defend stuff, but also want to be in CC where their S5 attacks, regardless of the low I, are still going to cause a lot of hurt.

I find them generalist where Ogryn are focused and specialist, and in IG, I'll take specialisation over generalisation any day. Being Guard, they have the points and FOC space to bring units to cover each situation, rather than having a jack-of-all-trades units (which work far better in SM armies where there are less squads to go around).

By all means, if you find they work for you, don't let me deter you, but personally I'll take Ogryns every time.

**TheNightWillEnd**

I'm still a bit afraid to try that because there is so much AP5 and poison in my meta. I don't mind having my footslogging guardsmen and conscripts get mowed down, but I feel like I'd have to go with a huge expensive unit of Ogryns to get them into CC. I'll borrow some and try though.

But, I do very much want to try the 3 Ogryns + Primaris Psyker (biomancy) + priest + Chimera combo.

**Sir Arun**

if your going for cc, why not take power maul bullgryns? S7 Ap4 attacks, 5+ inv (the same kind of inv. sav as on tactical terminators) and the abiliy to re-roll failed HoWs

**TheNightWillEnd**

I'm tempted, but that just ups the points investment risk as they're 60 points each and it's not like they have jetbike movement.

One idea that I have for them -- as I've been doing the same thing for my conscript blobs -- is giving them an inquisitor with the Liber Heresius, which will give them a scout move provided he passes a Ld10 test after deployment.

**PhillyT**

Bullogryn aren't a good buy from an efficiency perspective. That doesn't mean they have no uses or they aren't fun, but they aren't a good buy.