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Both Ogryn and Bullgrn get an absolute yes from me
I run five man Bullgryn teams, in which the Bone'ead gets a power maul and brute shield. That unit on charge tears units to pieces, and then holds them in place. Bonus points if you take them in the Red Waagh formation.
Ogryn I run four in a Chimera. With orders, particularly pinning, they become nothing short of terrifying. Less useful in assault than Bullgrn, but like their cousin, they lock the scary stuff in assault.

Space wolf allies.

Drop pod.

Bring a couple psychers and pray for invisibility.

Hilarity ensues.

diepotato47 wrote:
Both Ogryn and Bullgrn get an absolute yes from me
I run five man Bullgryn teams, in which the Bone'ead gets a power maul and brute shield. That unit on charge tears units to pieces, and then holds them in place. Bonus points if you take them in the Red Waagh formation.
Ogryn I run four in a Chimera. With orders, particularly pinning, they become nothing short of terrifying. Less useful in assault than Bullgrn, but like their cousin, they lock the scary stuff in assault.

I thought you had to kit everyone out with mauls

youre right about SW dpods

Just thought of a great use for them...

Been thinking about issodon and how to best use him for a few days now and have gone to my AM dex.

Take issodon + a unit of bullgryns (say 5) with slabshields (inc commissar) + a 50 man guardsman blob (with 5 poweraxes, 3 melta bombs and 20 krak granades) + cypher + 3 more slab shield bullgryns + 5 tac marines in a pod + priest and inquisitor with rad and liber also in the pod. It will come to 1270pts.

Use issodon to infiltrate both bullgryns squads and guard blob. Put issodon in the bullgryn squad and cypher in the guard blob. Use issodons scout to scout the bullgryns an extra 6" forward. Run all units forward on turn 1. The bullgryns will be an average of 2.5" from the opponent. The guard blob and second bullgryn squad will be an average of 8.5" from the opponent, the guard directly behind the bullgryns. This is at the end of T1 movement.

Due to slab shields and issodons stealth + shrouded the bullgryns will have a 3+ with a 4+ cover. Due to cyphers shrouded + intervening models + the +1 from slab shields, the guard will have a 2+ cover save.

During turn 1 movement you will also have brought the pod down and attached the inquisitor with liber heresius and rad granades and the priest to the guard blob. The pod will be accurate due to issodons locator beacon.

The opponent cannot outflank to reduce to a 5+ cover as the other bullgryn squad is protecting the flank. (Other flank covered by board edge).

During turn 2, issodon joins the guard blob. The guard blob now has a 2+ cover, counter attack, hit and run, reroll attacks and wounds, opponents at -1t, cypher, issodon, and 5 sargeants with power axes to do the damage that multiple st3 attacks rerolling to hit and wound cannot achieve. It is also either in the opponents deployment zone (if they didn't deploy on the line), or only ~8" away from it and opponents units. If the 5 man bullgryn squad takes heavy fire and dies, use the flank squad to take their place if the opponent has retreated to their board edge in an attempt to put off the inevitable, or the tac squad for a 3+ rather than 2+ cover.
Meanwhile the other 730pts of your list (in a 2k game), is supporting either via pods or via firepower. Say Pask squadron, vindicator, sicaran and 1 or 2 scout squads.

Of course this would be weak to high rof ignores cover blasrs such as TFCs, wyverns, quad guns etc (spread out). But things such as serp shield won't be winning its points back shooting at 5pt guardsmen.

The 3 man bullgryn squad could take point and the 5 man traded for a 5 man th/ss squad to run alongside the blob. If you think the 3 man squad will survive a turn of shooting (it is after all only 13 t5 3+/4+ cover wounds before shots start hitting issodon - 5 man maybe the safe way to play it).


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And best of all - no reliance on psychic powers!


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Actually the flanking squad will HAVE to be termis, as you can't take 2 allied bullgryn squads without 2 CAD or unbound. Oh well - no big loss, the termis can do the job almost as effectively once the bullgryns are down, and are much more dangerous when they hit.

1) you cant combine infiltrate and scout EDITED. thanks

2) you cant attach characters with infiltrate to squads that do not have infiltrate

Issodon grants those units infiltrate with master of ambush warlord trait.


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Any 3 infantry units.


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Also:

If a unit has both infiltrate and scout special rules, it may deploy as per the infiltrate special rule and then redeploy as per the scout special rule.

Small rule book p171.


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So bullgryns + blob + termis granted infiltrate from master of ambush. Cypher and issodon join units since they also have infiltrate. All units deployed via infiltrate. Bullgryns gain scout from issodon who gains it from his CT (raptors). Bullgryns then scout (with issodon). That's precisely what is said above.


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So I can do 1.) And I am not doing 2.). What I am doing is attaching infiltrating characters to squads that have infiltrate.

See the thing is:

1) you deploy models who have the infiltrate special rule (and want to infiltrate) AFTER deploying all units that do not have infiltrate.

2) You can attach ICs to units during deployment.

3) You cannot attach infiltrating ICs to non-infiltrating units during deployment because non-infiltrating units MUST be deployed on the table BEFORE infiltrating models/units are.

4) The hypothetical scenario where an IC that gets attached to a non-infiltrating unit passes his Infiltrate USR to the entire unit is true, but attaching the non-infiltrating unit with the infiltrating IC is impossible due to 3)


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Lias Issodon gets the Master of Maneuvre warlord trait, which is outflank


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also, Raptors CT says "Note that units which contain models with any variant of the Bulky special rule do not benefit from either rule." and Bullgryns are Very Bulky, which is a variant of Bulky, so they receive neither the Stealth, nor the Scout buff

I know that whole sequence and that wasn't what I was doing. I was granting Infiltrate to all 3 units (not from the character but form master of ambush) as in the PDF I had downloaded (about 6 months ago) he had Master of Ambush, I see now they has changed that to Master of Manoeuvre. When did they change that btw?

And the Orgryns are not gaining scout from the Raptors CT, they are in a unit with a model with scout (who has gained it from raptor CT since he is not bulky), and a model passes it on to the unit he is in. The orgryns are not gaining it from the CT, they are gaining it from a model with the scout rule. Exactly the same with stealth.

 PhillyT wrote:
Why bother though? Run a tank in front of pask with camo netting. Make sure it is partially covered by almost anything it is resilient enough. Blowing points on bullogryn for the cover doesn't really work out. A minimum unit of them barely gets the cover job done and isn't that hard to cut down if a person felt the need.

Cause my ork boyz will glance leman russes to death while bullgrins will keep them at bay for quite some time.

Poly Ranger wrote:
And the Orgryns are not gaining scout from the Raptors CT, they are in a unit with a model with scout (who has gained it from raptor CT since he is not bulky), and a model passes it on to the unit he is in. The orgryns are not gaining it from the CT, they are gaining it from a model with the scout rule. Exactly the same with stealth.

You do know that the codex' "units which contain models with any variant of the Bulky special rule do not benefit from either rule." means a codex rule overrides the BRB rule of certain USRs spilling over to the unit, right? The unit doesnt even have to be a RG (or Raptor):CT unit. It is a specific disadvantage given to ICs with RG (or Raptor) chapter tactics.

I thought you had to kit everyone out with mauls

Nope, any model in the squad, no need for all of them. I put it on the Bone'ead only because he gets more attacks. He won't benefit from the +1 to his armour save for being in b2b with another Bullgryn with a Slabshield, but he does get a 5+ invul, which I prefer in case the squad gets shot with something AP3

Fair point Will come in handy for challenges.

 Sir Arun wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
And the Orgryns are not gaining scout from the Raptors CT, they are in a unit with a model with scout (who has gained it from raptor CT since he is not bulky), and a model passes it on to the unit he is in. The orgryns are not gaining it from the CT, they are gaining it from a model with the scout rule. Exactly the same with stealth.

You do know that the codex' "units which contain models with any variant of the Bulky special rule do not benefit from either rule." means a codex rule overrides the BRB rule of certain USRs spilling over to the unit, right? The unit doesnt even have to be a RG (or Raptor):CT unit. It is a specific disadvantage given to ICs with RG (or Raptor) chapter tactics.

Again - they are not gaining it from the CT, they are gaining it from there being a model in the unit with scout and stealth. He happens to have it from the CT, but the Bullgryns are not gaining it from the CT but from the model passing it on to the unit. The fact that Issodon gained it from CT has nothing to do with the fact that the bullgryns are gaining it from a model, not a CT.


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And it's been confirmed that Issodon has Master of Ambush, the Master of maneuver is from an earlier edition volume.

I got his rules from here - this is outdated?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/C/Charcterupdate.pdf


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Poly Ranger wrote:
Again - they are not gaining it from the CT, they are gaining it from there being a model in the unit with scout and stealth. He happens to have it from the CT, but the Bullgryns are not gaining it from the CT but from the model passing it on to the unit. The fact that Issodon gained it from CT has nothing to do with the fact that the bullgryns are gaining it from a model, not a CT.

Please see http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/619389.page#7286187

After having reread this part:
'Note that units which contain models with any variant of the Bulky special rule do not benefit from either rule.'
I do believe you are correct, as he is either a unit by himself OR he is part of a unit, he cannot be both. And if he is part of a unit then there is a model in that unit with the very bulky usr so the unit cannot therefore gain it. Spot on. Suppose there is no point in the Bullgryns after all then!

Yeh it's out of date apparently. I made a post in the discussions forum after you had mentioned it and I found the master of manoeuvre version. Hope you don't mind that I mentioned you. Ansacs cleared it up by showing that there is a V2 with a more recent date of publication.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/619366.page