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 basement.dweller wrote:
Can anyone with Scale75 colors measure the size of a bottle? I've been googling for the info, but no luck.

You don't need to, although apparently it's around 75mm. That photo in the post above is enough as Terminators are ~37mm tall, That makes that human around 40mm and not in any way '35mm to the eyes".

Moving their guys over to the side of the regular sized minis you get this...

 paulson games wrote:

 Delephont wrote:
There was a photo on their Facebook page with their models alongside some other company products, including a SM and a Termite......just saying....

scale games wrote:
▻ Which scale do you use for Fallen Frontiers figures?

At Scale games we have chosen to scale O (O gauge), where 7 mm correspond to 1 foot.
In this way a model of 1.80 m (6.8 ft) in reality, will measure 40 mm in total.
When we say that a human is 35 mm in FF we refer up to the eyes, not total, since is commonly used as a standar among brands selling kits of 54 or 75 mm.

Yet they are still claiming the minis are 35mm on their main page FAQ, the terminator is 37mm to the top yet it's not eye level with the unarmored troop (who's eye level seem to be at least 39-40mm tall). The armored troops has it's eye level at 40-42mm most likely so how is that considered a 35mm model? Are these 54mm scale model? 75mm? their FAQ answer is clear as fething mud. .

It works (sort of...if you ignore their own confusion). The figures do look to scale out at UK O Gauge (7mm per foot). A 6 foot tall individual would be 42mm tall flat footed, 43 or so wearing any sort of boot. The regular guy in their picture would only stand 6'4" tall - above average, sure...but I think that is probably on purpose and still perfectly within the realm of realistic sizes.

Based on the confusion within there own ranks on what they are writing - I really do think they fell victim to the 1/48 versus 1/43 issue relating to O gauge.

 Artemis Black wrote:

 basement.dweller wrote:
Can anyone with Scale75 colors measure the size of a bottle? I've been googling for the info, but no luck.

You don't need to, although apparently it's around 75mm.

That was only one reason I was wondering I built myself the best paintrack that money can't buy to fit my needs and I did my research for the paints I normally use. There are slight variations between the brands but I made the tolerance levels so I could fit Reaper, Vallejo and Army Painter. Unfortunately I can't walk in to a store over here and pick up a Scale color bottle to check.

Also I might as well repost this as it might be relevant to some.

From the random platypus forum

47mm to the neck of the bottle


ignore the size comparison of this photo as it is photo shopped

@Piston Thanks that helps a lot actually.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 paulson games wrote:

 Delephont wrote:
There was a photo on their Facebook page with their models alongside some other company products, including a SM and a Termite......just saying....

scale games wrote:
▻ Which scale do you use for Fallen Frontiers figures?

At Scale games we have chosen to scale O (O gauge), where 7 mm correspond to 1 foot.
In this way a model of 1.80 m (6.8 ft) in reality, will measure 40 mm in total.
When we say that a human is 35 mm in FF we refer up to the eyes, not total, since is commonly used as a standar among brands selling kits of 54 or 75 mm.

Yet they are still claiming the minis are 35mm on their main page FAQ, the terminator is 37mm to the top yet it's not eye level with the unarmored troop (who's eye level seem to be at least 39-40mm tall). The armored troops has it's eye level at 40-42mm most likely so how is that considered a 35mm model? Are these 54mm scale model? 75mm? their FAQ answer is clear as fething mud. .

It works (sort of...if you ignore their own confusion). The figures do look to scale out at UK O Gauge (7mm per foot). A 6 foot tall individual would be 42mm tall flat footed, 43 or so wearing any sort of boot. The regular guy in their picture would only stand 6'4" tall - above average, sure...but I think that is probably on purpose and still perfectly within the realm of realistic sizes.

Based on the confusion within there own ranks on what they are writing - I really do think they fell victim to the 1/48 versus 1/43 issue relating to O gauge.

The most obvious reason it doesn't work is that if it's 7mm to 1ft and 35mm to the eyes then that quite clearly means their average male human is only 5ft to the eyes. Which is stupid

7mm to 1ft loooks perfect for what they've produced, everything else, including the 6.8ft typo is rubbish. 7mm to 1ft is a 40mm game. Just cal it a damn 40mm game. I can't belive we're well over 2 weeks into this and they still won't just come out and admit it's a 40mm game.

Think Bones hit the nail on the head with the use of train gauges but the confusion would be killed stone dead if they had a tape measure beside several figures.

As much as I want this one to fund NOW, during this campaign, this is looking less and less likely.

The last 5 days have seen over 60 backers and £10K leave the project, with no end to the bleeding in sight.

A cancellation here and a revamp, with clearly stated sizes, materials and goals seems to be the only recourse now.

And I'll be there for that, if they choose to do it!

Scale just addressed the heavy use of spanish in the comments section, which I'm sure has put some people off to an extent.

They seemed to have been discussing the 'value' of the kickstarter, suggesting that the funding goal should be lower, with closer stretch goals.
Which is nuts and shows that some people really don't have a grasp on the reality of these sort of projects.
Those sorts of comments seem much more destructive than the genuine production concerns that had everyone losing their minds.

Lol.....I really do understand the scale issue, but I find it very amusing that somehow WH40K has become the yardstick for the debate. Back when I played WH40K I remember having lengthy discussions about how the GW minis didn't respect the fluff for their own game....the fact that my super Marines were often the same size or smaller than an imperial guard really hampered my attempts at suspension of disbelief!

It's ironic that one of the knives in the back of this project is its inability to ape GW's f'd-up sense of human proportion and scaling.....when I see things like this I realise there is truely no limit to how fundamentally GW has screwed up tabletop wargaming......I'm thankful I got out when I did!

So, for Constructive Criticism:

IF/WHEN they relaunch:

1) Clear declaration of materials to be used, at specific funding levels - but be VERY clear that there is no HIPs unitl (X)
2) Representative resin miniature sample pic on the Front Page
3) Scale shot with ruler on the Front Page, along with sample miniatures from popular ranges
4) Lower initial funding goal for 'just' the box set, with expansion factions as stretch goals at $(X) intervals
5) Work with a native English speaker to help doublecheck and polish as many 'official' posts and updates as possible

Helpful, but maybe not strictly necessary:

6) RE-launch as "USA" based so as to use that oh so attractive "$"

Thoughts?

Other suggestions?

 Delephont wrote:
Lol.....I really do understand the scale issue, but I find it very amusing that somehow WH40K has become the yardstick for the debate. Back when I played WH40K I remember having lengthy discussions about how the GW minis didn't respect the fluff for their own game....the fact that my super Marines were often the same size or smaller than an imperial guard really hampered my attempts at suspension of disbelief!

It's ironic that one of the knives in the back of this project is its inability to ape GW's f'd-up sense of human proportion and scaling.....when I see things like this I realise there is truely no limit to how fundamentally GW has screwed up tabletop wargaming......I'm thankful I got out when I did!

I don't think that's the issue, everyone just knows how big a marine is so that is the physical comparison point. People are more concerned that these guys are going to dwarf all their existing Infinity, Deadzone etc. terrain.

To a degree, I agree with a lower level of funding, but have merchandise re-worked to accommodated such change.

For the sake of example.

60k gets it funded, but only 2 armies with a limited number of sculpts.

They bit off a lot more than they can chew.

If they try to offer tons of miniatures for little cost you are going to get what you paid for,

Quality cost money.

Perhaps some people thinking otherwise can squat and gak gold for SG.

 Alpharius wrote:
So, for Constructive Criticism:

IF/WHEN they relaunch:

1) Clear declaration of materials to be used, at specific funding levels - but be VERY clear that there is no HIPs unitl (X)
2) Representative resin miniature sample pic on the Front Page
3) Scale shot with ruler on the Front Page, along with sample miniatures from popular ranges
4) Lower initial funding goal for 'just' the box set, with expansion factions as stretch goals at $(X) intervals
5) Work with a native English speaker to help doublecheck and polish as many 'official' posts and updates as possible

Helpful, but maybe not strictly necessary:

6) RE-launch as "USA" based so as to use that oh so attractive "$"

Thoughts?

Other suggestions?

I think that would cover it. As I've said before I was very impressed by the first impression of this campaign, they had done a lot of things right on the surface.

What's the most succesful tabletop or miniatures campaign that ran in pounds sterling? Darklands?

 Delephont wrote:
Lol.....I really do understand the scale issue, but I find it very amusing that somehow WH40K has become the yardstick for the debate. Back when I played WH40K I remember having lengthy discussions about how the GW minis didn't respect the fluff for their own game....the fact that my super Marines were often the same size or smaller than an imperial guard really hampered my attempts at suspension of disbelief!

It's ironic that one of the knives in the back of this project is its inability to ape GW's f'd-up sense of human proportion and scaling.....when I see things like this I realise there is truely no limit to how fundamentally GW has screwed up tabletop wargaming......I'm thankful I got out when I did!

Yeah, GW's sense of 'scale' and 'proportion' really has created a generation (or two?) of gamers that have some odd ideas on what looks good!

So, Delephont, since you've purged GW, what games are you playing these days then?

Like I said in their comments, possibly smaller ks exclusive stretch goals in between blister pack/faction stretch such as weapon packs or little scenery pieces - just something to keep momentum up whilst the money funds units. Plus people like little ks exclusive extras but they shouldnt be so great that they put off post kickstarter buyers (Im looking at you zombiecide!)

I really think a scale change is needed for this to take off in a big way. It'll stay niche if not as many (probably including me) would rather use their existing stockpile of scenery.

 Alpharius wrote:
Thoughts?

Other suggestions?

If it was me, I'd try to use the results of this Kickstarter to secure a loan to produce one sprue of HIPS. I'd then use that one sprue of HIPS to secure Kickstarter funding for the rest of the range.

I'd also like to see a starter with a higher concentration of miniatures that I personally would want to buy, but that's just me.

Now If Scales games were to talk to Tre Manor in how things can go awry.....

Those who dont know the histories of kickstarters are doomed to repeat them.

Brother carphaelus 1692



@plastictrees

Yeah think it would be Darklands it would have probably doubled its money if it wasn't for the unpleasantness beforehand.

 Pilgrim_uk wrote:
Now If Scales games were to talk to Tre Manor in how things can go awry.....

@plastictrees

Yeah think it would be Darklands it would have probably doubled its money if it wasn't for the unpleasantness beforehand.

I think it would have made more were it in USD as well.

You are probably right about that Dooley might have even reached kingdom death levels then.

 Pilgrim_uk wrote:
You are probably right about that Dooley might have even reached kingdom death levels then.

We'll maybe not that high .

But I do think having the USD instead of the GBP helps. Which is funny of course because the GBP is stronger.

I think listening to the randoms in the comments section is a huge mistake. You can't design an entire kickstarter by committee. Most of these people have no idea what they are talking about in reality (Not insulting this particualr group, in general most people have no idea what they are talking about unless they actually do whatever it is for a living etc. Just like I wouldn't expect anyone to listen to me if I was commenting in a tech-based kickstarter).

It's nice to get involved and show support but the worst thing SG can do is just keep changing thinsg based on the opinion of a random few people. They have their own vision and right now they have no idea how many people are into it or not cos what they presented was about 4 or 5 completely different visions.

This still has a good chance of funding, what they need to do to give it the best chance is just come out and state a bunch of stuff directly (and in English and Spanish, how hard is it to hire a native English speaker to run a kickstarter that's in English?).

"We are a 40mm game"
"Our minis will be in resin (A mistake imo but it's what they've said so they're stuck with it now)"
"If we make £130k we'll start to produce some minis, starting with the core boxset, in HIPS (I still don't think they mean 'everything' in HIPS)"
"Our Beta rules are the basic core of the game, they will be greatly expanded and properly translated into English as the project goes on"
"We are immediately removing any minis from the advertising that are not what you will actually get i.e. the 75mm ones"
"We are asking our graphics guy to photoshop 25mm bases onto any relevant minis so you can see actual size"
"Sorry for any confusion in the early parts of this KS"
"p.s. We have sent an errand boy to the local hobby store to buy 15 metal rulers and will be giving one to everyone involved in our company"

No idea if that'll be enough to stop the rot but at least they'll know these people aren't leaving cos they haven't got a clue what's going on. I mean if not enough people are into a 40mm wargame in the first place then they're screwed regardless. Having a load of painters be a fan of larger minis doesn't help that much when you're trying to market a game not a line of minis. They already do larger scale versions of some of these minis that painters can get.

Tre has always been very explicit about what scale he uses. He just doesn't normally post comparison photos or photos of his models next to a ruler, so it is an issue of people not knowing what 33mm true to scale means.

Comparison photos and photos next to a ruler are always the best way to go in my opinion.

During Journey wrath of demons two distinct camps came out those who wanted plastic and those who wanted resin. I think the resin is putting off a lot of gamers so will it stop the rot even if they do all thats listed but no plastic is in from the start.

People like options. ( thats an opinion from a random)

from scale games rep: "May be you are right...
We thought in making them for gamers and for collectors. Big mistake.
Thank you very much for your help.
It is very well appreciated.
Best wishes from Spain."

In a PM discussion with them thru KS

 Alpharius wrote:


So, Delephont, since you've purged GW, what games are you playing these days then?

Well, after dropping GW, I toyed with MERCS and Infinity, even a little Malifaux.....the problem was finding regular players in my area who were willing to try something new. Considering that my first love is modelling and painting, the enthusiasm to keep pushing up the hill died along with my tabletop gaming 'career'.....now I model and paint almost exclusively at scales ranging from 54mm and upwards to 1/4 scale.

My only requirement for anything under 54mm is for roleplay games (Pathfinder, Eclipse Phase, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and Dark Heresy, etc).....that's why this kick starter grabbed my attention

 Delephont wrote:
Lol.....I really do understand the scale issue, but I find it very amusing that somehow WH40K has become the yardstick for the debate. Back when I played WH40K I remember having lengthy discussions about how the GW minis didn't respect the fluff for their own game....the fact that my super Marines were often the same size or smaller than an imperial guard really hampered my attempts at suspension of disbelief!

It's ironic that one of the knives in the back of this project is its inability to ape GW's f'd-up sense of human proportion and scaling.....when I see things like this I realise there is truely no limit to how fundamentally GW has screwed up tabletop wargaming......I'm thankful I got out when I did!

Being an appropriate size for 40K doesn't require models to use the same wonky proportions.

But again, fitting into 40K isn't really the only issue with the scale. As has been mentioned several times now, they don't fit with existing terrain collections, and that's an issue for some gamers.

 insaniak wrote:

 Delephont wrote:
Lol.....I really do understand the scale issue, but I find it very amusing that somehow WH40K has become the yardstick for the debate. Back when I played WH40K I remember having lengthy discussions about how the GW minis didn't respect the fluff for their own game....the fact that my super Marines were often the same size or smaller than an imperial guard really hampered my attempts at suspension of disbelief!

It's ironic that one of the knives in the back of this project is its inability to ape GW's f'd-up sense of human proportion and scaling.....when I see things like this I realise there is truely no limit to how fundamentally GW has screwed up tabletop wargaming......I'm thankful I got out when I did!

Being an appropriate size for 40K doesn't require models to use the same wonky proportions.

But again, fitting into 40K isn't really the only issue with the scale. As has been mentioned several times now, they don't fit with existing terrain collections, and that's an issue for some gamers.

To be fair, the debate has flip flopped back and forth between the miniatures being suitable proxies to the terrain issue.....in both cases the argument is flawed, in particular when WH40K is the assumed 'baseline'. As I said a few pages back, even GW doesn't respect the scale of its miniatures in relation to vehicles / buildings. If they did, a Landraider would need to be at least 1.5 times larger than it is, and that's just to accommodate its own rules....let alone fluff. So running this project down on the basis of scale relationship to buildings and vehicles, when arguably, one of, if not, THE most successful tabletop wargames has gotten away with it for decades is laughable at best, disturbing at worst.

 Pilgrim_uk wrote:
During Journey wrath of demons two distinct camps came out those who wanted plastic and those who wanted resin. I think the resin is putting off a lot of gamers so will it stop the rot even if they do all thats listed but no plastic is in from the start.

People like options. ( thats an opinion from a random)

That was never a problem. They always offered both.

People want the resins to paint.

Further, Journey was ALWAYS marketed as a board game.

Why are you talking about a land raider as if it's terrain?

Buildings are scaled much better than vehicles, imo- at least assuming unarmed people inhabit them.