Arm save question...

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**Guarder22**

Hey everyone, this may be a stupid question but if I have a character with an ARM of zero and he gets shot in the open would I still make a saving throw? If I do then I simply have to beat the damage without any modifiers right?

I am asking because my friend plays Ariadne and his SAS trooper got hosed out in the open by a Celestial Guard with a Spitfire. My friend simply pulled the model off of the table, so I am curious if he could have at least attempted a saving throw even with his ARM 0. I have been looking around but I can't seem to find a definite answer.

**SlaveToDorkness**

I'm pretty sure you gotta have at least ARM 1 to get a roll.

**chromedog**

Having armour is not a prerequisite to getting a save.
The ONLY thing that denies an armour save is a CRIT - when you take the wound and cannot make the save against it.

Armour zero (0) just needs to beat the damage of the weapon without any bonuses.

So an arm 0 model hit with a single HMG shot (dam 15) in the open, needs to roll 16 or better NOT to take the wound.

That same model in partial cover needs to roll a 13 or better (partial cover grants +3 arm bonus)

**dementedwombat**

When I read through the rules I never saw anything to indicate that you need an armor score of any kind to make the save. Your friend might have just decided it was unlikely enough to make the saves that he might as well not bother, especially if there were multiple saves to be made. Alternatively you could have rolled a critical (exactly your ballistic skill after modifiers). Not sure if you were familiar with that rule. Crits give an auto-wound no save. If you haven't seen a line trooper with a combi rifle down a TAG with a crit then you are missing out on one of the most glorious things that can happen in this game.

**chromedog**

Or someone with a TO camo TAG counting on his combat camo double flamethrower strike killing your guys before they can react.

Except your guys are a 4 man link team, whose 6th sense removes his first strike advantage and although all 4 get hit by the flamers, they all do one crit each in ARO, dropping the TAG to dead.

I called it "taking an ARO to the knee."

**-Loki-**

chromedog wrote:
Having armour is not a prerequisite to getting a save.
The ONLY thing that denies an armour save is a CRIT - when you take the wound and cannot make the save against it.

And monofilament ammo.

**rahxephon**

-Loki- wrote:
chromedog wrote:
Having armour is not a prerequisite to getting a save.
The ONLY thing that denies an armour save is a CRIT - when you take the wound and cannot make the save against it.

And monofilament ammo.

Do you mean ignores ARM? You still get a save from a monofilament hit it just doesn't care if you are a Fusiler or a Jotum. It gives anyone a 40% chance to be all sweet as pie or stone dead.

**SlaveToDorkness**

huh, We have taken the "...in this roll the ARM is a positive number..." to mean that it needed to be a positive number (not 0). thanks guys, we've been playing it wrong!

**-Loki-**

Hrm, for some reason I thought monofilament ignored ARM saves.

**chromedog**

Nope, mono only ignores your armour bonus. It only denies a save, like any other ammo type, on the crit.

Against mono, you roll >12 or DIE whether you are ARM10 or ARM 0 makes no difference.

A crit with mono also takes you straight to DEAD. No unconscious, no no-wound-incapacitation, no immunity, dead.

**chromedog**

SlaveToDorkness wrote:
huh, We have taken the "...in this roll the ARM is a positive number..." to mean that it needed to be a positive number (not 0). thanks guys, we've been playing it wrong!

Nope. Arm0 still allows a save (small chance to survive.). Just don't go getting hit by explosive rounds (3 saves).

**-Loki-**

Yeah, the only thing ARM does in regards to saves is give you a positive modifier. If you have ARM 0, you just have to beat the weapons DAM on an unmodified roll (unless you were in cover).

To be fair, ARM doesn't do a whole lot. It's nice to have, but it doesn't start making much of a difference until you hit ARM 4 or higher. 3 and lower and you really want to be in cover as well.

**chromedog**

Yeah, ARM4 or better in cover are a beast to shift.

Swiss guard in cover is a monster.

(-9 to hit unless you have MSV) and then +8 to ARM roll (unless special ammo).

**Pacific**

Yes as a rule stuff with low armour in the open will get toasted even by small arms fire.

Put something like a heavy infantry in cover and there chances of survival increase substantially, although ideally you are still better ducking back out of LoS if you start getting hit.

Fire is already dangerous enough, can't imagine it with armour zero guys getting no save at all!

**SlaveToDorkness**

Well, our games do go pretty fast...lol

**-Loki-**

Sounds like when my brother and I started and we thought weapons got their full burst in ARO.

Created a very tense game where neither of us wanted to move, sort of like the old Overwatch standoffs in 2nd edition 40k. Once we learned you only got 1 shot in ARO (outside of things like Total Reaction), movement started to become a thing we actually did.

**chromedog**

ARO in 1st edition - from what I heard - WAS full burst, though.
(I've only played from the 2nd ed rules).