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Hello all, I plan on 're making the dark Angels book from the ground up and fixing alot of the mistakes I see with it and trying to re introduce the feel to the book, but first off I'd like to see what the community feels some of the issues are with the book.

Thanks for your replies in advance.

Codex dark angels chapter tactics:

Dark angels: a primary detachment taken with the "dark angels" chapter tactic has the following rules.

Stubborn usr

Intractable: when a "dark angels" unit suffers 25% casualties from shooting and fails it's morale test it becomes subject to the intractable special rule.
If affected by the intractable special rule the "dark angels" unit acts in the following way.

The "dark Angel" unit may not move in the following movement phase.
The "dark angel" unit may fire all of its non template weapons twice in its shooting phase.
The "dark angel" unit gains the fearless usr untill the start of the enemies next shooting phase.

If a model or unit has the "fearless" usr it is not subject to the "intractable" special rule.

Inner circle
"dark angels" veteran sergeants and independent characters have the hatred "Chaos space marine characters" and prefured enemy "chaos space marines"
Fearless.

Warlord traits.
Dark angels may roll on the following warlord traits or the main rulebook ones, any trait rolled on the dark angels table May be swapped for the primaris trait.

Hunt the fallen, Primaris 0
The warlord must issue and accept challenges if in combat with any character from codex chaos space marines (and supplements), for each character slain in a challenge roll a d6, a result of 4+ gains the dark Angel player a victory point in addition to any others they may be entitled to (slay the warlord etc.)

1: vanguard assault: any unit in a dedicated transport (except drop pods) may choose to outflank instead of normal deployment, dark Ange ( and successors)chapter tactics only.

2:The decent of angels: the warlord and any unit it joins does not scatter sheen it deep strikes, furthermore any friendly unit deepstriking within 6" does not scatter, dark angels (and successors) only.

3:Master of tactics: if playing an eternal war mission the warlord and any dark angels (and successors) unit they have joined have the objective secured rule, if playing maelstrom of war thewarlord may draw a card in addition to the normal allowance and choose which to discard at the end of each turn.

4:Sons of the lion: the warlord and any friendly dark angels (and successors) unit they join May elect to re roll all failed to hit rolls in either the assault or shooting phase, one use only.

5: master of maneuver: the warlord and any friendly dark angels (and successors) unit they join May roll an additional d6 for running, add 6 to any turbo boost if mounted on a bike/jetbike, or use jump packs in both movement and assault phase.

6: stubborn pride: the warlord and any friendly dark angels (and successor) within 6" May elect to automatically fail an intractable test, this applies even if fearless. One use only

Wargear: unless otherwise stated here all Wargear and rules presented in codex dark angels remains unchanged.

Nephilim
Avenger bolt cannon: range 24" str6 ap4 heavy 6 rending pinning.
Blacksword missiles: range 36" str7 ap4 missile lock, armourbane, one use only.
Avenger Patten las cannon: range 36" str9 ap2 heavy 2 twin linked

dark talon:
Talon bolter array: range: 18" str4 ap4 assault 6 twin linked
Solarite beam cannon: range 18" str 5 ap5 blast, pinning, blind, concussive, strikedown.

Blade of caliban: the blade of caliban can be used in one of 2 modes, declare at the start of the fight subphase
one handed: str:user, ap3 +1 ws
Two handed: str: +1 ap2 unwieldy two handed
points changed to 15
Sword of secrets: change to ap2, independent characters may purchase for 20pts

Deathwing terminator:
Stats unchanged.
Special rules: unchanged
Wargear: power weapon and storm bolter, May purchase power fist to replace power weapon for 3pts per model, lightning claw to replace power weapon free, dual lightning claws to replace. Redemption storm bolter and power weapon free, up to 1 model per 5 May take an assault cannon for 20pts, plasma cannon 15pts, cyclone missile launcher 20pts, heavy flamer free
Any model may take a thunder hammer and storm shield for 10pts each, replacing all weapons except cyclone missile launcher.
Redemption storm bolter: salvo 2/3 master crafted.
Pts: 35pts each

Deathwing sword support squad 0-1 heavy support.
235pts for 5, May take up to 5 more terminators for 40pts each.
Stats: same
Specail rules: same: a Deathwing support squad may not deep strike.
Wargear: heavy flamer, power weapon, terminator armour.
Sargeant: redemption storm bolter, targeter, power weapon.
Options: any terminator armed with a heavy flamer May upgrade to take one of the following, replacing there heavy flamer.
Plasma cannon 10pts
assault cannon 15pts
In addition any terminator May take the following in addition to there normal weapons:
Cyclone missile launcher 20pts
Havoc launcher 10pts

Deathwing knights. 0-1
235 for 5, May take up to 5 more terminator for 47pts each.
Stats:
Ws5
Bs4
S4
T4
W2
I4
A2/3 sarge
ld9
Sv 2+/3++
Wargear: same
special rules: same:
Stats: same

More updates coming

can't figure out if you're going to try and make it a standalone codex or an added chapter option to codex: SM

with the latest 7th ed changes, I'm quite happy with the codex, the only thing i'd want is a better flyer, reduce the points cost of the existing flyers OR increase the value.
ex: blacksword missiles s6 ap4 one shot,- really? what are these good for? increase the strength or decrease the AP or scrap them altogether.

i would be a fan of them scrapping the current flyers altogether and giving DA access to the stormraven and stormtalon.
also, put the skyfire/interceptor mortis dread in the codex, pls

Plans are to make codex dark angels similar to space marine as in chapter tactics for the parent chapter and each of the named successors, all with similar but not the same chapter tactic.

I have already tested and updated both the nephilim and dark talon and will post them when I get to the fast attack section.

I have changed the blacksword missiles to missile lock str7 armourbane one use only ap4, the avenger bolter to ste6 ap3 6 shots, the lascannon to heavy 2 twin linked and the heavy bolters are upgradable to assault cannons for 20pts, the flyer now costs 160 before upgrades etc.

Sounds interesting, I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

I have recently decided to undertake the same exercise.
I like the idea of reintroducing the INTRACTABLE rule. I never really like the concept of the DA going in a way dumb. How about something like this:


Grim Resolve:
Stubborn USR
In addition, a unit containing at least one model with the Grim Resolve special rule can never choose to automatically fail a Moral Check

Intractable: when a "dark angels" unit suffers 25% casualties from shooting and fails it's morale test it becomes subject to the intractable special rule.
If affected by the intractable special rule the "dark angels" unit acts in the following way.


*The "dark Angel" unit does not fall back.
[The "dark Angel" unit may not move in the following movement phase.] Change to: The "dark Angel" unit may not move in the movement phase, run or assault.
[The "dark angel" unit may fire all of its non template weapons twice in its shooting phase.] change to: The "dark angel" unit's bolters become 2/4 salvo weapons (same as BoD)

The Intractable Rule will remain in effect until the end of the player turn and one of the following occur:
1) the unit has engaged in a Fight Sub-phase, or
2) there are no enemy units within 24", or
3) a friendly Independent character is within 12'

However, to be honest I'm not a big fan of complicated rules and would probably just go with:
Energy Weapon Master: The dark angels have meticulously preserved their chapters arsenal of plasma weapons and are superior to other chapters in the maintenance and crafting of such weapons. As such weapons fielded by DA Codex models ignore the "gets hot" special rule on all weapons. (this is on par with Iron Fist and Salamanders who get special bonuses to certain weapons, they get to reroll)

ravenwing: all ravenwing with the USR "skilled rider" shoot with their normal ballistic skill in the turn after they jink. (I think this should be the rule for every army)

Ravenwing attack bikes: can take plasma cannons

About Warlord Traits:
In the name of simplicity:
All DA characters (including special characters) can roll on the DA Warlord Trait Table or one of those included in the Rule Book. However, if a model from the Chaos Space Marine Codex is in the opposing army your warlord must take "The Hunt" Warlord Trait from Codex DA.

Troop Selection: DA can take 0-1 units of DW and 0-1 units of RW as troops without taking any special characters.

Wargear: I can't figure out why they shouldn't have grav-weapons. Therefore, they now have access grav-weapons as special weapons and DW have access to grav-cannons. (This will help with monstrous creatures, although without sterngard you will have to take something with relentless or a command squad)

Monster Slayer of Caliban: 35pt, with the Monster Hunter (usr) in all forms

Nephilim: Cost reduction
replace blacksword missiles with Stormstrike Missiles form SM Codex: 72" S8 AP3 Heavy 1, Concussive, One use only.

Dark Talon: Cost reduction
replace hurricane bolters with:
plasma talon array:
18" S7 AP2, Assualt 4 twin linked. (this might be a little overkill)
Rift cannon changed to large blast

Land Speeder Vengeance: 11 armor all around and skilled rider as stated above. (the LSV is essentially a tank... a tank with 10 armor, come'on)

DA now have access to the Mortis Pattern Dreadnought as a heavy support choice (We still don't have access to Ironclad Dreadnoughts)

That is some good sounding stuff. I think the DW needs a bad overhaul.
1st: the weapon list only has a combi weapon for 6pts.... So the chapter master, Libby, and Chaplains can't get LC or Th/SS?
And wouldn't it be awesome if the Terminator Squads could replace their SB for a Combi-weapon? Would make DWA viable again.
Also, the price of these models? $$$$$$$
Lets drop the price or make some changes. More than 1 heavy weapon per 5 man squad?
And the DW Knights, Lets give them 2 wounds at lest. (more like the GK paladins) And up them to WS 6 and/or 3atks...? these guys are suppose to be the elite of the elite = to a Company master.

Thank you all for the suggestions guys.

Ravenwing and deathwing will have there own codex's inside this book that will have unique dw and rw units (knights etc.) these will be 0-1 in a normal dark Angel force but not limited in the respective wings.

This is my idea for a few dw units.

Deathwing knights
Special rules are tweaked, +1 t is now in 2" not base to base.
Ws5
Bs4
S4.
T4
W2
I4
A2/3 veteran
ld9
Sv2+/3++
Wargear remains the same.
42pts each

Deathwing sword support squad.
Stats: same
Wargear: targeter, redemption storm bolter, cyclone missile launcher.
May upgrade cyclone to
plasma cannon 10pts
Heavy flamer free
assault cannon 10pts
up to 2 May take conversion beamer OR graviton cannons for 15pts each
50pts each.

Deathwing command squad.
Ws5, 2 wounds otherwise unchanged stats
May either have cataphractii terminator armour or standard.
Wargear unchanged, 1 model may have graviton cannon Or Conversion beamer for 10 pts as above.
45pts each.

Contemptor dreadnought.

Mortis contemptor

That's the basics of my ideas for them so far, warlord traits and dw specific relics need work, open to suggestions.

I think your DW Sword Support squad is way too strong. A heavy weapon squad that can deep strike and has relentless... and termie armor to boot..

I would remove their teleporters. How about this idea:
1) DW SS replace their power fist with an additional heavy weapon. This makes DW SS models have the twin linked rule (standard these days for double weapons)
2) due to the extra energy needed to supply his armorment a DW SS has had his teleporter removed.
3) squad size 1-3

I don't know if I agree with increasing the wounds and decreasing the cost.


Regarding Ravenwing ICs:
Remove SM Bike (20pts) from the Wargear List
Add: Ravenwing Bike (20pts): The model becomes a Bike unit per the rulebook, is equipped with Plasma Talons and teleport homer and gives the model the Skilled Rider, Hit & Run, and Scout USR.
(keep in mind the difference between a veteran (18pts) and a black night (42pts) is only 24pts and buying the bike didn't give you a corvus hammer.)
This basically establishes that the Character worked his way up through the ranks: Ravenwing Attack Squad, Ravenwinf Black Knight, Ravenwing Character.

Thanks for the suggestions rod.

With the terrible state and vastly overcosted nature of terminators at the moment lowering the cost of knights and adding a wound simply brings them in line with how they should behave on the table top, 46pts is where there at currently and this is far too much.

Take into account the lack of offensive output (except when activation), they lack any ranged output at all, can only do well in cc, are very slow, the preponderance of ap2 that exists, if anymore that the current price of 42 they would simply be not used, now I do agree that they may be a little tough as they are at the moment but they are supposed to be, dw knights are the most elite of the most elite terminators in 40k, a standard dark angels force can have 1 unit Max of these.

The dw support squad is something that actually already exists,iI created this squad several years ago and now fw has almost the exact same unit in the iron warriors legion, they havea better invun, better guns and debuff enemy cover, can also come in larger squads.

My ones are the same cost have a worse save and are fearless, that about it, hh has a distinct lack of ap2 that is as widely available in 40k, so in short the 30k ones are better in nearly every way but cost the same as my ones, now I totally agree with removing the deep strike, it actually makes sense.
The squad will be limited to 5, after testing I will see if this is too. Few.

I will take your ideas into account when I do the ravenwing.

I didnt know that about the FW squad. what book is that in? The main op thing was the teleporter. A heavy weapon termie squad will be good, but probably not over powered.

Another idea that a friend recommended and I shared at the game store this past weekend was Shield Combat Specialist. It fits the lore very well with the whole knight theme.

Shield Combat Specialist: this knight has honed his skill on the sparing ground and the battlefield. He is an expert with shield and weapon, able to use his shield offensively to throw his opponent off gaurd and even strike.

A unit with a combat shield or storm shield gets a hammer of wraith attack at the begining of each fight sub phase. This attack is made at initiative step 10 and is a melee attack at user strength, ap- .

+1pt for the shield or not, havent decided. This is escentualy a mandi blaster. I love the imagery and fluff of this idea.

Horus heresy book 3 iron warriors, there brutal

 Formosa wrote:
Horus heresy book 3 iron warriors, there brutal

I wouldn't advise taking Heresy-era content and inserting it into normal 40k without careful consideration; the Heresy armies are supposedly balanced against each other and not intended for normal 40k games.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Horus heresy book 3 iron warriors, there brutal

I wouldn't advise taking Heresy-era content and inserting it into normal 40k without careful consideration; the Heresy armies are supposedly balanced against each other and not intended for normal 40k games.

Do you have any experience with the Legions in a 40k setting? They are represented perfectly, they are average at best at low points and amazing at the 5k points mark. thats called balanced.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Horus heresy book 3 iron warriors, there brutal

I wouldn't advise taking Heresy-era content and inserting it into normal 40k without careful consideration; the Heresy armies are supposedly balanced against each other and not intended for normal 40k games.

Not gonna jump on you for not reading a wall of text haha but suffice to say I CAME UP WITH THIS UNIT YEARS BEFORE FW, not shouting just emphasis, I'm not putting a fw unit into 40k I'm useing a unit I made for 40k in 40k, but I do thank you for asking


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Found it, infact 4 YEARS before fw or gw thought of it, and looking through my old posts I get the distinct feeling that I got most of the primarchs rules correct too haha

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/439965.page

 Formosa wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Horus heresy book 3 iron warriors, there brutal

I wouldn't advise taking Heresy-era content and inserting it into normal 40k without careful consideration; the Heresy armies are supposedly balanced against each other and not intended for normal 40k games.

Not gonna jump on you for not reading a wall of text haha but suffice to say I CAME UP WITH THIS UNIT YEARS BEFORE FW, not shouting just emphasis, I'm not putting a fw unit into 40k I'm useing a unit I made for 40k in 40k, but I do thank you for asking


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Found it, infact 4 YEARS before fw or gw thought of it, and looking through my old posts I get the distinct feeling that I got most of the primarchs rules correct too haha

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/439965.page

I will concede the point.

I'm still worried, though, about the Knights. They're pretty cheap for what they do; all the Heresy-era two-Wound Terminators are at least +5pts over an identically-equipped normal Terminator and none of them have access to 3+ Inv saves. I really don't like the +1 T for unit coherency; the +1 T for base-to-base was there to make some trade-off for getting it, as you've written it you're effectively just giving them T5 on the statline.

I'm hesitant about the "Sword Support Squad"; I get that they're just Tyrant Siege Terminators with more gun options but one of the big differences between the Legion army list and the modern Space Marine army list is that the heavy weapons get integrated into squads instead of having an all-heavy-weapons squad and a no-heavy-weapons squad. I'd prefer a Devastator Terminator unit with two heavy weapons per five in Heavy Support.

Slightly off-topic right now, but I've got some ideas for the Land Speeder Vengeance, seeing as most people I know think it's pretty weak. Do these stats seem overpowered?

Plasma Storm Battery:

Burst mode:
Range S AP Type
24" 7 2 Heavy 5, Gets Hot, Twin-linked

Charged mode:
Range S AP Type
24" 7 2 Heavy 2, Gets Hot, Large Blast, Twin-linked

Cost of Land Speeder Vengeance increased to 150. +1 HP.

BTW, I'm sort of confused as to why all veteran sergeants would have Inner Circle? From what I know of the lore, that wouldn't really make sense. I could be wrong though.

Thanks for the input guys

Having played the unit a bit more ano your right, the knights are a tad too cheap, I will now up them to 52pts each and see how they do.

The sword support squad is Deathwing only, if we consider that knights are the "vanguard" vets of Deathwing and the standard sqaud is the "tactical" sqaud, then it makes sense we have a "devestator" squad or "sternguard" squad, having tried sternguard terminators before I'm not going tk use them here so that leaves the "devestator" squad, I will tweak them slightly though to represent a sort of codex unit.

Sult, wow that's a beast and a bit too good I think, I was simply going to make the plasma storm battery an executioner cannon that's twin-linked, what does everyone else think?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh nearly forgot, yes vet sarges can be inner circle as rank means nothing in the inner circle, as veteran sarge is now an upgrade from just sarge iI decided to bring that particular rule back.

Updated op with dw

However, to be honest I'm not a big fan of complicated rules and would probably just go with:
Energy Weapon Master: The dark angels have meticulously preserved their chapters arsenal of plasma weapons and are superior to other chapters in the maintenance and crafting of such weapons. As such weapons fielded by DA Codex models ignore the "gets hot" special rule on all weapons. (this is on par with Iron Fist and Salamanders who get special bonuses to certain weapons, they get to reroll)

ignore gets hot rule is wrong imo it removes the flavour of plasma, better would be if they could reroll a failed gets hot. its still there Da just have more reliable plasma and the flavour is maintained.

Ok I think I need to remove this fallacy, Dark Angels do not favour plasma mote than any other chapter, they have alot old heresy tech still kicking around and as a by product of this they're allowed plasma cannons in tactical sqauds (3rd ed) and now we have the displacer field etc.

Plasma was no more reliable in hh, therefore dark angels will not be receiving a gets hot buff from me, I do appreciate the suggestions.