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So I was reading through the rules for barrage and I noticed that there is no longer the restriction that barrage can only hit the top level of a structure as there was in 6th. In fact, the rules make no mention of multi-level buildings as far as I can see. So the question presents, how do barrage and/or blast weapons interact with multi-level structures? Do they get to choose which level they hit, even the ground floor? Are all models underneath the marker wounded, regardless of level? Somewhat of an unrelated note, a friend of mine said that similar language was also missing from the flame template section, possibly indicating the same changes for it (since last edition it had to be one level above or below the base of the model only).

The rules are much simpler. Hold the template above the table. Look down. Everything underneath is hit.

Booooo!

this is terrible news!!

just remember, only models that can be seen under the template are hit.

If you cant see the model due to it being under a flight of stairs or obstructions (namely floors) it isnt hit.

So now you are immune to ALL blast weapons as long as you have a roof over your head? Or can you place the template on any level?

The player who is firing the weapon can aim it wherever he wants too.


Then it scatters and every model you can see under the blast template gets hit.



Really the only change is that if you scatter you dont automatically have to place the blast template on the top floor. You can now specify which floor your scattering onto.


It also removes the problem we had with skyshield pads.

What is the reasoning behind the notion that you hit the models that you SEE under the blast or template when the rules only state that the models need to be under the blast or template to be hit? A model three stories down would still be under the blast or template as this is written. Im not saying this is right, I wouls want to know why this is wrong since it would be insane.

the pase "under the template" is a bit too vague honestly.

you could hold it up 5 feet, put your eye up to it and look down through it and see the entire table.

Does that mean you hit the entire table?

Of course not.


If you first place the template correctly, over the intended target and then scatter it exactly in the manor your supposed to (horizontally), then you would have to pick a floor or a height to start with.

When the scatter is finished you look straight down from above the template and any models you can see are hit.

Thats it. No need to complicate it any further.

I agree, but I would like a page reference or quote that supports that reasoning.

Eihnlazer wrote:
the pase "under the template" is a bit too vague honestly.

you could hold it up 5 feet, put your eye up to it and look down through it and see the entire table.

Does that mean you hit the entire table?
.

hahahaaha im gonna try that and totally justify it.

Bombardment!

Cant give you a page number im afraid. I dont even have my copy of 7th yet.

My FLGS didnt open when i went to pick it up Wednesday because of emergencies.

The line of sight stuff is a generous interpretation. The rulebook doesn't state that you draw line of sight from the template, just that you need to take a good look at it from above to see what is underneath.

The interaction with multilayer terrain has been deliberately removed for all blasts and templates. So , no you are not immune underneath a skyshield.

P158 and p173.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The line of sight stuff is a generous interpretation. The rulebook doesn't state that you draw line of sight from the template, just that you need to take a good look at it from above to see what is underneath.

The interaction with multilayer terrain has been deliberately removed for all blasts and templates. So , no you are not immune underneath a skyshield.

P158 and p173.

Yes you are, if you are under the skyshield, you are not underneath a template.

You wouldn't say the basement is beneath the sheets of your bed.

if your in an apartment, are your downstairs neighbors under your sheets?

When we use beneath & underneath, we use it to mean only those immediately and in close proximity to the item covering it.

So when you look through the blast marker, what you see is what you get.

sirlynchmob wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The line of sight stuff is a generous interpretation. The rulebook doesn't state that you draw line of sight from the template, just that you need to take a good look at it from above to see what is underneath.

The interaction with multilayer terrain has been deliberately removed for all blasts and templates. So , no you are not immune underneath a skyshield.

P158 and p173.

Yes you are, if you are under the skyshield, you are not underneath a template.

You wouldn't say the basement is beneath the sheets of your bed.

if your in an apartment, are your downstairs neighbors under your sheets?

When we use beneath & underneath, we use it to mean only those immediately and in close proximity to the item covering it.

So when you look through the blast marker, what you see is what you get.

Thats strange, I was always under the impression that my downstairs neighbors were in fact "underneath" and "beneath" me. For example: "Today I made a new friend in my building. His appartment is 2 floors underneath mine.

This logic does not hold up well as there are far too many interpretations of "underneath." However, the "look from above and see" bit does seem to indicate that you do actually need to see the models through the template, which is HIWPI. Still, given the vague wording of the rule, I am unsure if this is actually what was intended and would really like to see an FAQ.

Further Thought: If my blast scatters, and I am not bound by choosing a floor, it could scatter to the floor of my choosing. Given this, here is another question. There is a 2 level ruin with 1 guardsman on the top floor, and 9 bunched up on the floor beneath, out of my line of sight. As I can only see the single guardsman on the top floor, I place the template over his base. I roll hits on the first two scatter dice and thus generate 1 hit each, for a total of 2. Next, my third scatter die shows and arrow and scatters for 4 inches. As the Wraithknight is BS4, the scatter is reduced to 0 inches. Can I scatter the template 0 inches to the bottom floor for 9 hits? Or is there a rule that says, "scattering 0 inches counts as a hit?"

since you cannot scatter up or down, i think this is self explanitory.


Where you place the original blast marker is the floor you have chosen.

Eihnlazer wrote:
since you cannot scatter up or down, i think this is self explanitory.


Where you place the original blast marker is the floor you have chosen.

Seems logical, but i don't think there is any rules support for this. We already know the the "select a level" rule is gone. Since you are not selecting a level to begin with, what prevents your blast from scattering to a different level?

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Further Thought: If my blast scatters, and I am not bound by choosing a floor, it could scatter to the floor of my choosing. Given this, here is another question. There is a 2 level ruin with 1 guardsman on the top floor, and 9 bunched up on the floor beneath, out of my line of sight. As I can only see the single guardsman on the top floor, I place the template over his base. I roll hits on the first two scatter dice and thus generate 1 hit each, for a total of 2. Next, my third scatter die shows and arrow and scatters for 4 inches. As the Wraithknight is BS4, the scatter is reduced to 0 inches. Can I scatter the template 0 inches to the bottom floor for 9 hits? Or is there a rule that says, "scattering 0 inches counts as a hit?"

This question doesn't make any sense because there is no concept of scattering to a different floor. All ten guardsmen would be hit since they are all under the template, but you could only allocate wounds to the single guardsman that you have LOS to. So it makes it much more likely that you'll kill that one model, but doesn't allow you to kill more than one model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
However, the "look from above and see" bit does seem to indicate that you do actually need to see the models through the template, which is HIWPI.

This doesn't work because you can use paper cutouts or other opaque templates, in which case you couldn't see any models at all. The rule is that all models under the template are hit, "look from above and see" merely provides the typical method for determining which models are hit.

One relevant rule is the IG deathstrike missile: it uses a 10" template, but the rules explicitly state that if you don't have the huge template available you can just measure distance from the center point. Since these two are considered equivalent methods without any note that this is a unique case it pretty strongly suggests that the only thing that matters is whether or not the model is within the appropriate area and the method for determining the answer to that question just a matter of convenience and personal preference.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Yes you are, if you are under the skyshield, you are not underneath a template.
You wouldn't say the basement is beneath the sheets of your bed.

if your in an apartment, are your downstairs neighbors under your sheets?

When we use beneath & underneath, we use it to mean only those immediately and in close proximity to the item covering it.

So when you look through the blast marker, what you see is what you get.

LOL. The rule for top floor only is gone. Anything uner the blast marker is hit and can be wounded and killed. its simple. and the skyshield BS people have been using where they hide artillery under the floor and fire through it but cant be hit is gone. if your under the shell thats blowing up through floors and such your hit and wounded. Even the skyshield.

I would have preferred if they added that barrage can't be fired if the firing model is under terrain.

Lungpickle wrote:
and the skyshield BS people have been using where they hide artillery under the floor and fire through it but cant be hit is gone.

It was only a thing at all if people cheated. The skyshield was never a multi-level ruin and therefore the rules for only hitting one level never applied. Barrage weapons have always hit stuff under a skyshield.

 Peregrine wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
and the skyshield BS people have been using where they hide artillery under the floor and fire through it but cant be hit is gone.

It was only a thing at all if people cheated. The skyshield was never a multi-level ruin and therefore the rules for only hitting one level never applied. Barrage weapons have always hit stuff under a skyshield.

Indeed, this concept that you have to physically see the model is belied by the ability and permission to use paper templates which are opaque - last thread on this someone claimed that despite these being IN THE RULEBOOK to use, with explicit permission to do so, it was cheating to use them!

Skyshields have always been hit underneath, as not a ruin, as you say. People playing them as ruins were not playing them "correctly" (given how fethed up they were rules-wise this isnt a shock, though)