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Did all of the anti-Heldrake people forget "EXPLODE" is still a thing? Yeah, we get the same invuln save all our daemons do and IWND is great if the Heldrake survives a round of "OMG KILL EET!" from loyalists and Tau, but you can still shoot the damn thing out of the air with a well placed Lazcannon shot and since Loyalist fliers seem to have two TL Lazcannons at their disposal, plus another two batteries of wtf to shoot, they've got a good shot of bypassing all of the Heldrakes defenses before it can make its points back with the Baleflamer.
So this stupid argument that "Chaos should stop crying" can stop coming from non-Chaos players. EVERY OTHER FLIER OUT THERE, for utility purposes and army synchronicity, is better than the Heldrake PERIOD. The only reason you clowns are so afraid of the Iron Dragon in the first place is because it killed your precious infantry the way Tau kill infantry in turn 1.
The Heldrake is a solo-act, even when flying with other Heldrakes. It's a harasser and a support flier. It's not transporting troops with deadly accuracy and it's not putting 6+ hits onto whatever it wants all the time, either.
As I've said earlier, anyone want to argue the finer points of the Heldrake, I'd like to see some emperical evidence besides the collective sigh of relief when someone pulls a stick out of someone elses rear armor. As it has been mentioned again and again, Chaos had exactly ONE good unit to combat the overly good codex's and units we're up agianst which include Riptides, Buffmanders, Wraithknights, etc. Sorry ya'll were getting cold sweats over the dragon, but that's all we bloody got! DEAL WITH IT THE SAME WAY YOU ARE DEMANDING WE DEAL WITH THIS CHANGE AND MAYBE THE RESPECT WILL LAST LONGER.
Fact of the matter is, perhaps the loyalists+ should've been more creative with the greater armory they have instead of demanding that Chaos stay under its boot heels by nerfing every decent thing we get, and that includes FMC's as well. Tell me something...what big hit did the Space Marines take again? I heard something about Vendetta's. Do ya'll have hull mounted weapons now too? Did they take away your hover? Maybe your assault marines cost an arm and a leg now? Did they take away your ability to barrage with Thunderfire cannons because we have no barrage period. And no sky fire. No monster hunters. No scouts, no infiltraters, no snipers.
Oh, but at least we got our Heldrakes neck broke. Nub.
Just curious, do you randomly shout bits of what you're saying to people in real life, or is it just something you reserve for us poor souls on the Internet?
As you bring up matters of respect, you may find that posting your thoughts in calm, well thought out manner will earn you more, because, in all honesty your posting style right now comes across like an over caffeinated toddler, and it's undermining your credibility.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Automatically Appended Next Post: TheRedWingArmada - Yeah, exploding Drake with LC.. 6+ to hit, 4+ to pen, 6+ to explode, but 5+ save for enemy...do the math, you cant relly on this...(its not even 1% for one lascannon) - so yes, chaos should stop crying because this is crying, nothing more. Its without reason or thinking.
Not to mention that Helldrake was better than "EVERY OTHER FLIER OUT THERE" (quoting you).
He was specifically talking about fliers with TL lascannons. So 3+ rerollable to hit, not 6+. Doesn't make the odds wonderful, but much better.
The Vendetta, pre-AM, was hands down the best flyer around. With AM, it's still good (still the best imo), but they did that by upping the points cost and dropping transport capacity. This FAQ took what made the heldrake great and put it back to mediocre. If the rest of the codex were a bit more competitive, I doubt we'd be hearing as many complaints.
I play Space Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Astra Militarum, Militarum Tempestus, Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Orks, Adepta Sororitas, 'Nids, Necrons, Tau and Grey Knights.
Solomongrundy wrote: I only have one Heldrake, and didn't have a chance to use it when it was cheese. I still want to use it, but hoping its not as bad as some have said. I am still looking forward to using it and seeing how it fairs now. I'm glad to see multiple points of views here.
Lol, Drake is not bad at all! This is all just a nerdrage from players feeling butthurt...helldrake really was one of the most OP things in wh40k and it really needed to be toned down. After this, there is hope that other OP units will also one day be more balanced. Hope its soon, since the game is anything but balanced in its current state.
Automatically Appended Next Post: TheRedWingArmada - Yeah, exploding Drake with LC.. 6+ to hit, 4+ to pen, 6+ to explode, but 5+ save for enemy...do the math, you cant relly on this...(its not even 1% for one lascannon) - so yes, chaos should stop crying because this is crying, nothing more. Its without reason or thinking.
Not to mention that Helldrake was better than "EVERY OTHER FLIER OUT THERE" (quoting you).
So your fliers all have BS 1 then, huh? Because you're smoking crack if your hitting on 6's and not on the ground, which is what I was talking about. And then Str 10(?) for Laz Cannon, so you Pen on 3's since Laz is AP2 and THEN the 5++, which is about a 1 in 3 to roll. So...you know....do the math...
And again, until the Heldrake either shoots four weapons in one go, drops bombs and missiles or can transport, it doesn't come close to reaching the apex levels of other fliers. You're biggest beef is that there is fire from the sky that roasts that common 3+ armor save and doesn't give you cover. No. Heldrake isn't better than Vendetta, or Cron-Air or take your pick. It was the Best Option in the Chaos Codex. Not the entire damn game and damn sure not while 3 Riptides are Skyfiring like they're shooting at the Jetsons. Sorry, but your argument does not hold up to reality.
Did all of the anti-Heldrake people forget "EXPLODE" is still a thing? Yeah, we get the same invuln save all our daemons do and IWND is great if the Heldrake survives a round of "OMG KILL EET!" from loyalists and Tau, but you can still shoot the damn thing out of the air with a well placed Lazcannon shot and since Loyalist fliers seem to have two TL Lazcannons at their disposal, plus another two batteries of wtf to shoot, they've got a good shot of bypassing all of the Heldrakes defenses before it can make its points back with the Baleflamer.
So this stupid argument that "Chaos should stop crying" can stop coming from non-Chaos players. EVERY OTHER FLIER OUT THERE, for utility purposes and army synchronicity, is better than the Heldrake PERIOD. The only reason you clowns are so afraid of the Iron Dragon in the first place is because it killed your precious infantry the way Tau kill infantry in turn 1.
The Heldrake is a solo-act, even when flying with other Heldrakes. It's a harasser and a support flier. It's not transporting troops with deadly accuracy and it's not putting 6+ hits onto whatever it wants all the time, either.
As I've said earlier, anyone want to argue the finer points of the Heldrake, I'd like to see some emperical evidence besides the collective sigh of relief when someone pulls a stick out of someone elses rear armor. As it has been mentioned again and again, Chaos had exactly ONE good unit to combat the overly good codex's and units we're up agianst which include Riptides, Buffmanders, Wraithknights, etc. Sorry ya'll were getting cold sweats over the dragon, but that's all we bloody got! DEAL WITH IT THE SAME WAY YOU ARE DEMANDING WE DEAL WITH THIS CHANGE AND MAYBE THE RESPECT WILL LAST LONGER.
Fact of the matter is, perhaps the loyalists+ should've been more creative with the greater armory they have instead of demanding that Chaos stay under its boot heels by nerfing every decent thing we get, and that includes FMC's as well. Tell me something...what big hit did the Space Marines take again? I heard something about Vendetta's. Do ya'll have hull mounted weapons now too? Did they take away your hover? Maybe your assault marines cost an arm and a leg now? Did they take away your ability to barrage with Thunderfire cannons because we have no barrage period. And no sky fire. No monster hunters. No scouts, no infiltraters, no snipers.
Oh, but at least we got our Heldrakes neck broke. Nub.
Just curious, do you randomly shout bits of what you're saying to people in real life, or is it just something you reserve for us poor souls on the Internet?
As you bring up matters of respect, you may find that posting your thoughts in calm, well thought out manner will earn you more, because, in all honesty your posting style right now comes across like an over caffeinated toddler, and it's undermining your credibility.
I know the rule of the internet is "OMG CAPS STOP YELLING AT ME! -hands over eyes and ears-" but I actually made it out of high school english, so while there are caps and they make you uncomfortable, I'd probably ask that you check for actual exclamation points. I'd argue there is a difference, like Caps lock means I want you to pay attention to something and an exclamation point might be the mark of "shouting" or hyperbole. Oh, but there is one of those toddler words (hyperbole) and I used caps before, so I'm sure you along with like mindeds will have blocked this out too, in favor of your own personal preferences and beliefs. But isn't that everyone, especially when the internet makes no effort to accurately convey emotion?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/04 14:22:13
"Well there's something I've been meaning to tell you about the college on the edge of the town. No one should ever go there. You know it's bad, bad, bad. It gets worse every school year, but man those freaking teachers are raaaaad! Yea-YEAH-yeah yeah." -Babycakes - China, Il.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/559359.page#6178253 <--Link to my CSM Army lists.
The heldrake was released without its weapon on a turret, and it was considered good.
Now it is in the same position as when it started, but apparently has become a terrible unit.
It was good before, and it is still good now, it just requires more thought and can be countered like most fliers can, with maneuvering.
Having a flyer which could hit any target in a 40 inch radius was a little op, especially when it ignores cover and wounds most targets on a 2+.
Everyone here will agree that C:SM needs buffing, however the heldrake was at the other end of the scale and needed bringing down as did the vendetta.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/04 14:53:27
Twin-lascannon with skyfire has a 4.1% chance to explode a helldrake. 3/4 hits, 1/2 pen, 1/6 explode, 2/3 fail invul.
With 3 shots from each vendetta, it's an 11.9% chance of getting 1 or more explodes (with the extras being wasted)
Drakes are likely to die the same where they always did, hull points being stripped.
IMO, drakes should be used like all the other vehicles, in saturation. Run drakes with a landraider /w terminators, a vindicator or two, and another tank (maxed armor). Add in a Pair of daemon princes with wings as well, and just overwhelm your opponents ability to kill armor.
Big Blind Bill wrote: The heldrake was released without its weapon on a turret, and it was considered good.
Now it is in the same position as when it started, but apparently has become a terrible unit.
It was good before, and it is still good now, it just requires more thought and can be countered like most fliers can, with maneuvering.
Having a flyer which could hit any target in a 40 inch radius was a little op, especially when it ignores cover and wounds most targets on a 2+.
Everyone here will agree that C:SM needs buffing, however the heldrake was at the over end of the scale and needed bringing down as did the vendetta.
It is terrible in comparison to having a turret. I agree it was a little OP, but wouldn't a 180 or 90 degree arc have worked for that. That said, it is still a good unit.
@TheRedWingArmadaMade: lascannons are S9, not S10, so penning on 4+ was correct.
I play Space Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Astra Militarum, Militarum Tempestus, Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Orks, Adepta Sororitas, 'Nids, Necrons, Tau and Grey Knights.
@TheRedWingArmadaMade: you asked what was taken of loyalist, here are some examples :
1) The main competitive SM list was a biker list which now does not have any cover save except when they forgo their shooting,
2) Another competitive list was devstar which is hurt with less reliable prescience and ignore cover as well as the change on the way you run multiple weapons shooting from a unit (like having a missile launcher does not extend the range of your gravguns for instance),
3) For AM, the vendetta was nerfed(price increase, cant carry veterans anymore), as well as the hydra (which was already crap) in terms of AA.
So yes the helldrake was hugely nerfed, yes it was OP before.
Was it nerfed too much, i think so as well (the nerf to VS is already quite hard but necessary)
The Vendetta, pre-AM, was hands down the best flyer around. With AM, it's still good (still the best imo), but they did that by upping the points cost and dropping transport capacity. This FAQ took what made the heldrake great and put it back to mediocre. If the rest of the codex were a bit more competitive, I doubt we'd be hearing as many complaints.
Pre-AM Vendetta was the best AT around, it was OP and needed to tone down - quest completed. Now I dont see vendettas around me at all. Players i know replaced it with Lemans and LC blobs (which will be replaced again, because there is now not that cheesy prescience anymore). Helldrake has always been the best flyer overall because of its ability to destroy light vehicles (mostly transports) and in the same turn grill the transported soldiers or just burn the marines on foot. All that with IWND and 5+ invul and 360 degree firearc AND torrent rule AND ignoring the shake/stunned AND his bonus rule (one use only, wounding and pene reroll)...no wonder we have seen armies on tournaments based on helldrakes...
And since you are saying it was "a little OP" I see you are clearly somehow biased...it was not little, not at all...
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/06/04 15:21:07
Solomongrundy wrote: Since it seems that the Heldrake is no longer one of the best flyers in the game.
Not "one of" no. It's the best flyer in the game. It was unquestionably the best by miles before. Now it's merely the best.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
I know the rule of the internet is "OMG CAPS STOP YELLING AT ME! -hands over eyes and ears-" but I actually made it out of high school english, so while there are caps and they make you uncomfortable, I'd probably ask that you check for actual exclamation points. I'd argue there is a difference, like Caps lock means I want you to pay attention to something and an exclamation point might be the mark of "shouting" or hyperbole. Oh, but there is one of those toddler words (hyperbole) and I used caps before, so I'm sure you along with like mindeds will have blocked this out too, in favor of your own personal preferences and beliefs. But isn't that everyone, especially when the internet makes no effort to accurately convey emotion?
Dakka Posting Rules wrote:Please remember that posting and reading online is a visual format and as such the spelling, grammar and look of your posts is the only way others understand what you are saying. Therefore, in order to be polite, all users are expected to make an effort to use proper spelling, grammar and punctuation and should refrain from using internet shorthand or other distracting methods of writing, such as writing a post completely bolded, with capital letters, in a strange color, etc.
You're free to take what I said on board or not dude, but you're coming across as a ranty, frothing nerd rager. I'm sure that's not what you're trying to do, so might I suggest using italics for emphasis, rather than caps?
I'm just trying to offer some friendly guidance, because your posting seems to have already attracted a Mod warning in the other CSM thread you were participating in (along with a couple of other posters) and your language choice and general demeanour is perhaps coming across as more aggressive than perhaps you realise, and breaking rule 1 is the quickest way to a Dakka holiday I know of.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Then I'll end my biased opinion exactly where I started it: My biggest beef with the nerf on Heldrake isn't VS or anything like that. It's the 45* firing arc. At the very minimum, it should be 180. So it still can't roast troops that it cracked open from Transports, but it can still get a decent shot off. The 45* arc is too much, especially for the Hades Autocannon.
Edit: And to whoever about whatever rule 1 and other post? Not me that started the mod wagon, nor was it any of my posts that got modded, as far as I know. I have received no warnings. Etc. etc. etc. What you are referring to is someone who came into that thread and started trolling Toy Story. I imagine others got onto either me or him, I dunno, because mod stepped in and as far as me and the other assumed party involved, I blocked him on my own because a moderator had stepped in. Best not to tempt fate. As for me "sounding aggressive," I've apparently had "that problem" all my life and what I realized is it wasn't "my problem" as much as it was everyone elses. I'm comfortable with the way I communicate and can find examples in my life going both ways, but ultimately its not up to me what someone else reads out of what I post. Otherwise, I'd have to tailor a message 500 times plus to make sure I didn't make anyone feel "uncomfortable" or "offend anyone." Screw that noise.
Like when the cops show up at your house and ask "Is everyone ok, we heard yelling," and you have to explain that your kids were having a video game tournament, and then the most ridiculous double-standard arises "It's ok to have yelling, just not so much and as long as everyone is ok." So basically, they'll show up any time anyone feels "uncomfortable" about something. 9 billion people on the planet, and I've gotta worry about what someone thinks about caps lock, which by the way = CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL!!!
And yes, I do use my words, as I was raised to do. In sentence structures and sometimes paragraph form. I'd think out of most of the internet crowd, I'm about as least internet as there is. Anyone else have a Twitter account that communicates in hashtags only? Because I don't.
In short, tl dr.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/04 15:18:16
"Well there's something I've been meaning to tell you about the college on the edge of the town. No one should ever go there. You know it's bad, bad, bad. It gets worse every school year, but man those freaking teachers are raaaaad! Yea-YEAH-yeah yeah." -Babycakes - China, Il.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/559359.page#6178253 <--Link to my CSM Army lists.
Las cannons also aren't strength 10. Not sure where that idea came from. Or why vendettas and space marines were brought up in the same go, because marines don't have vendettas.
They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear.
Big Blind Bill wrote: The heldrake was released without its weapon on a turret, and it was considered good.
Now it is in the same position as when it started, but apparently has become a terrible unit.
It was good before, and it is still good now, it just requires more thought and can be countered like most fliers can, with maneuvering.
Having a flyer which could hit any target in a 40 inch radius was a little op, especially when it ignores cover and wounds most targets on a 2+.
Everyone here will agree that C:SM needs buffing, however the heldrake was at the over end of the scale and needed bringing down as did the vendetta.
It was solid before the turret faq, not as great as some seem to remember. It was also faq'ed pretty early on; I don't recall the exact date but I have the FAQ from April '13 and it wasn't new (magenta) in that one. The game has changed since then. Most codices were released after the turret faq, many of which increased their armies power dramatically. So the broken record of 'it was fine before' isn't really applicable. So it was somewhat powerful (not OTT by any means) when it wasn't a turret at first, but since then CD, SM, Eldar, Tau, and AM have all seen codex releases that increased their ability to kill infantry. Additionally things like inquisition and knights have further upped the power level of the game. The turret mounted heldrake fits right in with the current game even if it was overpowered when it was first faq'd, the hull mounted one is simply too 'meh.'
Also, even if you assume it was too powerful and nerf it, it hurts the codex even for friendly level games. The codex has some undeniably stinky units. Having one or two above average power units in the codex allows one to take the weaker units as well without being super handicapped. A mix of powerful and weaker units is good for variety. If you only have weaker units and fairly balanced units in your codex, you simply won't get to use the weaker ones very much as they will make even friendly games too lopsided.
TheRedWingArmada wrote: Then I'll end my biased opinion exactly where I started it: My biggest beef with the nerf on Heldrake isn't VS or anything like that. It's the 45* firing arc. At the very minimum, it should be 180. So it still can't roast troops that it cracked open from Transports, but it can still get a decent shot off. The 45* arc is too much, especially for the Hades Autocannon.
And I'll respond with what I started with.
The Heldrake is still a good unit. It has lost "easy mode" and those that have been using it with a turret will probably have to rethink how they employ it.
It now needs support from other units, planning in advance and perhaps using in concert with other Heldrakes rather than in isolation.
It is a shame that the CSM book isn't blessed with a huge variety of strong units, but that doesn't justify making one unit much stronger than it should be, if you want to get upset, be upset at all the units that aren't competitively viable, rather than upset that one unit is now probably as strong as it should be.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/04 15:24:55
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
TheRedWingArmada wrote: Then I'll end my biased opinion exactly where I started it: My biggest beef with the nerf on Heldrake isn't VS or anything like that. It's the 45* firing arc. At the very minimum, it should be 180. So it still can't roast troops that it cracked open from Transports, but it can still get a decent shot off. The 45* arc is too much, especially for the Hades Autocannon.
This is not the opinion you have been posting however. The opinion which you have been putting forward in this thread is that C:SM is underpowered, and you are annoyed that GW took away one of your competitive toys whilst the imperials have so many.
I would say you are justified in being annoyed by the poor current state of C:SM, and certainly the nerf to the heldrake brings them down even more so.
However, if we viewed the heldrake from outside of C:SM alone, and from an overall view of 6th edition, it was clear to see that the heldrake was too powerful. Nothing else in the game could wreck half of the armies in the game so easily for such a low price.
C:SM for the entirety of 6th could have for all almost all intents and purposes have been renamed "Codex Heldrakes and friends". Outside of fluffy lists you would always see 1 or 2 heldrakes. This in itself was an injustice to C:SM as it took away from the diversity that makes many CSM armies so unique.
Nerfing the heldrake is a good thing for game balance. Whilst it does hurt CSM, it does make the game better overall. C:SM has a lot of problems, but using them to justify the existence of an overpowered unit is not much better. The whole codex needs an overhaul, not only one single game breaking unit. Try to find some more viable things in 7th edition until this happens. CSM still has some decent choices Maulerfiends are in a nice place right now, and rhinos are set to make a comeback.
obsidiankatana wrote: ...Or why vendettas and space marines were brought up in the same go, because marines don't have vendettas.
Well space marines and IG are BB sooooo...
So not the same army. People have suggested CSM ally with Daemons to be better, or traitor Guard, and were shot down for suggesting that allying fixes a broken codex. So suggesting that SM have an overpowered flyer because they can ally and take IG's is silly.
They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear.
obsidiankatana wrote: ...Or why vendettas and space marines were brought up in the same go, because marines don't have vendettas.
Well space marines and IG are BB sooooo...
So not the same army. People have suggested CSM ally with Daemons to be better, or traitor Guard, and were shot down for suggesting that allying fixes a broken codex. So suggesting that SM have an overpowered flyer because they can ally and take IG's is silly.
Well, BB is a far cry from Apocalyptic, especially now that BB are treated basically as if they were from the same codex. Not that CSM would know that since our only BB more like BB -1. Additionally, SM isn't a broken codex, it can use a sprinkling of IG for variety, support, and fluff. There's a difference between using allies, and using allies to prop up a failing codex. I don't recall if you were part of the "just use allies crowd" or not, but you'd think all the SM people saying that would be amicable to their own idea, or maybe what is good for the goose isn't good enough for the gander?
Well, BB is a far cry from Apocalyptic, especially now that BB are treated basically as if they were from the same codex. Not that CSM would know that since our only BB more like BB -1. Additionally, SM isn't a broken codex, it can use a sprinkling of IG for variety, support, and fluff. There's a difference between using allies, and using allies to prop up a failing codex. I don't recall if you were part of the "just use allies crowd" or not, but you'd think all the SM people saying that would be amicable to their own idea, or maybe what is good for the goose isn't good enough for the gander?
This seems to be a misconception with a lot of what I say. I don't think Chaos is the best in town. It's not that good a book, I get it. I've played it. I know. But the sky didn't spontaneously fall in 7th, and it's not leagues behind the loyalist book. Propping up a failing book with allies isn't a solution, but some people are trying to justify C: SM being strong because of units outsde C: SM. Which is as wrong as propping a failing book with allies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/04 18:19:36
They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear.
This seems to be a misconception with a lot of what I say. I don't think Chaos is the best in town. It's not that good a book, I get it. I've played it. I know. But the sky didn't spontaneously fall in 7th, and it's not leagues behind the loyalist book. Propping up a failing book with allies isn't a solution, but some people are trying to justify C: SM being strong because of units outsing C: SM. Which is as wrong as propping a failing book with allies.
Totally agree with you here, 7th didn't change all that much for CSM as whole. Its just that a new edition that nerfs one of the better units in an already mediocre book while not helping the underpowered units is understandably ill-received. That combined with a few other things (traitor guard being CtA is my strongest dislike of 7e) and you have reminded many chaos players that they've gotten yet another codex that isn't what they really wanted: A chaotic/traitor marine army with enough variety to represent different legions/warbands without being hilariously hamstrung by attempting to do so.
Ok, I'm done with this and all threads like this now. Especially with virtually three or four threads having the same discussions with the same people coming to the same damn conclusions. Actually, this thread reminded me why it took me so long to come back to Dakka for anything besides the pictures.
It's boiled down to players who play CSM's not being happy and then SM players telling them to shut up because we could just bite off of x, y, and z (including our mortal enemies C:SM). The insults could not get much worse at this point.
"One good unit shouldn't prop up a bad dex!" "Allie to make your bad dex better!" "Yeah I know IG is Come the Apocalypse and the Space Marines can ally with daemons, but come on! CSM + Daemons!"
"Oh you just wanna be more like C:SM, you WAAC/Try-Hard."
I think I'll just be happy with the fact I'll never see any of you at any of my games or clubs and write my own codex now. This is beyond nuts now. And for anyone who wants to tell me what my point is, I have a lot of points and the collection of them together is far more valid than, "We know it sucks for you, but it's great for the rest of us!"
So long and thanks for all the fish.
"Well there's something I've been meaning to tell you about the college on the edge of the town. No one should ever go there. You know it's bad, bad, bad. It gets worse every school year, but man those freaking teachers are raaaaad! Yea-YEAH-yeah yeah." -Babycakes - China, Il.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/559359.page#6178253 <--Link to my CSM Army lists.
Ah, people don't agree with you across multiple threads, so it can't be you, must be them.
*slowclap*
FWIW, I'm a Daemons player, just expanding into a small CSM allied force, with BA as my other army, so yes, technically SM, but a book that has away more problems currently than CSM.
I still think you've overreacted.
Well, actually, scratch that, not past tense, you're still overreacting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: With regard to the Heldrake, I posted this over in the general hull mounted thread in discussion, I'd be interested if anyone can argue a reason why this can't be done, otherwise, it makes hitting stuff much easier.
The model, if assembled officially, points it's gun roughly straight forwards and level. (Along the x axis)
People are assuming that the arc = x +/- 22.5 degrees.
Nothing says that the fire arc cannot be taken as x -45 degrees, meaning it cannot fire above itself at all, but can target 45 degrees down.
As you can see, 45 degrees vertically, no clarification that it has to be split evenly around the x axis.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/04 18:26:14
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
"One good unit shouldn't prop up a bad dex!" "Allie to make your bad dex better!" "Yeah I know IG is Come the Apocalypse and the Space Marines can ally with daemons, but come on! CSM + Daemons!"
"Oh you just wanna be more like C:SM, you WAAC/Try-Hard."
I don't think anybody said any of these things in the context you're taking them in.
They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear.
With regard to the Heldrake, I posted this over in the general hull mounted thread in discussion, I'd be interested if anyone can argue a reason why this can't be done, otherwise, it makes hitting stuff much easier.
The model, if assembled officially, points it's gun roughly straight forwards and level. (Along the x axis)
People are assuming that the arc = x +/- 22.5 degrees.
Nothing says that the fire arc cannot be taken as x -45 degrees, meaning it cannot fire above itself at all, but can target 45 degrees down.
Spoiler:
As you can see, 45 degrees vertically, no clarification that it has to be split evenly around the x axis.
I think you have to assume that when it says 45 degrees it means centered about the gun barrel axis. If you don't assume this then one center of the arc is no better than any other. If you want to pick a central axis 22.5 degrees below the gun barrel why not just choose an axis behind the heldrake so you can use it like before? The axis along the gun barrel is the only one that makes sense ruleswise. Honestly I wish they'd have left it turret and nerfed it some other way if they must. A fire breathing dragon that can't flame stuff it passes over is absurd. Additionally the hadesdrake didn't deserve the collateral damage.
With regard to the Heldrake, I posted this over in the general hull mounted thread in discussion, I'd be interested if anyone can argue a reason why this can't be done, otherwise, it makes hitting stuff much easier.
The model, if assembled officially, points it's gun roughly straight forwards and level. (Along the x axis)
People are assuming that the arc = x +/- 22.5 degrees.
Nothing says that the fire arc cannot be taken as x -45 degrees, meaning it cannot fire above itself at all, but can target 45 degrees down.
Spoiler:
As you can see, 45 degrees vertically, no clarification that it has to be split evenly around the x axis.
I think you have to assume that when it says 45 degrees it means centered about the gun barrel axis. If you don't assume this then one center of the arc is no better than any other. If you want to pick a central axis 22.5 degrees below the gun barrel why not just choose an axis behind the heldrake so you can use it like before? The axis along the gun barrel is the only one that makes sense ruleswise. Honestly I wish they'd have left it turret and nerfed it some other way if they must. A fire breathing dragon that can't flame stuff it passes over is absurd. Additionally the hadesdrake didn't deserve the collateral damage.
The x axis is the horizontal, a flat level line running through the model nose to tail, and extending infinitely in both directions. You are told, explicitly, to measure range and LOS from the gun barrel, you must do this, so no, you can't just pick any point and use it like before.
You use the word "assume" several times in your response, which is telling, because you can assume things, but not necessarily be correct. Taking a 45 degree fire arc starting with level and moving down not only satisfies RAW, as far as I can see, but makes sense fluff wise, and makes the Heldrake function more like people think it should.
There is no stipulation that any part of the arc has to be above the gun, there is no stipulation that the arc has to be centred on the barrel, merely 45 degrees vertical and horizontal, which my idea complies with.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/04 19:18:47
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
The Vendetta, pre-AM, was hands down the best flyer around. With AM, it's still good (still the best imo), but they did that by upping the points cost and dropping transport capacity. This FAQ took what made the heldrake great and put it back to mediocre. If the rest of the codex were a bit more competitive, I doubt we'd be hearing as many complaints.
Pre-AM Vendetta was the best AT around, it was OP and needed to tone down - quest completed. Now I dont see vendettas around me at all. Players i know replaced it with Lemans and LC blobs (which will be replaced again, because there is now not that cheesy prescience anymore). Helldrake has always been the best flyer overall because of its ability to destroy light vehicles (mostly transports) and in the same turn grill the transported soldiers or just burn the marines on foot. All that with IWND and 5+ invul and 360 degree firearc AND torrent rule AND ignoring the shake/stunned AND his bonus rule (one use only, wounding and pene reroll)...no wonder we have seen armies on tournaments based on helldrakes...
And since you are saying it was "a little OP" I see you are clearly somehow biased...it was not little, not at all...
I'm biased both ways. I understand how OP it is, but there's a reason that it is Codex: Hellturkey.
I'm both glad and upset it got nerfed. It did need it, but it is a blow to a struggling codex. Personally, I wish they'd gone with a 90 degree arc.
As for seeing tournament armies based on Helldrakes, what else are CSM supposed to base a competitive army on?
I play Space Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Astra Militarum, Militarum Tempestus, Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Orks, Adepta Sororitas, 'Nids, Necrons, Tau and Grey Knights.
