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 PhillyT wrote:

 Verstaka wrote:
Quick numbers crunch then for a comparison between the Loyalist and Traitor Legion's numbers.

There's 1,000 chapters and according to the Codex Astartes 1,000 marines per Chapter. Some have more some have less but this equates to roughly 1,000,000 marines.

Now, I just checked Lexicanum, the old Legions had the numbers to equate to easily 2,000,000 marines pre-heresy. Assuming half became traitor and during the Heresy atleast half died we're left with about 500,000 marines for the powers of Chaos.

Now as the Eye of Terror is weird with time and its progression every single one of those marines is alive today unless he has died on the battlefield or screwed over by the gods. Throw in the fact that you always have marines trickling over and the warbands using stolen geneseed to grow new troops it's safe to say that they do slowly build up their numbers.

All in all I'd speculate that the Ruinous Powers either have a similar or slightly larger amount of marines available to them than the Imperium. The only reason this hasn't become an issue is getting out of the Eye of Terror is a tricky feat so only handfuls of warbands can get out at a time...unless your Abbadon. Then you just pay a bulk toll fee and get a metric !@#$ ton of marines through no problem to launch the umpteenth Black Crusade.

And to answer the OP between the infighting, wars, Chaos being fickle, and the Warp just being a dangerous place for any mortal I'd say maybe a few thousand have survived to the 41st Millenium or are interred in Dreadnoughts (or whatever they're called now)

How, if 500,000 went into the eye, would they have gained double that to be equal or greater than the total number of loyalists?

The GW Grimdark answer is more than the loyalist.

The "realistic" answer would be significantly less than the loyalists.

In either case, the loyalist marines would most likely halt the traitors in a full on pitched battle. The problem there is that they cannot throw their full numbers at chaos because they are stretched too thin.

Like all the fluff, the Imperium is likely the most powerful group in total, but since literally everyone else is ripping into them from all directions, they can never apply all that power to truly overcome the enemies.

Chaos isn't restricted by dogma or abhorrence of certain scientific procedures. Indeed they should be far greater in number from cloning, breeding programs, Chaos magic, occasional chapters turning traitor and dumping fresh resources into the Eye, and esoteric project like Honsou's Iron Wombs.

Yet there are as many or more stories or claims of whole regions of the warp being torn to shreds, mutation into something other than marines, and failed attempts to create more marines.

Like I said, pro-chaos grim dark implies an unstoppable horde that would sweep the galaxy if unified (heard that one before? Tyranids, orks, Space Marines, etc.).

Regular Grimdark - Chaos is a messed up nasty place where chaos marines are chewed up and spit out as often as a successfully created marine survives the process and joins the ranks.

Forget of course that the traitor legions were crushed and battered as they fled to the Eye.

But really, the whole limit on regular marines is an arbitrary choice. Terra could produce far more marines than currently exist if they so chose.

 PhillyT wrote:
Yet there are as many or more stories or claims of whole regions of the warp being torn to shreds, mutation into something other than marines, and failed attempts to create more marines.

Like I said, pro-chaos grim dark implies an unstoppable horde that would sweep the galaxy if unified (heard that one before? Tyranids, orks, Space Marines, etc.).

Regular Grimdark - Chaos is a messed up nasty place where chaos marines are chewed up and spit out as often as a successfully created marine survives the process and joins the ranks.

Forget of course that the traitor legions were crushed and battered as they fled to the Eye.

But really, the whole limit on regular marines is an arbitrary choice. Terra could produce far more marines than currently exist if they so chose.

Except they won't ever, as it is near impossible for the Imperium to act against entrenched dogma. Especially that which was penned by one of the primarchs.

Correct, though they have done large scale foundlings in the past.

I am just saying the number fluctuates depending on what the writer wants to induce in the reader.

If he wants the ominous threat, he makes it seem like the Warp is a peaceful meadow where marines multiply at silly rates.

If he wants chaos and the warp to seem capricious and dangerous, then marines are residents but it isn't an easy existence.

Don't the legions and warbands fight amongst themselves in the eye of terror? For territory and resources.

Would this not reduce their numbers more?

They do.

Thats my point. The idea that the legions could do anything but remain at a stable population level (replacing those lost in battle with new marines) strains believability considering what we know about the warp, chaos, and the conflicts they get involved in.

Don't forget that the traitor legion have fabius and he can clone space marines.

In the Word Bearers trilogy they estimate the Black Legion at 10x the numbers of the WB, who are by no means a small legion themselves.

They may be adding but infighting, other warp residents, battles for patron gods /deamons will reduce numbers.

They can Marshall in the warp, live but its no picknick, no easy life.

There will be a constant flow of recruits so depending on who turned the character will change, the legions will still jhace members left but not like 10,000 years ago when it was pure legions.

PhillyT wrote:They do.

Thats my point. The idea that the legions could do anything but remain at a stable population level (replacing those lost in battle with new marines) strains believability considering what we know about the warp, chaos, and the conflicts they get involved in.

Ironclad Warlord wrote: Don't forget that the traitor legion have fabius and he can clone space marines.

No. No clones.



Lets return to the most likely order of Events:

- Mankind created soldiery and in the ages before the IoM they altered them too.
- the Emperor used known tech to forge his Thunderwarriors.
- those Thunderwarriors were very capable, but not stable.
- the Emperor planned to re-conquer the realms of Man with more stable troops led by his Generals.
- Emperor ( and scientists ) created Primarchs and Space Marine Legions.
- the bodyguard of the Emperor is based on a different process than Space Marines.
- thus Big E is to "go to" source for Astartes and other creations like them.

The size of a Legion wasn't unlimited:

- the great crusade also didn't run without great casualties, the Legions had to increase the speed of their recrutement to keep their fighting strength, endangering all around quality,
- what the Emperor offered to Corax to rebuild his Legion after Istvaan was very potent material
- the Legions however diluted the creation of their Marines with add ons.
- thus the complicated process isn't as efficient as it could be.
- to provide enoughTroops , the Imperial Army filled the gaps the Legions couldn't,
- the Heresy split the forces of the Imperium in half.

And the influence of the company itself:

- Games Workshop used a size of a Legion of 10000 Astartes once. Currently the HH series gives us a varied picture of Legions of 80000 - 250000 Astartes.
- the HH existed before GW move on from 10000 per Legio. So their incapability to create believable scale had a series adapt to higher numbers.

How many is left depends:

- if we start from the HH, 20 Legions of ~ 150000 > 3000000 Astartes maybe.
- put those 3000000 through internal purges, still active campaigns against non-compliant worlds and xeno, a civil war of titanic scale and the issues to keep the size of active members of a Legion up exist too....
- can't replace everything.

- the loyalists had 10000 years to rebuild. But didn't return to the old days even with the best organizators available, the Ultramarines.
- chaos forces fled into the eye. After beeing cleansed off of the Holds they had, hunted whilst retreating to the realm of their new masters.
- the number of Marines availabe at 2nd founding isn't perfectly clear. Codex GK showed 400+ chapters, SM codices had 23+ Ultramarine successors, etc
- the number of traitors hiding in the Eye after their asses got kicked off of Terra isn't mentioned as far as I know.

Personally I'd go with:

- a high casuality rate, Legions are no more.
- complicated process involved, gene-seed malfunctions if tainted, humans still neccessary to create Astartes.
- Traitor Legions diminished to a few thousand if lucky.

yes, am not fond of the respawn idea some people may have after playing too many PC/Video-games. Because to me its a Galaxy filled with normal creatures and the majority of chaos is 08/15 traitors like cultists and mutants. CSM fit the role of the "mythical beast" RPG offer IMO.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Don't forget that the traitor legion have fabius and he can clone space marines.

Unstabe, broken, and short lived space marines with no means of gaining the fighting ability of actual marines due to their short terms of service.

Of the original traitors, I'd say about 1/10th are left but that doesn't mean that the legions can't recruit. The only corrupted-beyond-use Geneseed are the Death Guard, who rarely die, and the Thousand Sons, who can just be brought back. All the other traitor legion Geneseed seems to work well. There are also other methods such as necromancy, which most sorcerers are capable of, and the various cloning methods.

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
Of the original traitors, I'd say about 1/10th are left but that doesn't mean that the legions can't recruit. The only corrupted-beyond-use Geneseed are the Death Guard, who rarely die, and the Thousand Sons, who can just be brought back. All the other traitor legion Geneseed seems to work well. There are also other methods such as necromancy, which most sorcerers are capable of, and the various cloning methods.

I'm pretty sure not all of the death gaurd are plague marines, and they still recruit traitors, it takes some magic to become a plague marine.

DOOMONYOU wrote:
Don't the legions and warbands fight amongst themselves in the eye of terror? For territory and resources.

Would this not reduce their numbers more?

Dont the loyalists fight orks, eldar, necrons, 'nids, and tau. Wouldnt this reduce their numbers as well?







Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
Of the original traitors, I'd say about 1/10th are left but that doesn't mean that the legions can't recruit. The only corrupted-beyond-use Geneseed are the Death Guard, who rarely die, and the Thousand Sons, who can just be brought back. All the other traitor legion Geneseed seems to work well. There are also other methods such as necromancy, which most sorcerers are capable of, and the various cloning methods.

yup

+ loyalist chapters also keep turning traitor.


Traitor marines never come back to become loyalist.

 Toastaster wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
Of the original traitors, I'd say about 1/10th are left but that doesn't mean that the legions can't recruit. The only corrupted-beyond-use Geneseed are the Death Guard, who rarely die, and the Thousand Sons, who can just be brought back. All the other traitor legion Geneseed seems to work well. There are also other methods such as necromancy, which most sorcerers are capable of, and the various cloning methods.

I'm pretty sure not all of the death gaurd are plague marines, and they still recruit traitors, it takes some magic to become a plague marine.

Nope. All of the Death Guard were turned into plague marines by the destroyer virus. And though they do recruit traitors they aren't part of the actual legion. Their more like mercenaries.

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:

 Toastaster wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
Of the original traitors, I'd say about 1/10th are left but that doesn't mean that the legions can't recruit. The only corrupted-beyond-use Geneseed are the Death Guard, who rarely die, and the Thousand Sons, who can just be brought back. All the other traitor legion Geneseed seems to work well. There are also other methods such as necromancy, which most sorcerers are capable of, and the various cloning methods.

I'm pretty sure not all of the death gaurd are plague marines, and they still recruit traitors, it takes some magic to become a plague marine.

Nope. All of the Death Guard were turned into plague marines by the destroyer virus. And though they do recruit traitors they aren't part of the actual legion. Their more like mercenaries.

Ah, I'm not so clear with Death Guard fluff so you'll have to forgive me, but I though that only the Marines who go trapped in the warp with Typhus on the Terminus Est became Plague Marines and since then you have to prove you're devoted to Mortarion or the Black Legion if you wanted to become a Plague Marine?