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What's the difference between friendly and championship?

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
What's the difference between friendly and championship?

From the Original Post:

40K Championships Format: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/06/10/bay-area-open-2014-warhammer-40000-championships-format/
40K Friendly Format: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/bay-area-open-warhammer-40000-friendly-event/

w00t! Just hit half sold out for the 40K Championships! Nice one, this is going to be awesome!

@Red Corsair

No limit, we have plenty of space, but as a general guideline we expect 20-40 players in the Friendly.

@Fasight

As Brother Erekose pointed out (and thanks for doing that) the Championships is a competitive event with restrictions placed on the normal army building rules to try and provide a level playing field for competitive 40K. This event is 1850, 6 rounds with the spirit of the event to be to try to win games in a fair spirited competition. Awards are oriented around winning games, doing the best with a particular faction and having a really beautiful army.

The 40K Friendly is a laid back event with total freedom in list building at a 2K point limit. The only guideline is that your list must have a clear theme and be built with the intent to be fun to play with and play against. Each list is TO approved in advance. This event is 2K points, 4 rounds with longer round times. The spirit of the event is cooperative, laid back, fun and cinematic games. Awards are oriented around cool themed lists, funny in-game moments, beautiful modeling and painting and team work.

The intent is to provide something fun and exciting for players that like competition and those that prefer to enjoy the spectacle of miniatures gaming without worrying about winning or losing games.

I really appreciate your responses! Thanks. Count me in for the Competitive. I will make a statement that Tau are still viable and can take on the worst of Daemon hordes... hopefully

Thanks for putting on BAO guys

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
I really appreciate your responses! Thanks. Count me in for the Competitive. I will make a statement that Tau are still viable and can take on the worst of Daemon hordes... hopefully

Thanks for putting on BAO guys

Daemon hordes, sure...but what about the ever grinding treads of the Imperial Guard?

After a few games of spamming invisibility, I can't see how invisibility is good for the game. The invisible unit can pretty much do whatever it wants lol...

Is there going to be, or are there any plans to address how powerful and potentially game-breaking invisibility can be?

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
I really appreciate your responses! Thanks. Count me in for the Competitive. I will make a statement that Tau are still viable and can take on the worst of Daemon hordes... hopefully

Thanks for putting on BAO guys

See you there!

@Mortetvie

The vote to nerf Invisibility came out as a No by 4 votes (out of over 200 responses). So, Invis will be played RAW this event, and we will reassess after the event to see if it needs to be changed for the LVO.

 tomjoad wrote:

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
I really appreciate your responses! Thanks. Count me in for the Competitive. I will make a statement that Tau are still viable and can take on the worst of Daemon hordes... hopefully

Thanks for putting on BAO guys

Daemon hordes, sure...but what about the ever grinding treads of the Imperial Guard?

I play Tau, with access to a lot of high strength low AP guns that can be plastered on Crisis Suits. I would love to blow up your tanks at the tournament
Overall though. I think that AM has gotten a little better with 7th. I think that with the crazy allies chart (not necessarily used for the BAO, but in general) there can be some great combos, especially with the armies of the imperium all being bros.

@Reecius

Are you going to be releasing missions for the Competitive tournament pre the date of BAO? Or should I just expect to get a packet to browse upon arriving?

@Farsight

We are finishing up play-testing them as I type this! We have gotten a lot of feedback and so far everyone like them.

We are doing the following:

Primary Mission: Eternal War mission, modified slightly form the book usually to make sure the objectives are evenly distributed around the board, etc.

Secondary mission: Modified Maelstrom Mission. These are changed quite a bit from the book to be a lot simpler and to never have an objective that is impossible to get. We don't use cards but each mission has a custom chart that both players roll on to determine their turn by turn objectives. We're taking elements of the progressive or asymmetrical missions a lot of events are using. So far, everyone has really enjoyed them and felt they helped to balance out the crazier builds in the game.

The chart and everything you need to use these is in the mission packet, so you won't need cards or anything, just open your player pack and be good to go!

Tertiary missions are the book bonus points: first blood, linebreaker, slay the warlord.


Our goal is to have the missions up on the site for everyone to read by next week. We just want to have a lot of people play through them first to be sure that they are worded clearly and there are no loopholes or crummy aspects to any of the missions.

Okie dokie! I predict eldar wave serpent spam with psyker spam for invisibility and beast star/baron allies galore lol.

 mortetvie wrote:
Okie dokie! I predict eldar wave serpent spam with psyker spam for invisibility and beast star/baron allies galore lol.

You think that Eldar need Invisibility to win?

Here is my prediction: An Eldar player will win who didn't bother wasting points trying to get Invisibility.

 Blackmoor wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:
Okie dokie! I predict eldar wave serpent spam with psyker spam for invisibility and beast star/baron allies galore lol.

You think that Eldar need Invisibility to win?

Here is my prediction: An Eldar player will win who didn't bother wasting points trying to get Invisibility.

And here is my prediction:


An Eldar player won't win....


....because I won't be running Eldar there. Hahahahahaha

I think the BAO nerf of 2+ rerolls to 2+/4+ was the best thing that happened to 6th edition tournament play.

In 7th ed invisibility is also the problem, and the 2+ 4+ nerf has made it worse. If neither is nerfed then they can tarpit each other, but if only 1 is nerfed then it turns the other into an unchecked monster.

I think nerfing both or playing both as is are both viable options, but nerfing 1 without nerfing the other will create a stale and predictable meta dominated by the one that isn't nerfed.

Eldar don't *need* invisibility to win but it sure makes it easier! CSM on the other hand...

Well, we voted and it is what it is at this point. We aren't changing course, now.

Remember, the missions REALLY alter the normal flow of the game and make mobility and flexibility critical. We will be posting videos soon, but the play test feedback has been really positive. Make an army to win the mission is my advice.

And, after the BAO, if Invisibility really turns out to be that bad, when we decide what to do for the LVO we will change it. At least this way we get a live fire test of it in a tournament environment.

@Jy2

So cocky, hahaha, I love it!

 schadenfreude wrote:
I think the BAO nerf of 2+ rerolls to 2+/4+ was the best thing that happened to 6th edition tournament play.

In 7th ed invisibility is also the problem, and the 2+ 4+ nerf has made it worse. If neither is nerfed then they can tarpit each other, but if only 1 is nerfed then it turns the other into an unchecked monster.

I think nerfing both or playing both as is are both viable options, but nerfing 1 without nerfing the other will create a stale and predictable meta dominated by the one that isn't nerfed.

Chance to kill a Jetbike with a 2+/4+ save

With a Bolter:
With Fortune= 2.7%
With Invisibility=1.38%

With WS4 Str 4 in assault:
With Fortune= 2.08%
With Invisibility=1.38%

Note: Chance to kill with a 2+/2+ is .92% with a bolter and .69% in assault.

You are right! Thank God we did not have invisibility last edition! Eldar would have been totally broken. [/sarcasm]

Oh, and everyone has access to it now, so you can counter invisible Eldar with your own Invisible squads. Not only that. but psychic powers have radically changes and they are not very good this edition.

I want to play all of the armies that are built around invisibility. I will show you that there is no protection from Mindstrike missiles, and that my bucket of Deny the Witch dice only has to block it once for you to regret thinking that it is a game-changer..

When it comes to Invisibility, I think the bigger thing (to me at least) more than just the "only hitting on 6's" is, is that Invisibility removes the option of using blast and template weapons against an "invisible" unit, which is not only counter-intuitive (as those are exactly the types of weapons you'd whip out to engage such a unit from any sort of realistic perspective), but also adds a whole new level of risk avoidance and nullification of enemy weapons beyond just "being hit only on 6's".

 Blackmoor wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
I think the BAO nerf of 2+ rerolls to 2+/4+ was the best thing that happened to 6th edition tournament play.

In 7th ed invisibility is also the problem, and the 2+ 4+ nerf has made it worse. If neither is nerfed then they can tarpit each other, but if only 1 is nerfed then it turns the other into an unchecked monster.

I think nerfing both or playing both as is are both viable options, but nerfing 1 without nerfing the other will create a stale and predictable meta dominated by the one that isn't nerfed.

Chance to kill a Jetbike with a 2+/4+ save

With a Bolter:
With Fortune= 2.7%
With Invisibility=1.38%

With WS4 Str 4 in assault:
With Fortune= 2.08%
With Invisibility=1.38%

Note: Chance to kill with a 2+/2+ is .92% with a bolter and .69% in assault.

You are right! Thank God we did not have invisibility last edition! Eldar would have been totally broken. [/sarcasm]

Oh, and everyone has access to it now, so you can counter invisible Eldar with your own Invisible squads. Not only that. but psychic powers have radically changes and they are not very good this edition.

I want to play all of the armies that are built around invisibility. I will show you that there is no protection from Mindstrike missiles, and that my bucket of Deny the Witch dice only has to block it once for you to regret thinking that it is a game-changer..

Jetbike against a S5 WS4 power axe with or without fortune 33% but with invisibility it's 8.3%
Jetbike against a S5 WS4 power axe with hatred or prescience=50% with or without fortune but with invisibility it's 20.3%

Jetbike being shot by BS4 ignore cover plasma with or without fortune=55% but with invisibility it's 11%
Jetbike being shot by TLBS4 ignore cover plasma with or without fortune=74% but with invisibility it's 25.5%

Fortune has more counters than invisibility. Mind strike missiles can't target an invisible unit but can lay into a unit with fortune.

The GK bucked of dice is probably only going to be 18 to 24 dice and can't overcome invisibility if 10 dice are used. Farseers can pretty much ignore perils if they save 1 extra power die for the ghost helm.

I can understand your logic that invisibility can help counter the fortune deathstars, but I think it will just result in the same units that used fortune switching to invisibility which is slightly less powerful but has far fewer counters.

My opinion still stands. 2++ rerolls and invisibility become an even bigger problem if only 1 of them is nerfed. Allowing both of them into a tournament means can they tarpit each other, or banning both might help, but only banning 1 will create problems.

You've also raid the good question is fortune as bad as invisibility and 2++ rerolls. If so perhaps that's a good reason to allow 2++ rerolls or find a way to nerf fortune. I think I'm starting to lean towards the allow everything camp because it's more simple than nerfing 3 power combos. The only thing I don't' currently like the idea of is nerfing 1 and not the other.

That being said the die is cast for the BAO and all of the decisions Reece had to make are very difficult because he's running the first major 7th ed tournament, but I think this discussion has a place here because the BAO is the guinea pig for 7th ed tournament play.

Mathhammer hurts my brain! But as was mentioned ad nauseam, invis will be what it is so it will be interesting to see if it will make a difference...

I agree that the main perk of invisibility is protection from blasts and template weapons... And other witchfires for that matter.

If I get the money to make it to BAO this year, I'll totally take a CSM list with a bazillion invisible units and be unstoppable! Mwuahahahahaha!

There is also a rules debate about gk null rods where a TO FAQ can create or destroy a counter to invis. GK one says the unit can not be affected by psychic powers in any way. Does that mean they ignore invisibility?

note the codex inquisition null rod has a very different wording.

 schadenfreude wrote:


Jetbike against a S5 WS4 power axe with or without fortune 33% but with invisibility it's 8.3%
Jetbike against a S5 WS4 power axe with hatred or prescience=50% with or without fortune but with invisibility it's 20.3%

When you are saying 2+ save you are talking about a seer council with a 4+ Inv save. So it is really:

Jetbike against a S5 WS4 power axe with fortune 8.3%
Jetbike against a S5 WS4 power axe with invisibility it's 5.5%

Not that big of a difference.

Jetbike against a S5 WS4 power axe with hatred or prescience=50% with or without fortune but with invisibility it's 20.3%

You can get into all kinds of scenarios of what each unit has, but it will get you nowhere. One thing that the Eldar have going for them is speed, and they get to pick the fights that they get into so they will not have a bad match-up.


Seer Council being shot by BS4 ignore cover plasma with fortune=13.8% but with invisibility it's 6.9%
Seer Council being shot by TLBS4 ignore cover plasma with fortune=18.5% but with invisibility it's 12.6%

My point is that it is not to much of a difference between the two even with a best case scenario. Want to see what Tau do when they hit with some markerlights?

Jetbike against an Ork Loota with fortune 4.6%
Jetbike against an Ork Loota with invisibility it's 4.6%

Fortune has more counters than invisibility. Mind strike missiles can't target an invisible unit but can lay into a unit with fortune.

Remember last edition when mindstrikes did nothing to Farseers? Also Fortune went off over 92% of the time and there was nothing you could do to stop Fortune from going off?

The GK bucked of dice is probably only going to be 18 to 24 dice and can't overcome invisibility if 10 dice are used. Farseers can pretty much ignore perils if they save 1 extra power die for the ghost helm.

You say that very casually like it is nothing, but 10 dice is the output of over 2 Farseers. That means that they have burned through a lot of their warp charges and they do not have many left. So with averages they will roll around 5, but sometimes they will have made 7 successes, and sometimes 3. If they have a lot of successes, good for them, I will just block all of their other powers. So what has all of those points invested in psychic powers done for that army? They got 1 invisible unit that I will ignore. When they do have a bad roll then I will counter that with my WCs and if it gets denyied that expensive Seer Council is not any tougher than a regular marine squad. Then they will have death rain down upon them.

Do you know what those 10 Warp Charges from 2 Farseers did for you last edition?

They could cast:
Fortune
Prescience
A couple of Guides for your Wraithknights
Misfortune

That being said the die is cast for the BAO and all of the decisions Reece had to make are very difficult because he's running the first major 7th ed tournament, but I think this discussion has a place here because the BAO is the guinea pig for 7th ed tournament play.

Psychic powers suck, and you just can't depend on them anymore. They often do not go off even if you roll a lot of dice, and they can be blocked. You just do not get as many powers off as you did 6th edition.

One last thing that you did not think about is that there is no guarantee that you will get invisibility. Not only that, but Telepathy sucks these days so you are going to get a lot of crappy powers with, or without it.

Oh, and one last, one last thing. That 2+ save is a psychic power. While you are worried about getting Invisibility off, I will just block that so you only have a 3+ save (and you will not use a lot of dice, or you will eat a perils). So let's do the math:

So it looks like this to me:

6th Edition (Febs LVO):
Grey Knight WS4 Strength 5 Power Weapon vs Fortune with a 2+/4+ save=2.7% to kill

7th Edition:
Grey Knight WS4 Strength 6 Power Weapon vs Invisibility with a 3+ save=6.9% to kill

Wait, aren't you saying that they are much harder to kill?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 schadenfreude wrote:
There is also a rules debate about gk null rods where a TO FAQ can create or destroy a counter to invis. GK one says the unit can not be affected by psychic powers in any way. Does that mean they ignore invisibility?

note the codex inquisition null rod has a very different wording.

As a GK player I would say no.

I was looking at it tonight to see if I could use it to counter Invisibility and I do not think it does. The GK codex is vague on the issue and it was an old FAQ that said that you could (it gave the example of it blocking the harlequin's Veil of Tears psychic power). That FAQ is long gone and now we have the precise wording in the Inquisitor codex that says that it does not block it.

 Blackmoor wrote:


Wait, aren't you saying that they are much harder to kill?

Sorry I was referring to units in general not the fully decked out seer council. That was tougher in 6th ed and are not as good in 7th because they can't spam all of their powers and the lvl 1 warlocks are very vulnerable to perils.

I think the more problematic unit will be beastpacks with 25 Khymerae, baron, and 2 farseers on bikes. S4 SW4 attacks averaged .083 against them with fortune but that's down to .054 in with invis. They have the option of clumping into a tighter formation because they have fleet baring a catastrophic and rare failure to cast telepathy. Unlike the poor seer council they don't lose much with the 7th ed transition while they gain a lot.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:


Wait, aren't you saying that they are much harder to kill?

Sorry I was referring to units in general not the fully decked out seer council. That was tougher in 6th ed and are not as good in 7th because they can't spam all of their powers and the lvl 1 warlocks are very vulnerable to perils.

I think the more problematic unit will be beastpacks with 25 Khymerae, baron, and 2 farseers on bikes. S4 SW4 attacks averaged .083 against them with fortune but that's down to .054 in with invis. They have the option of clumping into a tighter formation because they have fleet baring a catastrophic and rare failure to cast telepathy. Unlike the poor seer council they don't lose much with the 7th ed transition while they gain a lot.

With the Beastpack 2 Farseers is all they are getting. That means only 9-10 Warp Charges total on average to cast it (8-9 to hold one back for runes of warding). If they get a low dice roll for the random Warp Charges then they will have to get it off on 7-8 (holding none back for perils) and that is all they are doing that turn. They also might get it blocked with an army with a lot of Warp Charges.

Again. that is a huge difference between 6th edition when they can also cast another 4 very good psychic powers. The beast pack was also buffed by Prescience, Doom, and Misfortune, and they had Wraithknights with guide and other powers to throw around. That is a big hit to the whole army. Yes they still have a unit that is hard to kill, but they, and the units around them do not get the huge force multipliers that they did in 6th.

I think the way to go is Wave Serpents. They are fast, they are very durable, everything is always Twin Linked, they can shoot 60" with a gun that ignores cover, and they are an objective secured scoring unit. Wave Serpents always have their abilities, and they do not waste points on unreliable psychic powers.

But we will see in the coming months what will happen, and what armies come out on top. There is a good chance that the new Astro Militarium will be overlooked and be a formidable army.

 jy2 wrote:
An Eldar player won't win....
....because I won't be running Eldar there. Hahahahahaha

 mortetvie wrote:
If I get the money to make it to BAO this year, I'll totally take a CSM list with a bazillion invisible units and be unstoppable! Mwuahahahahaha!

Yay! Trash talk!

 jy2 wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:
Okie dokie! I predict eldar wave serpent spam with psyker spam for invisibility and beast star/baron allies galore lol.

You think that Eldar need Invisibility to win?

Here is my prediction: An Eldar player will win who didn't bother wasting points trying to get Invisibility.

And here is my prediction:


An Eldar player won't win....


....because I won't be running Eldar there. Hahahahahaha

Hahaha woww Jim. Well Im sorry to let you down that your Necrons will be stomped on by my Tau... whoops

Oh you want some? Come git some. 1850 BAO missions and rules. My crons vs your Tau. Sunday at 3.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, I never said that I will be running crons at the BAO.... But I haven't ruled it out.

 jy2 wrote:
Oh you want some? Come git some. 1850 BAO missions and rules. My crons vs your Tau. Sunday at 3.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, I never said that I will be running crons at the BAO.... But I haven't ruled it out.

Lets do it. Oh, and I was just taking a guess based off of the armies you play. I wouldn't be surprised if Daemons were a possibility too.

 Blackmoor wrote:
There is a good chance that the new Astro Militarium will be overlooked and be a formidable army.

Invisible fearless blobs scare me, sure the blob can only hold one objective, doesn't appear to be a limit on how many it can contest. Scary stuff, at least they can be tank shocked around a bit.

Why is everyone worried about invisibility? From my experience recently at the Bugeater GT, Imperial Knights were the main counter to Eldar wave serpent/beast star armies. IK have the speed to close and the ranged shooting to take out serpents.

Invisible units mean little to Imperial Knights as their stomp is not affected by the power.

Invisibility makes a unit or two great, no doubt. But If you are so concerned that it is so bad ass why not make a counter list? MSU is the ultimate spoiler to these ultra high productively buffed units. Bubble wrap, roadblock, run, outplay. I feel like a lot of the negativity and doomy stats can be overcome by critical thinking and tactical play. As well as some decent list building.I personally hope every one of my opponents relies on this power as part of their strategy. I have good idea of how to pull the rug out from under them.