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Anecdotal or not, I tend to look at it as a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.

Yes, Eldar is a tough matchup for DE, just like DE are for Tyranids. However, it isn't an unwinnable matchup and a build like beaststar certainly has a shot, even if they probably aren't the favorites most of the time.

That's the only time I've ever seen dark Eldar defeat Eldar (including my own attempts) and Corsair is right. That's not really a fair matchup. The player quality isn't on par with most Eldar tourney players of late.

Not to say that it's impossible, it just takes either tremendous luck or an incompetent opponent.

Or skill, tactics and good list building.

I'd like to agree with you but go ahead and try sometime. It's REALLY difficult for dark Eldar to match up against Eldar when both lists were designed to win. I'm not a pessimistic person- in fact I'd consider myself to be the opposite. But I'm also not a fool

I think the Tyranids match up vs DE is better than DE vs Wave Serpent.

DE lacks on ways to deal with cover saves from Venomthrope throwing off a lot of poison shots just as lacks on ways to deal with Jink, Tyranids can bring a lot of numbers and even Termagants can and will break Raiders & Venoms, and even DL can be shrugged off on important things like Exocrine a Tyrannofex by sticking to cover, keeping Venomthrope wrapped out of sight in MC's, with Catalyst rolls helping all the more. This plus 2+ saves on TFex meaning it still takes +70 poison HITS (not shots) to even bring him down, while he is melting open tops and any infantry and even scoring the odd glance with Acid Spray.

It's not a favourable match up and with their speed and range dictation the ball is in DE's court along with the advantage, but it's far from un-winnable for Nids. Unlike 7-9 Wave Serpents vs DE.

Shingen wrote:
Or skill, tactics and good list building.

What's the edge dark eldar have over eldar?
Everything I see says that eldar are going to win out in any given set up.
Venoms are great, but not really any better than Vypers. Especially when you factor in that Vypers can actually KILL venoms, where as venoms are just throwing out ~4 wounding hits.
Lances are equal, except that eldar get them cheaper.
Those pesky serpent shields massively outrange the dark eldar, while ignoring cover for some reason.
Maybe it's just selection. 26 units for Eldar (not counting HQ's), vs 20 for the dark eldar (with 2 of the options being a troop choice with +1 attack)

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Doesn't look like you factored in the Scatter Lasers being Twin Linked? That effectively nets them 1 hit, which is all they need to twin link the Serpent Shield, which will get somewhere between 1 and 2 hits. Vs Armour 10 or 11, that's going to cause a glance/pen or two if they are lucky, which is enough to make someone Jink or even wreck a Venom. A jinking Ravager is almost worthless, a Jinking Wave Serpent can potentially kill a Venom by it's lonesome...

As for that Battle Report, i might be happier if it was pure Dark Eldar or you know...not 3 hours long, but I am sure it will help! As for the cheese list, it might not be auto win, but it is certainly cheesey. Many lists will crumble before the might of the Revenent! Doesn't hold the place of terror it once did, but that's fine, auto win games aren't very fun anyway. Scratch that, as i have never faced a Tyranid player, i don't think i know the feeling

My math was wrong.

Overall average of 1.19 S6 hits for the TL-SL.
1/9th of the time there will be 0 SL hits > 0.5S6AP2 hit / 0.75 S7 Ignore Cover hits
8/9th there will be at least one SL hit > 1 S6AP2 hit / 1.35 S7 Ignore Cover hits

On average:
1.19 S6AP6
0.94 S6AP2
1.28 S7AP- Ignores Cover

Against AV10 no cover: 0.9pen / 0,38 glance - 30% pen death and 23% HP death (AP2 open topped 5++) -- 53% death
Against AV10 cover: 0,78 pen / 0,32 glance - 26% pen death and 16% HP death (AP2 4+ cover open topped 5++) -- 42% death. I guess jink is not a good option.
AV10 sucks though - I'm really starting to reconsider fielding Vypers for my next game...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Shingen wrote:
Or skill, tactics and good list building.

What's the edge dark eldar have over eldar?
Everything I see says that eldar are going to win out in any given set up.
Venoms are great, but not really any better than Vypers. Especially when you factor in that Vypers can actually KILL venoms, where as venoms are just throwing out ~4 wounding hits.
Lances are equal, except that eldar get them cheaper.
Those pesky serpent shields massively outrange the dark eldar, while ignoring cover for some reason.
Maybe it's just selection. 26 units for Eldar (not counting HQ's), vs 20 for the dark eldar (with 2 of the options being a troop choice with +1 attack)

I think the DE have some great assault troops correct ? (I know, in 7th, that's not really great news)
Eldar don't have any.

Vypers can't transport anything, aren't any tougher than Venoms and are usually ditched for the better units in the codex.
Vypers can probably handle Venoms, but they don't have an invul save or Poison weapons which would be awesome against some more competitive units like WK.
Even if they could transport stuff we still wouldn't use them.
Lances don't seem very competitive for either Eldar or DE.
The Serpent Shields are limited to TL-SL range in practice (36"), board size, and oftentimes Shuriken cannon (24").

In my opinion, vehicles in general are too easy to kill, especially AV10-11-12 / rear10 that can be assaulted by anything S4 and shot down by very available weapons.
That's why the DE are having such a hard time, because that's the only vehicles they've got and they still have to get into assault.

morgoth wrote:


I think the DE have some great assault troops correct ? (I know, in 7th, that's not really great news)
Eldar don't have any.

Vypers can't transport anything, aren't any tougher than Venoms and are usually ditched for the better units in the codex.
Vypers can probably handle Venoms, but they don't have an invul save or Poison weapons which would be awesome against some more competitive units like WK.
Even if they could transport stuff we still wouldn't use them.
Lances don't seem very competitive for either Eldar or DE.
The Serpent Shields are limited to TL-SL range in practice (36", board size, and oftentimes Shuriken cannon (24".

In my opinion, vehicles in general are too easy to kill, especially AV10-11-12 / rear10 that can be assaulted by anything S4 and shot down by very available weapons.
That's why the DE are having such a hard time, because that's the only vehicles they've got and they still have to get into assault.

Great Assault Troops? Wyches get S3 attacks, and are 6+ armor vs shoot and 4+ invul in combat. That 4+ invul looks good on paper, but the inability to get to combat, or kill in combat once they arrive hamstrings them. Incubi are slightly better, but at 22 point for S4 A2 power weapons, they out still outperformed by out armies dedicated assault units. Hellions? T4 5+ jet bikes? I'm just not seeing the assault unit that is going to really deal the damage.

3 Venoms shooting at WK. 36 shots, 24 hits, 12 wounds, 3+ armor = ~4 failed saves.
3 Vypers, 18 shots, 12 hits, 2 wounds at AP2 with no save.
3 Venom vs Riptide, 36 shots, 24 hits, 12 wounds, 2+ armor save - ~2 failed saves.
3 Vypers, 18 shots, 12 hits, 4 normal saves and 2 AP2 wounds ~ 2 failed saves.
Against T5 or T4 units with 2+ armor, the shurikens pull ahead of the poison shots.
In performance, vypers and venoms are very similar, with the exception of the vypers being able to take on armor. The fact that people aren't running vypers shows that the role they fill can be covered better by other eldar units, and dark eldar don't have that option.
Lances used to be the bread and butter of DE. Of course, you used to be able to get very large numbers of them.

If you want an assault army, it looks like Eldar do it better (Wraithblades, Wraith Knights, shining spears)
If you want a shooty army, looks like eldar are better, S6 > poison 4+, and S4 shuriken on par with splinters + survivable effective firepower; having units and transports who have ignore cover/ignore jink is a problem for DE, and something DE lack against enemies.
If you want a mobile army, Eldar jet bikes as troops and everything getting battle focus makes them quicker than their DE counterpart.
Characters now seem a toss-up, though the inability to mount up a DE character seems like a huge nerf. I miss the option for the sky boards and jetbikes.

Feth it all, the hour grows dark and the future seems grim for the Dark Eldar, in our hour of need there is only one force that we can turn to as allies. No it is not the Eldar nor is it something found outside our codex. That is right brothers, we must turn to the mandrake!

Fill your HQ slots with Haemonculi and d..d..d..DROP the webway bringing the living nightmares straight to your opponent's face spitting out baleblasts like the good neighbor we are. Trust me, no one will ever see it coming.

 jy2 wrote:
Anecdotal or not, I tend to look at it as a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.

Yes, Eldar is a tough matchup for DE, just like DE are for Tyranids. However, it isn't an unwinnable matchup and a build like beaststar certainly has a shot, even if they probably aren't the favorites most of the time.

I don't tend see light at the end of a dark tunnel as a valid strategy in a tactics forum. I also prefer advice come from a source who has actually played DE in at least 6th if not 7th. Have you played with them in either?

As for those matchups, tyranids are not an easy win for DE at all. They weren't in 6th, now in 7th Tyranids have a huge edge over them. With massed FMC's who only take grounding checks after being wounded but ALSO one at the END of turn, the pendulum swung way back in favor of nids. Even if I ground one, its back in the air again before I can shoot full BS shots and worse still I probably just helped give it the option to assault my units where it can hide if it needs to and with one smash attack, bang they can due it easier then before. Then there are the recyclable infantry in formations and yet even more fliers and the huge access to torrent flamers or even haywire flamers on fmc's which now not only deal an auto haywire hit to DE's crap hp skimmers but also a s5 hit and THEN it roasts the occupants. I think your stuck back in 5th when there actually was a mismatch in favor of DE.

As for DE against eldar, it really does come down to the skill level of the eldar player+luck. The people who keep claiming ONLY DE skill is required need to take their horse blinders off (some of them also need to show their list to be taken seriously). It takes a masterful stroke by the DE player, literally minimal poor rolling all while the eldar player needs to roll bad on his saves and make poor moves. The only solid advice I have seen is using eldar allies, which is ironic at the least as well as not following the OP's guidelines, and beastpacks. Sadly beastpacks are the last great tool we have left, which is rather sad, especially when yet again it almost always requires eldar support to show consistent results. Again ironic.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

morgoth wrote:


I think the DE have some great assault troops correct ? (I know, in 7th, that's not really great news)
Eldar don't have any.

Vypers can't transport anything, aren't any tougher than Venoms and are usually ditched for the better units in the codex.
Vypers can probably handle Venoms, but they don't have an invul save or Poison weapons which would be awesome against some more competitive units like WK.
Even if they could transport stuff we still wouldn't use them.
Lances don't seem very competitive for either Eldar or DE.
The Serpent Shields are limited to TL-SL range in practice (36", board size, and oftentimes Shuriken cannon (24".

In my opinion, vehicles in general are too easy to kill, especially AV10-11-12 / rear10 that can be assaulted by anything S4 and shot down by very available weapons.
That's why the DE are having such a hard time, because that's the only vehicles they've got and they still have to get into assault.

Great Assault Troops? Wyches get S3 attacks, and are 6+ armor vs shoot and 4+ invul in combat. That 4+ invul looks good on paper, but the inability to get to combat, or kill in combat once they arrive hamstrings them. Incubi are slightly better, but at 22 point for S4 A2 power weapons, they out still outperformed by out armies dedicated assault units. Hellions? T4 5+ jet bikes? I'm just not seeing the assault unit that is going to really deal the damage.

3 Venoms shooting at WK. 36 shots, 24 hits, 12 wounds, 3+ armor = ~4 failed saves.
3 Vypers, 18 shots, 12 hits, 2 wounds at AP2 with no save.
3 Venom vs Riptide, 36 shots, 24 hits, 12 wounds, 2+ armor save - ~2 failed saves.
3 Vypers, 18 shots, 12 hits, 4 normal saves and 2 AP2 wounds ~ 2 failed saves.
Against T5 or T4 units with 2+ armor, the shurikens pull ahead of the poison shots.
In performance, vypers and venoms are very similar, with the exception of the vypers being able to take on armor. The fact that people aren't running vypers shows that the role they fill can be covered better by other eldar units, and dark eldar don't have that option.
Lances used to be the bread and butter of DE. Of course, you used to be able to get very large numbers of them.

If you want an assault army, it looks like Eldar do it better (Wraithblades, Wraith Knights, shining spears)
If you want a shooty army, looks like eldar are better, S6 > poison 4+, and S4 shuriken on par with splinters + survivable effective firepower; having units and transports who have ignore cover/ignore jink is a problem for DE, and something DE lack against enemies.
If you want a mobile army, Eldar jet bikes as troops and everything getting battle focus makes them quicker than their DE counterpart.
Characters now seem a toss-up, though the inability to mount up a DE character seems like a huge nerf. I miss the option for the sky boards and jetbikes.

He doesn't even know most of the DE units, which should be clear evidence he doesn't play the army. I think that speaks volumes.

Morgoths' gimmick is claiming that Eldar aren't OP, he does it in his posts everythread even one they aren't mentioned. Feel free to check his posts if you want confirmation.

His posts in this one about Dark Eldar being so strong are really just a roundabout way of him calling Eldar balanced. He knows very little about the army and can doesn't own a codex to reference them so can barely even tread water in this thread. I wouldn't pay it too much mind.

Just thought id add: what vehicle crew apart from serp crew can safely make a cup of tea in the cabin, whilst calmly watching a deathstrike missile land plumb on their heads?

 Ignatius wrote:
That's the only time I've ever seen dark Eldar defeat Eldar (including my own attempts) and Corsair is right. That's not really a fair matchup. The player quality isn't on par with most Eldar tourney players of late.

Not to say that it's impossible, it just takes either tremendous luck or an incompetent opponent.

The player quality is there. It just needs a little more seasoning. Justin is a very tactical player. I've played against him before and he soundly beat my necrons. Even an inexperienced Justin is still a lot better than most of the other experienced Eldar players. Yes, he is a really good player.

 Red Corsair wrote:

I don't tend see light at the end of a dark tunnel as a valid strategy in a tactics forum. I also prefer advice come from a source who has actually played DE in at least 6th if not 7th. Have you played with them in either?

So I have to have played the army to be able to offer any insight at all? So it doesn't matter that I've played against Beaststar or Venom-spam DE many times before? Or that I myself am a mechdar player and knows their strengths and weaknesses very well?

Well, then....feel free to ignore any of the posts coming out of my mouth with regards to this matter.

And for the record, I haven't even offered any strategy advice yet. All I've done was to post a link to a battle report between the 2 armies discussed that may possibly offer some insight for some of the players here. You may have found it to be of no help, but I disagree. I think that there is actually a lot that can be gleaned from the report.

 Red Corsair wrote:

As for those matchups, tyranids are not an easy win for DE at all. They weren't in 6th, now in 7th Tyranids have a huge edge over them. With massed FMC's who only take grounding checks after being wounded but ALSO one at the END of turn, the pendulum swung way back in favor of nids. Even if I ground one, its back in the air again before I can shoot full BS shots and worse still I probably just helped give it the option to assault my units where it can hide if it needs to and with one smash attack, bang they can due it easier then before. Then there are the recyclable infantry in formations and yet even more fliers and the huge access to torrent flamers or even haywire flamers on fmc's which now not only deal an auto haywire hit to DE's crap hp skimmers but also a s5 hit and THEN it roasts the occupants.

You know, haywire is much much stronger against Eldar non-crap skimmers and Land Raiders, and just about any good vehicle right ?
Haywire being used against crap vehicles is the best way to minimize its efficiency.

 Red Corsair wrote:

He doesn't even know most of the DE units, which should be clear evidence he doesn't play the army. I think that speaks volumes.

Indeed I don't.
However I know the Wave Serpent much better than most players because I knew it a lot more when it wasn't really popular, and have updated my understanding of it to v7 rules.
Now if you don't need that intel to win that uphill battle, good for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
About that Eldar vs DE battle report:
1> 2 D-cannon WraithKnight in 1850 points. Almost one third of the army of undercosted MC doom. Not sure that even registers as "Serpent Spam", there aren't even three Elite WS and the dragon squads are really minimalistic (I prefer exarch fast shot, 6 fusion shots > 4 hits > 3 pen > boom).

2> No Shuriken Cannons on the WS because the list was optimized to fit the WK first. Not really telling us much about real Serpent Spam.

3> DE deployment could've been much better, he's giving free LoS on his beasts and worse threat range on his skimmers.

4> Let his two first serpents die when there was still a way to save them, forced to jink two because he did not hide one behind the other, ...

5> Deploy new WS in front of the beasts to make sure they can't catch it... Tank Shocking Beasts.. wtf. He could have moved behind cover and shot the skimmers behind right ?

6> I'm not sure but deployment zone would favor DE because there is less depth overall, only one option for Eldar to increase distance (in the one deep corner), average assault distance is shorter.


Overall, Justin underestimated the Beast threat, DE were favored by deployment (no Eldar on the table T1, diagonal gives better advantage for Assault armies) yet messed it up slightly (beasts could've started wider, jetbikes behind, skimmers closer to the line, somewhat forcing worse deployment for the Eldar then cornering him then table in assault.).

The DE player also could have done better in the movement phase with his beasts.
With their movement and run, starting from the center of a diagonal deployment, he could've covered the whole Eldar deployment zone by the end of the second turn (2x average run inside the Eldar deployment zone), keeping the charge for third turn as he did, which would've netted him 3 Serpents, the Fire Dragons, and tarpitting the two MCs until the others joined in, or simply swarming the top-left corner and ignoring top-right for one turn.
Instead he charged two WS and one WK.

I have no idea how many more mistakes the DE player made, but the Eldar could've done much better.

Anyway, hindsight is always 20/20, but the main thing is that game does not feature a Serpent Spam list imo, and there are too many situational advantages for the DE to make it a fair comparison.

morgoth wrote:
Anyway, hindsight is always 20/20, but the main thing is that game does not feature a Serpent Spam list imo

What do you consider Serpent Spam? How many? My reason for asking is that in my tournament list I usually run 3 or 4, but don't consider that spam. I'm interested to find out your take.

 Gangrel767 wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Anyway, hindsight is always 20/20, but the main thing is that game does not feature a Serpent Spam list imo

What do you consider Serpent Spam? How many? My reason for asking is that in my tournament list I usually run 3 or 4, but don't consider that spam. I'm interested to find out your take.

As an Eldar, you are forced - yes, forced - to take three WS if you want to field Elite.
You may want to have one unit of troops somewhat protected - or maybe even Wraith - so you're very likely going to take a fourth.

That, in my opinion, is the minimum core of a decent Eldar Army.

In my opinion, if that's the core, then it can't possibly be considered spam, because we don't even have another decent option.

Then comes the spam, or my list, where the goal really is to get as many WS on the board, just because those models are awesome.

I get 7 with shu-cannon TLSL and holofields and 2 Prisms in 2K - and it's very far from a competitive list in my humble opinion.

not sure how your oponnent is both indestructable, AND killing your whole army with wave serpants...

if the sheild is used offensively, it cant be used defensively,

if they jink for the cover save, they are making snap shots.


if dark lances work on av 14 and 13, they work just as well on av 12... not sure how on earth you see them as working "worse" when in fact they work just as well on av 12 as 13+14.

other then that, you have acess to haywire, and fast transports with a lot of firepower yourself. any masses str 7+ fire will do the trick

First off- good for your humble opinion about your list, but just because it's an opinion doesn't make it correct. That's a darn good list you've got and I haven't even seen the whole thing.

Second, let's get this thread back on track. It's about Dark Eldar and their attempts to take on Wave Serpents in numbers (as few as 3 at I time even). Wave serpents are a tough match up and we are trying to find strategies to take them out.

Eldar players coming into the thread can be a great help, if you tell us what your afraid of or what has taken them out in the past. But coming in post after post saying it's not as good as we think, etc etc isn't helping.

Now then. What I've been relying on is my two ravagers focusing on one every turn. It generally will take one out, but I'd like to hear some other suggestions as I'm a little shaky on it

morgoth wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Anyway, hindsight is always 20/20, but the main thing is that game does not feature a Serpent Spam list imo

What do you consider Serpent Spam? How many? My reason for asking is that in my tournament list I usually run 3 or 4, but don't consider that spam. I'm interested to find out your take.

As an Eldar, you are forced - yes, forced - to take three WS if you want to field Elite.
You may want to have one unit of troops somewhat protected - or maybe even Wraith - so you're very likely going to take a fourth.

That, in my opinion, is the minimum core of a decent Eldar Army.

In my opinion, if that's the core, then it can't possibly be considered spam, because we don't even have another decent option.

Then comes the spam, or my list, where the goal really is to get as many WS on the board, just because those models are awesome.

I get 7 with shu-cannon TLSL and holofields and 2 Prisms in 2K - and it's very far from a competitive list in my humble opinion.

That's fair. I tend to agree. My tournament list usually sports 2-3 Wraith Knights, a couple units of jetbikes, and a unit of warp spiders with those 3-4 serpents... all depends on points of the tourney. I have NOT played any 7th tournaments, but i think the list will translate over just fine.

how can DE counter WS? As an Eldar player, I don't think they can, - but then that is true for most lists - what I WOULD say is remember that flamer template weapons have no cover save allowed - this was used to great effect by a Tyranid player I played recently who rear shot me from a hive crone.. .. rear armour.. other than very expensive one shot reveal units that will die after delivery, there really isn't much anyone can do other than deep strike a powerclaw.. joking aside the LOS guy was probably closest, when he started saying that everyone trolled it, but you must try to close on them in one go. I don't see it as being unrealistic.. I play eldar but my main worry with my WS is being far away enough.. (that other players of eldar seem to ignore).. you see, secretly, most eldar players like to be at least 24 inches from you because they like to use the Shuriken Canon too.. not only is 24 inches very close, this ALSO limits their movement to 6 inches.. so I would say to any DE player - stay around 24 inches away (the average WS player will let you - even WANT you that far away) but out of LOS and you should be able be able to assault them with a raider - shooting with lances is all but pointless... rear armour? close combat? that's another thing.. even if you LITERALLY end up using one raider per wave serp it would work - probably nuke them all..

 jy2 wrote:
All I've done was to post a link to a battle report between the 2 armies discussed that may possibly offer some insight for some of the players here. You may have found it to be of no help, but I disagree. I think that there is actually a lot that can be gleaned from the report.

Yes, this is what we learned:

1) When a shooty army going first with highly mobile 60” ignores cover shots in a vanguard strike deployment decides to reserve most of his force against an assaulty army instead of shooting it, and
2) focuses on the non-assault units when his reserves do arrive,
3) he will have a difficult time winning.

How this is supposed to help a Dark Eldar player beat a competent Wave Serpent player however, I have no idea.

 easysauce wrote:
not sure how your oponnent is both indestructable, AND killing your whole army with wave serpants...

if the sheild is used offensively, it cant be used defensively,

if they jink for the cover save, they are making snap shots.

if dark lances work on av 14 and 13, they work just as well on av 12... not sure how on earth you see them as working "worse" when in fact they work just as well on av 12 as 13+14.

other then that, you have acess to haywire, and fast transports with a lot of firepower yourself. any masses str 7+ fire will do the trick

1. If the shield is used offensively, he wont need to use it defensively. After All the S7 ignores cover, you are not likely to have much to shoot back it it.

2. Serpents wont need to jink most of the time with cover and intervening models + holofields. Even if they do jink, A snap shooting Serpent has a pretty decent chance at wrecking a venom anyway. (math for that is above)

3. The thing about Dark Lances "not being good" against AV 12 works like this. You are penning AV 12 on the same number as AV 13/14. This is bad because it is much cheaper to bring AV 12 to the table than it is to bring AV 13/14. For example, for the cost of a land raider, you could bring 2 Serpents. So to have the same effect on the enemy, you would have to bring twice as many Dark Lances. Its more of a efficiency problem, as dark lances are not cheap.

4. Where is Dark Eldar getting this massed S7 fire from?

 jy2 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
That's the only time I've ever seen dark Eldar defeat Eldar (including my own attempts) and Corsair is right. That's not really a fair matchup. The player quality isn't on par with most Eldar tourney players of late.

Not to say that it's impossible, it just takes either tremendous luck or an incompetent opponent.

The player quality is there. It just needs a little more seasoning. Justin is a very tactical player. I've played against him before and he soundly beat my necrons. Even an inexperienced Justin is still a lot better than most of the other experienced Eldar players. Yes, he is a really good player.

 Red Corsair wrote:

I don't tend see light at the end of a dark tunnel as a valid strategy in a tactics forum. I also prefer advice come from a source who has actually played DE in at least 6th if not 7th. Have you played with them in either?

So I have to have played the army to be able to offer any insight at all? So it doesn't matter that I've played against Beaststar or Venom-spam DE many times before? Or that I myself am a mechdar player and knows their strengths and weaknesses very well?

Well, then....feel free to ignore any of the posts coming out of my mouth with regards to this matter.

And for the record, I haven't even offered any strategy advice yet. All I've done was to post a link to a battle report between the 2 armies discussed that may possibly offer some insight for some of the players here. You may have found it to be of no help, but I disagree. I think that there is actually a lot that can be gleaned from the report.

You can offer insight all you want, but your credibility on the issue at hand will be suspect when your experience is lacking. Consider the fact that if your inexperience with DE doesn't weigh on your insight at all, then all your experience with Necrons or tyranids doesn't matter either on that venue. You can't have it both ways.


And considering you have openly admitted to a lack of DE opponents in your own threads this wreaks a bit. Many times? From my knowledge you have played GTA (an Eldar player btw) who doesn't field DE primary and used to splash a beastpack then switched to pure seercouncil when the new book dropped with an venom for GT's and Franky who also heavily relies on Eldar. Playing a 'handful' of games against DE doesn't an expert make.


Oh and whats with the Justin Cook pitch? We get it, you think he's the greatest player ever. I notice every player you face shares this title. Rather convenient for you win or lose I'd say. Talk the crap out of them then you come out on top no matter what. In those videos, his CWE play was utter garbage which is all that's relevant. I don't care how great he should be or can be, he was playing serpent spam like crap.



Even an inexperienced Justin is still a lot better than most of the other experienced Eldar players. Yes, he is a really good player.
BTW this line almost made me spew my coffee. This has to be the most pretentious, stuck up, insulting post I have ever read. Maybe he should wear a cape and hang out on ledges as well?

I gotta agree, I respect Jy2 giving opinions because he often posts explanations with a lot of depth and clarity. However, the whole Jy2 to circle jerk is getting pretty played out. How come whenever he gives an opinion on a race he DOES play you can't even voice a disagreement without a bunch of people telling you that you aren't on Jy2's level (without having any idea if you are or not) and to stop arguing against the facts (as seen by Jy2 of course). Then he perpetuates this circle by saying everyone he's Ever played is a god tier player and their actions and opinions should be studied and learned from, even when it's a guy playing Eldar at 11 year old kid with a netlist level.

Can't we just merit advice on the quality of the content, and not by who is saying it?

 SHUPPET wrote:
I gotta agree, I respect Jy2 giving opinions because he often posts explanations with a lot of depth and clarity. However, the whole Jy2 to circle jerk is getting pretty played out. How come whenever he gives an opinion on a race he DOES play you can't even voice a disagreement without a bunch of people telling you that you aren't on Jy2's level (without having any idea if you are or not) and to stop arguing against the facts (as seen by Jy2 of course). Then he perpetuates this circle by saying everyone he's Ever played is a god tier player and their actions and opinions should be studied and learned from, even when it's a guy playing Eldar at 11 year old kid with a netlist level.

Can't we just merit advice on the quality of the content, and not by who is saying it?

I think some people are afraid of that because it means no matter how much they work on their standing, they'll still be just a fool.

That Justin guy, if he's really a good player, had a really bad day that day because he made major mistakes that aren't even related to the army he's playing.

I don't think any of the two players in that match did really good tbh. They may be good outside of that match, but they both made mistakes with a serious, foreseeable impact.

Soo the only counter that Dark Eldar effectively have against Eldar Cheese Serpents are ...wait for it more Edlar Cheese Serpents or other Eldar Allied units

That seems to be very poor idea

And of course the "Skill" to be able to use Cheese Serpents - after all its a mark of really good player that they can use OP units as well as average ones - poor players simply can;t do that...........

Yeah it's a shame that this thread just got ravaged by Eldar players raging that people suggested that their Serpents are broken... Was meant to be a strategy discussion, nmid that tho rite it's all bout blindly defending your own army whether it's relevant to the convo or not

 Mr Morden wrote:
Soo the only counter that Dark Eldar effectively have against Eldar Cheese Serpents are ...wait for it more Edlar Cheese Serpents or other Eldar Allied units

That seems to be very poor idea

And of course the "Skill" to be able to use Cheese Serpents - after all its a mark of really good player that they can use OP units as well as average ones - poor players simply can;t do that...........

No matter what you think, a bad WS player will lose to a good DE player most of the time.
No matter how OP a unit is, it cannot compensate the enormous impact that better strategy and tactics have on a game like WH40K, beginning with list choices and finishing with movement and targeting choices.

Because we have the chance to have a sample game, I'll use it for reference:
1. Eldar picked a WK warlord, missing on the very awesome warlord traits to deny Victory Points.
2. Eldar lost one WS in the early game because he decided to engage before his forces were regrouped, and without making good use of the cover.
3. Eldar lost more WS in the third turn because he did not realize what threat the Beasts were posing, and instead of deploying to counter that, he simply offered three units for them to charge where he could've limited that to just one WS (or even zero if you're me).

Even though he was rocking competitive units (WS) and OP units (naked WK), none of that could compensate the major tactical mistakes he made.

I am sorry but that is an unfair representation of an Eldar vs dark Eldar match. In the later stages of a tournament it is unreasonable to assume the other player is an idiot or will make stupid mistakes. Before giving a suggestion, think if YOU were the eldar player would it work on you? I know if I played serpent spam I wouldn't let myself be caught under any circumstances by wyches, those venoms would be dead. That beast lack would either be tar pitted or psychicly controlled. And God help you if you make a WK a warlord vs Dark Eldar, you are not thinking straight. I don't want to win due to the opponent being an idiot, I want to be on an even footing against a fair opponent, but in WH40K that seems like an unrealistic idea.

No matter how OP a unit is, it cannot compensate the enormous impact that better strategy and tactics have on a game like WH40K, beginning with list choices and finishing with movement and targeting choices.

Good to see you admitting that the Wave Serpent is OP - excellent progress.

Right, so your argument now is - if the Eldar player is incompetent he might still loose even with OP units - but again a "fair" match up is simply one way game - which again helps confirm the OP nature of the Wave Serpent.