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NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 Emperors_Champion wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Chozo wrote:

 Emperors_Champion wrote:
I was just talking to a mate about getting pThagrosh, bringing back an 11pt Carnivean who the enemy have only just managed to take down has got to be annoying.... glad I'm the Legion player!

Carniveans are small time, bring back your Archangel.

The problem with that is you brought back an Archangel.

I don't have one yet but definitely on the cards!

No no... the point is.... Archangel is terrible. Not like "meh... so-so"... but outright terrible. My wife plays Legion primarily and never stops talking about what an abysmal purchase the Archangel was.

Ah man that sucks! The model is so nice too!

It is a bit sad - the Archangel really needs something to bring it up a bit, as it is a 20pt beast that does less than two ravagores generally, while actually being less tough.

That said, the fact that pThagrosh can bring it completely back to life does make it kinda good value with him, And the model *is* amazing in person, so even as a shelf sitter it has value as a painting/display piece.

Most of the Gargantuans have the same problem. Being overpriced and not durable enough, and not having the offensive output to compensate.

Only the Mammoth is actually good by himself.

The Woldwrath can be ok in the right list but he has some very crippling limitations.

The Archangel is a travesty.

The Mountain King was an utter screw up, one or two of his problems would have been ok. All together its really bad. Super fragile(like 6 or so charging weapon masters can kill him), only ok damage output. Sure, he has an inbuilt healing mechanism which does mean that if you fail to kill him you'll be in trouble. Mat5... My question just becomes "What were you guys smoking?"

I suppose they didn't want to go the GW route, as in releasing these giant pieces that are seen as unbeatable therefore becoming auto-include.... they would then be labelled as money grabbers who just want everyone to buy the next big thing they release in order to beat the last big thing!

But I suppose a little more power for the money would be nice!I may get one at some point if only for the model itself.

Anyway... back on track!

Not overly powerful but I played the other night, popped off pLylyths feat and then watched as 3 rabid shredders shredded up a full health warpwolf! Not the best giant killing story but it made me smile!

The odd part of it is that they did a pretty good job with warmachine's colossals. They are obviously the strongest piece on the field (since they are so much more expensive) but far from unbeatable. Most of them are relatively close in power with some being somewhat better (stormwall) and others being somewhat worse (kraken). I have seen many games with all of them except the Kraken, whereas I have not seen a single gargantuan on the table yet. I am hoping to see this change if my buddy picks up the Mammoth for his new skorne army.

I tried out Constance Blaize in a highborn army the other day and her feat seems like it can be fantastic if timed perfectly. I was able to grant friendly warrior models in her CTRL +9ARM which bumped her remaining precursor knights up to 27 under shieldwall. She was sitting at ARM 25 and then had 15 focus on her next turn. 15 focus with a reach weapon, flashing blade, and flanking with Gallant AND transference to grant boosts to her infantry. Truly terrifying although it seems very difficult to do it right.

Quick breakddown, what is wrong with the gargantuans?

I can't speak for the others, but the problem with the Archangel is that it has an Animus so bad that it might as well not have an Animus and it has about 1.5 times the hit boxes of a Ravagore and the exact same defensive stats, but is twice the points cost.

Please, its animus is nothing like the Feral Warpwolf.

Most of them just don't seem to do anything that a regular beast or pair of beasts could do, and a hordes player can actually run 2 or more heavies effectively in a list since nearly all hordes factions have good beast support. War machine on the other hand tends to run very few war jacks, so having your one colossal instead of running one heavy works pretty well as that colossal will require the same resources as the one heavy while adding huge amounts of firepower to your list

Sim-Life wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
I'm afraid my Convergence leanings don't do well for me here. no really ridiculous feats in the faction. They're all solid but nothing that makes the opponent want to flip the table.

Cyriss has frustrating lists rather than feats.
Father Lucant with Reciprocators, a PA, and optifex directives are a good example.

That is a very fair point. Most of what makes us good is what happens when you take 2-3 models/units and use them together. Nothing really stands out as awesome on its own, but we have a buff for pretty much anything that can make it at least good (except the modulator...poor poor modulator...).

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Quick breakddown, what is wrong with the gargantuans?

Gargantuans suffer from the innate problem of Fury vs Focus on a much larger scale. Warmachine's mechanic auto refils, but is limited. Hordes is trying to balance filling the caster and the beasts with fury. Most warlocks cannot be fed off a lone model and it's inherently risky as it's death means you have to cut. For 20 points you get one colossal who cannot completely fuel a warlock OR you can get 2 heavies or 1 heavy+lights/lessers who will. Further complicate that with the tactical implications of a broader board impact from multiple models and Gargantuans just don't make the cut most of the time. Skorne came out a pretty clear winner as it has great base stats/abilities and they can support the dickens out of their mammoth AND they don't mind running very beast heavy anyway allowing them to take heavies along side it without too much fuss. The Woldwrath came out a default second compared to Archangel and Mountain King, being held back by spellward, which eBaldur can get around, but otherwise solid. The result is a lot of niche pieces in Gargs. Woldwrath and Mammoth require a list built around them where as many colossals can squeeze into lists to make them better.

Which I guess counters Beasts being slightly better individually than warjacks of equivalent cost.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 Emperors_Champion wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Chozo wrote:

 Emperors_Champion wrote:
I was just talking to a mate about getting pThagrosh, bringing back an 11pt Carnivean who the enemy have only just managed to take down has got to be annoying.... glad I'm the Legion player!

Carniveans are small time, bring back your Archangel.

The problem with that is you brought back an Archangel.

I don't have one yet but definitely on the cards!

No no... the point is.... Archangel is terrible. Not like "meh... so-so"... but outright terrible. My wife plays Legion primarily and never stops talking about what an abysmal purchase the Archangel was.

Which is annoying because the model is easily the best thing Pp have put out. In a world of mediocre dragon miniatures that thing stands head and shoulders above the rest.

PapaSoul wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:


In a world of mediocre dragon miniatures that thing stands head and shoulders above the rest.

Why don't like dragon miniatures? I've seen a couple that looks even better than the Archangel.

 dementedwombat wrote:

Sim-Life wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
I'm afraid my Convergence leanings don't do well for me here. no really ridiculous feats in the faction. They're all solid but nothing that makes the opponent want to flip the table.

Cyriss has frustrating lists rather than feats.
Father Lucant with Reciprocators, a PA, and optifex directives are a good example.

That is a very fair point. Most of what makes us good is what happens when you take 2-3 models/units and use them together. Nothing really stands out as awesome on its own, but we have a buff for pretty much anything that can make it at least good (except the modulator...poor poor modulator...).

It fits the theme of the army, everything is one part of a big machine that all comes together to murder stuff more efficiantly than the other guys.

Currently I'm strongly considering buying a second Prime Axiom for a Tier 4 Iron Mother list. 4 RAT8 (effective 10 with flares) drag attacks followed by MAT8 punches is pretty disgusting.

 dementedwombat wrote:
No really ridiculous feats in the faction.

Try telling that Iron Ma and her RAT 8 heavy vectors when a heavy jack is very lucky to have even RAT 6

Silly Convergence, needing a feat and flare to get above Rat5.

Protectorate is Rat7 all day and every day.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Silly Convergence, needing a feat and flare to get above Rat5.

Protectorate is Rat7 all day and every day.

We were talking about feats. Choir has a similar affect to some feats, but it's not actually a feat [though just as OP]

 sing your life wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
No really ridiculous feats in the faction.

Try telling that Iron Ma and her RAT 8 heavy vectors when a heavy jack is very lucky to have even RAT 6

I hit with blind....then all your jacks mat and rat go down

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
No really ridiculous feats in the faction.

Try telling that Iron Ma and her RAT 8 heavy vectors when a heavy jack is very lucky to have even RAT 6

I hit with blind....then all your jacks mat and rat go down

Nope. Any penalties to Mat and Rat don't effect Vectors unless you hit the controlling warcaster.

They will still suffer the "can't make ranged attacks and must forfeit movement or action" part of Blind.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
No really ridiculous feats in the faction.

Try telling that Iron Ma and her RAT 8 heavy vectors when a heavy jack is very lucky to have even RAT 6

I hit with blind....then all your jacks mat and rat go down

Nope. Any penalties to Mat and Rat don't effect Vectors unless you hit the controlling warcaster.

They will still suffer the "can't make ranged attacks and must forfeit movement or action" part of Blind.

that is what I meant, hitting the caster.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
that is what I meant, hitting the caster.

Good luck with that, considering that in an easy 3/5 matchups CoC can put out (the 3 that people seem to be playing, although I don't necessarily agree with that choice) the proper place for their warcaster is (Control range -1) inches behind their back line of vectors. The other two don't really use vectors...

If you did get to live the dream and make an entire army useless with one activation though, good for you. *grumble grumble Cygnar*

True, delivering Gorman to the enemy caster pretty much means you've already won or are about to.

Would you believe I have already done it?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Would you believe I have already done it?

Yes, I would. I would also assume that any player worth his salt would kill the little alchemist before he got anywhere near a caster. Though things happen, lucky deviations occur, yadda yadda, YMMV.

eHaley wins. Always. The choose-order part screws up any army that relies on synergy (most of them), and means that anything in the back rank doesn't get to play. The forfeit movement or action part prevents charging, moving and attacking or running. Either effect would be a feat in itself! And then they decided to give it to a caster with an 18" control area (with the Squire), so there's no actual risk in using it, and it's pretty much impossible to keep your army out of it. And if something was out of it, likely a support model you want to activate first? They activate last.

Against a player who even faintly knows what they're doing, it's an utterly wretched and miserable turn where you don't get to play the game, and in some scenarios is damn near an auto lose if you don't get first turn. I have never ever met anyone who thought the feat was balanced or fun to play against, and it's just bad design on every level.

Gorman tends to either die between turn 1 and 2, or he lives to cause death and destruction amid the lamentations of your opponents women.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Gorman tends to either die between turn 1 and 2, or he lives to cause death and destruction amid the lamentations of your opponents women.

Definitely the latter with me. I don't think I've ever lost him.

 Surtur wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Gorman tends to either die between turn 1 and 2, or he lives to cause death and destruction amid the lamentations of your opponents women.

Definitely the latter with me. I don't think I've ever lost him.

I'm in the same boat as Grey. It's either 'well there's that perfect scatter for you, you bastard' or 'muahahaha blind bombs for e'rryone!'

 Grey Templar wrote:
Gorman tends to either die between turn 1 and 2, or he lives to cause death and destruction amid the lamentations of your opponents women.

Why? is lamenting illegal amongst men In the IK?