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The rest tomorrow. It's getting late.
And now that I'm awake let's fix this.
Magnus the Red, Daemon Primarch of Tzeentch
Spoiler:
1250 points
Army: Chaos Space Marines
Unit Type: Flying Gargantuan Creaure
[WS][BS][S][T][W][.I.][A][LD][..SV..]
[..8..][.8..][9][9][.8.][.5][5][10][2+/4+]
Special Rules: The Sorcerer King, Blessing of the God of the Sorcerers, Psyker(ML6), Sorcerer
Wargear: Scarab Armor, Heqa Staff
The Sorcerer King: Magnus does not have any BRB powers and instead may cast any 2 of the *** powers per turn for the costs mentioned.
Magnus does not add his mastery into the psychic pool and instead treats has his own psychic pool.
Magnus takes his Psychic test as a leadership test as per 6th edition rules.
Powers cast by Magnus cannot be denied unless by a Gargantuan Creature or other Superheavy.
****************Antimatter Meteor: Witchfire/ Cost:3/ 15" blast/ 5 inch Center= Strength 10 AP:1, 5-10 inch middle- Strength 8, AP:3, Last layer- Strength 6 AP:5
****************Seismic Assault: Witchfire/ Cost:3/ S:8, AP:3, Assault 6D6
****************Transdimentional Maelstrom: Witchfire/ Cost:3 / S: D, AP:1, Hellstorm Template
****************Sky of Falling Stars: Witchfire/ Cost:3/ S:6, AP:5, Apocalyptic Barrage 5
****************Crematorium: Witchfire/ S:8, AP:3/ Cost:3/ Everything within D6+8 of the caster takes an auto hit with the profile mentioned, including the caster
Blessing of the God of Sorcerers: All allied Sorcerers within 12 inches of Magnus gain an additional mastery level, and all enemy psykers within 12 inches suffer perils of the warp on any doubles, and not just double 6s.
Angron the Red Angel, Daemon Primarch of Khorne
Spoiler:
1000 points
Army: Chaos Space Marines
Unit Type: Flying Gargantuan Creature
[WS][BS][.S.][T][W][.I.][A][LD][..SV..]
[.10.][10.][10][9][.8.][.9][9][10][2+/4+]
Special Rules: Rage, Rampage, Unholy Strength, Blessing of the War God
Wargear: Brass armor of Khorne,
Unholy Strength: All of Angron's normal attacks use a 3 inch blast template. The templates are placed anywhere in btb with Angron.
Blessing of the War God: Angron inspires both rage in his fellows, and soulshattering fear in those his blade faces. All friendly units within 12 inches of Angron gain the Rage USR, and all enemy units in 12 inches must take a morale test or run backwards 2d6 inches, and be unable to shoot the next turn.
Mortarion the Death Lord, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle
Spoiler:
1000 points
Army: Chaos Space Marines
Unit Type: Gargantuan Creature
[WS][BS][.S.][.T.][W][.I.][A][LD][..SV..]
[.10.][10.][.9.][10][10][.5][5][10][2+/3+]
Special Rules: IWND, Blessing of the Plague God, Shadow of the Reaper
Wargear: Scythe of the Reaper
Blessing of the Plague God: All friendly units within 10 inches of Mortarion gain FNP(5+), and IWND. All enemy units within 10 inches have -1 to their cover saves.
Shadow of the Reaper: As per Mortarion's HH rule of the same name.
Scythe of the Reaper: S: As User, AP:1, hits all models in base to base contact
Fulgrim the Illuminator, Daemon Primarch of Slaanesh
Spoiler:
750 points
Army: Chaos Space Marines
Unit Type: Gargantuan Creature
[WS][BS][.S.][T][W][.I.][A][LD][..SV..]
[..9..][.9..][.8.][8][.8.][.9][7][10][2+/4+]
Special Rules: Furious Charge, Fleet, Blessing of the God of Ecstasy, Blinding Speed, Demonic Perfection
Blessing of the God of Ecstasy: Fulgrim grants all friendly units within 10 inches a 4D6 run move, picking the two highest. Fulgrim causes all enemy units to lose their vigor and treat all terrain as difficult.
Blinding Speed: Fulgrim has the Counter Attack special rule, and gains d3 attacks on the charge.
Demonic Perfection: Even in his twisted form Fulgrim is unbelievably beautiful, bending enemies to his will. Enemy units must take a Leadership test on 2D6 to target him, or be pinned
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2014/06/08 21:25:29
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
This looks like way too much. A regular daemon prince has +2 strength and +1 toughness over a space marine. Using the same modifications on a primarch Angron should be something more along the lines of Str 9, T 7 or Str 10 T 8 if you really want to stretch it. Still more than powerful enough to stomp any generic daemon prince or greater daemon without any real struggle. Likewise the daemon primarchs should top off at 7 wounds, maybe 8 for Mortarion.
Pretty much the stats seem too much, it is like someone making the Emperor for 40k, he must be tough so lets give him 9s and 10s across the board. If you want them to be better you should focus more on wargear and special rules than just buffing their stats almost to the limit.
Not sure how many times I want to go through this song and dance with you, because I can pretty much go back to these same ideas and copy-paste my criticisms from before.
These are completely over the top, and a stats or comparison to a model does not adequately convey how broken they are in terms of how much they multiply the army around them.
And now we will have 3 pages of bad fluff comparisons and ignoring any criticism.
I don't understand Magnus, Is he a Psyker or isn't he? How many warp charges do his powers cost? Since he has no mastery level would any unit with a Psyker in it deny his attacks on a 4+? Can his shooting be denied at all, and if so, when using templates that hit multiple units, who gets to deny? All of them? None of them? How many of these powers did you steal from a Transcendent C'tan with no more effort then a name change?
Right now, that's all he is. A C'tan, who's powers have been renamed and thrown in the psychic phase instead of the shooting phase. Apart from the Blessing, how does this portray Magnus? You like the C'tan, fine, it's Apoc, use your 'Magnus' model with the C'Tan rules in your Thousand Sons army and as long as it is nicely converted no one will care, but this guy is blatantly copied directly from the C'Tan then +1 on other things. You can do better then this.
Not sure how many times I want to go through this song and dance with you, because I can pretty much go back to these same ideas and copy-paste my criticisms from before.
These are completely over the top, and a stats or comparison to a model does not adequately convey how broken they are in terms of how much they multiply the army around them.
And now we will have 3 pages of bad fluff comparisons and ignoring any criticism.
For their points cost they're about right.
Angron was similar in size to a warhound Titan, and he was killing multiple Grey Knight paladins per strike.
Magnus is more powerful than a guy who moved the Terran moon.
Enhancing Psykers within 12 inches, or granting rage to units in 12 minutes is a massive boon? You're talking out you're ass there.
Damn right I'm going to ignore you.
That's also far to general to be criticism, or any useful.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: I don't understand Magnus, Is he a Psyker or isn't he? How many warp charges do his powers cost? Since he has no mastery level would any unit with a Psyker in it deny his attacks on a 4+? Can his shooting be denied at all, and if so, when using templates that hit multiple units, who gets to deny? All of them? None of them? How many of these powers did you steal from a Transcendent C'tan with no more effort then a name change?
Right now, that's all he is. A C'tan, who's powers have been renamed and thrown in the psychic phase instead of the shooting phase. Apart from the Blessing, how does this portray Magnus? You like the C'tan, fine, it's Apoc, use your 'Magnus' model with the C'Tan rules in your Thousand Sons army and as long as it is nicely converted no one will care, but this guy is blatantly copied directly from the C'Tan then +1 on other things. You can do better then this.
They're powers and thus can be denied by any model being hit using a psychic die.
The C'tan has what I feel is the perfect power setup in terms of scale for points cost.
Magnus also has 8 wounds, a 4+, and a buffing ability.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/08 13:41:36
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
Ok, they are Psy-powers. Magnus doesn't have any Mastery Levels, so he doesn't add any dice to your pool? How many Warp Charges do these powers cost? Is it your intention to have all his powers denied on a 4+ by any army with a smattering of Psykers? From what you are saying i am getting the feeling you haven't read the new rules for Psykers, go have a thorough read of them before you try make a psyker monstrosity like Magnus, otherwise you are destined to fail. A word of warning, you will not like it. As any army that generates a moderate amount of Warp Charges will dominate an army containing Magnus, because it costs 30-ish points to buy a Warp Point Charge from the Inquisition Codex, It will only cost 200pts to get enough deny dice to make sure you won't get a single spell off.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Ok, they are Psy-powers. Magnus doesn't have any Mastery Levels, so he doesn't add any dice to your pool? How many Warp Charges do these powers cost? Is it your intention to have all his powers denied on a 4+ by any army with a smattering of Psykers? From what you are saying i am getting the feeling you haven't read the new rules for Psykers, go have a thorough read of them before you try make a psyker monstrosity like Magnus, otherwise you are destined to fail. A word of warning, you will not like it. As any army that generates a moderate amount of Warp Charges will dominate an army containing Magnus, because it costs 30-ish points to buy a Warp Point Charge from the Inquisition Codex, It will only cost 200pts to get enough deny dice to make sure you won't get a single spell off.
They don't have a cost, and Magnus doesn't add to the psychic dice pool, to make things as simple as possible.
Magnus casts these powers himself, in spite of the 7th rules.
I'm aware of the psychic changes in 7th, and made the wording on this to step around it, by making these powers in name only.
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
Then how do you deny them? If you don't manifest warp charges how do you deny them? You haven't 'stepped around it' you have actively broken it, if they are not powers then don't call them such. If he isn't a Psyker, don't give him the rule. If they are powers, he has to manifest them, he has to use Warp Charges and they have to have the chance to be denied. if he is not a Psyker, then you might as well use a C'Tan, because this guy will not be Magnus.
A good tip is when making your own rules, go with the flow of the rules and never break any basics of the rule set. If you have to break the basic rule set just to allow your character to be special, chances are he needs reworking...
**EDIT** I'd say Magnus is utterly over priced, because he will never get a single power off. He has no mastery level, therefore if is targeting a unit wit a Psyker in it then they can deny the Witch on a 4+. And anyone with that many Psykers will have enough dice to stop any of those single Warp Charge (I believe if they don't have a Warp Charge they are assumed to have 1) blessings. So in the end he is a very over priced close combat model who any Knight Titian could break in close combat.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/08 15:17:40
Ashiraya wrote: Magnus is broken beyond belief- he can just set the BS1 power on himself and become almost entirely unkillable.
I never meant for Magnus to be ae to cast that on himself.
Let me change that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Then how do you deny them? If you don't manifest warp charges how do you deny them? You haven't 'stepped around it' you have actively broken it, if they are not powers then don't call them such. If he isn't a Psyker, don't give him the rule. If they are powers, he has to manifest them, he has to use Warp Charges and they have to have the chance to be denied. if he is not a Psyker, then you might as well use a C'Tan, because this guy will not be Magnus.
A good tip is when making your own rules, go with the flow of the rules and never break any basics of the rule set. If you have to break the basic rule set just to allow your character to be special, chances are he needs reworking...
**EDIT** I'd say Magnus is utterly over priced, because he will never get a single power off. He has no mastery level, therefore if is targeting a unit wit a Psyker in it then they can deny the Witch on a 4+. And anyone with that many Psykers will have enough dice to stop any of those single Warp Charge (I believe if they don't have a Warp Charge they are assumed to have 1) blessings. So in the end he is a very over priced close combat model who any Knight Titian could break in close combat.
Again.
For their points cost they're fine as an apoc only unit.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/06/08 16:02:01
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
Oh look, ThePrimordial posts something crazy OP and over the top, ignores the valid criticism, and justifies it through silly fluff references and the classic defense of 'for the points he's fine', which is absolutely false.
Maybe you should start with creating normal sized units. You have a hard time understanding some basic ideas of balance that myself and others have gone over with you a dozen times now. I think instead of trying to balance and create these ridiculously over the top Apoc...things, you first try and hone your abilities with normal sized units.
Like make a marine chapter with a few difference and a special CT plus a few characters.
Because...I can't think of a reliable way to kill Mortarion without spamming 5 times his points in D weapons. A 2+/4++ with 5+++FnP and IWND coupled with T10 and 10 wounds for a measly 1000pts is just...impossibly difficult to kill unless I devote 5000pts in titans with destroyer weapons.
Your fascination with special psychic powers is also a little over the top. I mean, why not just use the book powers? There's even a S: D book power now, why not use that? Just keep it simple.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
Why is Fulgrim the same points as Angron? Angron is a FGMC which is MILES better then being a simple GMC, Angron massively better stats (Which is stupid, Fulgrim is stated to be the best duelist, even in Daemon Form he should have the highest WS in the game), Unholy Strength is massively better then blinding speed (Seriously, i don't even know how that ''attacks use template'' works, you have given no explanation, but i am guessing it's OP) and both have comparable auras.
Fulgrims Daemonic Perfection also makes no sense, the test should be to target him, not after he is wounded. Why on the seven hells would a Devastator shoot a Las Cannon at him, hit him, wound him, then what? The LASER BOLT thinks, hmm, this Guy/Girl/Thing is fit, I am going to be somehow deflected? This rule is stupid rule wise and physics wise...
Also why do all of your Primarches have the exact same save? You should want to make each different and unique, like Forge World has done by giving Angron a 3+ save. Out of interest, out of ALL of the Primarch topics you have created, have you ever *USED* any of them? Like...in a real game, with real people, who have read and fed back on your rules. How did they react and how did the game go?
Blacksails wrote: Oh look, ThePrimordial posts something crazy OP and over the top, ignores the valid criticism, and justifies it through silly fluff references and the classic defense of 'for the points he's fine', which is absolutely false.
Maybe you should start with creating normal sized units. You have a hard time understanding some basic ideas of balance that myself and others have gone over with you a dozen times now. I think instead of trying to balance and create these ridiculously over the top Apoc...things, you first try and hone your abilities with normal sized units.
Like make a marine chapter with a few difference and a special CT plus a few characters.
Because...I can't think of a reliable way to kill Mortarion without spamming 5 times his points in D weapons. A 2+/4++ with 5+++FnP and IWND coupled with T10 and 10 wounds for a measly 1000pts is just...impossibly difficult to kill unless I devote 5000pts in titans with destroyer weapons.
Your fascination with special psychic powers is also a little over the top. I mean, why not just use the book powers? There's even a S: D book power now, why not use that? Just keep it simple.
Magnus compared to Reaver
1250 to 1450
Both Apoc only
Reaver has 18 HP, and 4 regenerating void shields at AV14, and the ability to be healed easily with tech priests. Magnus has 8 wounds, at T:9 with a 4+ save. Conclusion? Reaver is dramatically tougher.
Reaver has 2 S, AP:1, 7' blasts, and the Apocalypse missile launcher. Magnus has an assortment of similarly powerful abilities. Both spit out 3 per turn. Conclusion? Reaver and Magnus have similar firepower.
The Phantom Titan, Warlord Titan, and Revenant are far more powerful for the points than the Reaver.
Mortarion has a 5+ FNP. What with that 5++++ garbage you're spouting? And it's a 4+ invul not a 4++. You realize it's possible to kill him in one hit with a D weapon right? You appear to be trolling, or just genuinely uninformed.
It's not my fault the fluff doesn't line up with your interpretation. But it certainly supports mine.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Why is Fulgrim the same points as Angron? Angron is a FGMC which is MILES better then being a simple GMC, Angron massively better stats (Which is stupid, Fulgrim is stated to be the best duelist, even in Daemon Form he should have the highest WS in the game), Unholy Strength is massively better then blinding speed (Seriously, i don't even know how that ''attacks use template'' works, you have given no explanation, but i am guessing it's OP) and both have comparable auras.
Fulgrims Daemonic Perfection also makes no sense, the test should be to target him, not after he is wounded. Why on the seven hells would a Devastator shoot a Las Cannon at him, hit him, wound him, then what? The LASER BOLT thinks, hmm, this Guy/Girl/Thing is fit, I am going to be somehow deflected? This rule is stupid rule wise and physics wise...
Also why do all of your Primarches have the exact same save? You should want to make each different and unique, like Forge World has done by giving Angron a 3+ save. Out of interest, out of ALL of the Primarch topics you have created, have you ever *USED* any of them? Like...in a real game, with real people, who have read and fed back on your rules. How did they react and how did the game go?
I've used a Daemon Magnus from way back when.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/08 18:53:35
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
Also X+ = Armour Save. X++ = Invulnerable Save. X+++ = Feel No Pain. X++++ = IWND. As for Mortarion being 1-shotted, that feels extremely unlikely. Lets do the math. Assuming you are hit with a D-Weapon, he then has to roll a 6. 16%. Then he has to roll a 4+. 8%. Then you have to fail 10 5+ Feel No Pain saves, I am not sure how to work that out, but i am sure it puts the percentage at about 3-ish% maybe? On the other hand i would also agree, Mortarion isn't worth 1000pts. You should make each of them Psykers (I know Mortarion Hates Psykers, but he is still a Daemon) with access to either their gods lore or the rulebook powers that go with their god (Telepathy=Slaanesh, Div=Tzeentch, Biomancy=Nurgle) to help sure up the points.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/08 18:54:50
Buttons wrote: This looks like way too much. A regular daemon prince has +2 strength and +1 toughness over a space marine. Using the same modifications on a primarch Angron should be something more along the lines of Str 9, T 7 or Str 10 T 8 if you really want to stretch it. Still more than powerful enough to stomp any generic daemon prince or greater daemon without any real struggle. Likewise the daemon primarchs should top off at 7 wounds, maybe 8 for Mortarion.
Pretty much the stats seem too much, it is like someone making the Emperor for 40k, he must be tough so lets give him 9s and 10s across the board. If you want them to be better you should focus more on wargear and special rules than just buffing their stats almost to the limit.
He did that before ascending.
Lorgar's a punk bitch and he beat An'ggrath.
Also X+ = Armour Save. X++ = Invulnerable Save. X+++ = Feel No Pain. X++++ = IWND. As for Mortarion being 1-shotted, that feels extremely unlikely. Lets do the math. Assuming you are hit with a D-Weapon, he then has to roll a 6. 16%. Then he has to roll a 4+. 8%. Then you have to fail 10 5+ Feel No Pain saves, I am not sure how to work that out, but i am sure it puts the percentage at about 3-ish% maybe? On the other hand i would also agree, Mortarion isn't worth 1000pts. You should make each of them Psykers (I know Mortarion Hates Psykers, but he is still a Daemon) with access to either their gods lore or the rulebook powers that go with their god (Telepathy=Slaanesh, Div=Tzeentch, Biomancy=Nurgle) to help sure up the points.
A FNP is a flat die. What are you saying? So is IWND. Unless your counting up all the saves.
I didn't know that it didn't ignore FNP, because FNP is still a save.
I also removed the FNP anyway.
Any Daemon but Magnus, Lorgar, and maybe Fulgrim(though it's not mentioned) shouldn't have powers for obvious reasons.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/08 19:18:44
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
First of all, I never mentioned Magnus other than his power thing.
Second of all, I explained how Mortarion was tough, not Magnus. If you're going to counter an argument, at least use the appropriate example.
Third, do you understand the difference between a vehicle and a creature? Do you understand what a save is?
Fourth, the + notations are common short hand for the different saves; + is an armour save, ++ is an invuln, and +++ is FnP as its taken in addition to the other saves.
Fifth, do you do any mathhammer? Do you understand how to do it?
Look, I'll show you. Lets compare Morty, an 1000pts GC to a superheavy Reaver.
The Reaver has 18 Hull point and 4 void shields. Void shields are AV12, the rest is AV14. T10 and AV14 are nearly synonymous in terms of the 'To Wound' and 'To Pen/Glance' mechanic; S10 both need 4+ to wound and pen/glance.
Morty has 10 wounds. However, he has a 4++, which means, right out of the gate, he has the vehicle equivalent to 15 HP/wounds. In addition to this, he has an additional save, which will stop a further third of all weapons, meaning he has nearly another 5 wounds. Then, he has IWND, which will regenerate wound every third turn.
The Reaver, on the other hand, has no save. None. Anything that glances or pens strips an HP. Further to this, on every pen, something bad happens to it, which can also cause more HP damage. The reaver is at best regenerating 2 void shields, which is a few autocannons worth of work.
The reaver is also incredibly weak to assault in comparison to Morty.
Finally, Morty is nearly 500 pts cheaper. I'd expect him to be either less durable and less killy, or if he's going to be as durable, he better be far less killy.
That's called balance.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
Blacksails wrote: First of all, I never mentioned Magnus other than his power thing.
Second of all, I explained how Mortarion was tough, not Magnus. If you're going to counter an argument, at least use the appropriate example.
Third, do you understand the difference between a vehicle and a creature? Do you understand what a save is?
Fourth, the + notations are common short hand for the different saves; + is an armour save, ++ is an invuln, and +++ is FnP as its taken in addition to the other saves.
Fifth, do you do any mathhammer? Do you understand how to do it?
Look, I'll show you. Lets compare Morty, an 1000pts GC to a superheavy Reaver.
The Reaver has 18 Hull point and 4 void shields. Void shields are AV12, the rest is AV14. T10 and AV14 are nearly synonymous in terms of the 'To Wound' and 'To Pen/Glance' mechanic; S10 both need 4+ to wound and pen/glance.
Morty has 10 wounds. However, he has a 4++, which means, right out of the gate, he has the vehicle equivalent to 15 HP/wounds. In addition to this, he has an additional save, which will stop a further third of all weapons, meaning he has nearly another 5 wounds. Then, he has IWND, which will regenerate wound every third turn.
The Reaver, on the other hand, has no save. None. Anything that glances or pens strips an HP. Further to this, on every pen, something bad happens to it, which can also cause more HP damage. The reaver is at best regenerating 2 void shields, which is a few autocannons worth of work.
The reaver is also incredibly weak to assault in comparison to Morty.
Finally, Morty is nearly 500 pts cheaper. I'd expect him to be either less durable and less killy, or if he's going to be as durable, he better be far less killy.
That's called balance.
He doesn't have FNP anymore.
An invulnerable save is taken if you cant take an armor save. You don't take both. The + at the end of an invul save of 3+ implies the ability to reroll 1s. A FNP has no such ability. FNP also cant be used if I already failed a save. Same with invul.
I can only assume you're trying to say that he has an answer to most things adding to his effective wound count, but that's not a reliable way to calc. My opponent could be fielding a Wraith Guard army, or a titan legon.
He's of similar durability to the reaver assuming AP:2 weapons are fairly common (In Apoc it will be), and S: D is uncommon (otherwise Reaver comes way ahead).
He's way less killy with the lack of S: D trashcan lids, and ranged weaponry in general.
Your calculations assume a flat lack of S: D and AP:2 weapons which are a common sight in Apoc.
I love how you gave up talking about Magnus.
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
An invulnerable save is taken if you cant take an armor save. You don't take both.
I'm well aware how the basic functions of saves work. Nowhere have I alluded to any different.
The + at the end of an invul save of 3+ implies the ability to reroll 1s.
No, I just explained to you what the + means. Go read the forums or any blog on the internet. A 3++ means a 3+ invulnerable save, nothing more.
FNP also cant be used if I already failed a save. Same with invul.
What? That's the entire point of a FnP save! If you couldn't take a FnP save after failing a save, you'd never be able to take them!
I can only assume you're trying to say that he has an answer to most things adding to his effective wound count, but that's not a reliable way to calc.
That is absolutely a reliable way to compare durability! You can't tailor a specific scenario where one is more durable than the other and draw conclusions from it. As an example, calculate how many wounds from a S10 AP2 weapon would be required to kill both.
For Morty, you'd 4 wounds after hits to peel of a single wound. For the Reaver, you'd need 2. The Reaver also has a damage chart that on pens causes more damage. Morty does not.
Basic math here.
My opponent could be fielding a Wraith Guard army, or a titan legon.
And? So? Therefore?
Both Morty and the Reaver wouldn't stand much of a chance either.
He's of similar durability to the reaver assuming AP:2 weapons are fairly common (In Apoc it will be), and S: D is uncommon (otherwise Reaver comes way ahead).
Yeah, after removing FnP, they're roughly of similar durability.
He's way less killy with the lack of S: D trashcan lids, and ranged weaponry in general.
As he should be. He's 500pts less than a titan with S: D weapons. That's called balance.
Your calculations assume a flat lack of S: D and AP:2 weapons which are a common sight in Apoc.
No, my calculations have done no such thing. If a D weapon hits and rolls a 6, Morty has a good chance of dying. The Reaver would survive, but not a whole lot better. What you continue to forget is that results 2-5 on the D weapon table still hurt the Reaver badly, but Morty ignores HALF of them with his invuln.
I love how you gave up talking about Magnus.
I didn't give up on talking about him at all. I wrote a total of four short sentence on how he'd be better with using just simple book powers. I'm not going to convince you otherwise.
I'm trying to show you that you have an awful way of determining the durability of things. You were flat out wrong on your assumptions with the Void Dragon, and you were wrong this time too. Thankfully, you dropped FnP, but you seriously need to learn to do basic levels of math to determine the durability and killiness of units.
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The reason he stopped talking about Magnus is because he is still unlikely to get his powers off and is therefore little better then a Herriden without the Bio-Cannons. The reason he won't get his powers off is nothing you can do, it's because he costs so dam many points and all his powers are Witchfires. Each of his powers costs 3 Warp Charges, that means you need to roll 6 dice on average to get one of your powers off, more if you want a better then 50% of going off. That means that to deny his powers the opponent needs to roll 18 dice to negate all warp charges, which sounds like a lot, until you realize how many charges someone gets for 1000pts. If you are targetting a unit with a Psyker in or with Adamantium Will they only need 9 Dice. Psychic Apocalypse characters simply don't work anymore.
Just wondering why does Mortarion get a better invul save then the rest of them? Is there anywere in the fluff that says he has better protection magic wise then the rest? I'd imagine that his toughness would be whats protects him, am i missing something fluff wise or is it ''Screw fluff, lets buff him up''?
An invulnerable save is taken if you cant take an armor save. You don't take both.
I'm well aware how the basic functions of saves work. Nowhere have I alluded to any different.
The + at the end of an invul save of 3+ implies the ability to reroll 1s.
No, I just explained to you what the + means. Go read the forums or any blog on the internet. A 3++ means a 3+ invulnerable save, nothing more.
FNP also cant be used if I already failed a save. Same with invul.
What? That's the entire point of a FnP save! If you couldn't take a FnP save after failing a save, you'd never be able to take them!
I can only assume you're trying to say that he has an answer to most things adding to his effective wound count, but that's not a reliable way to calc.
That is absolutely a reliable way to compare durability! You can't tailor a specific scenario where one is more durable than the other and draw conclusions from it. As an example, calculate how many wounds from a S10 AP2 weapon would be required to kill both.
For Morty, you'd 4 wounds after hits to peel of a single wound. For the Reaver, you'd need 2. The Reaver also has a damage chart that on pens causes more damage. Morty does not.
Basic math here.
My opponent could be fielding a Wraith Guard army, or a titan legon.
And? So? Therefore?
Both Morty and the Reaver wouldn't stand much of a chance either.
He's of similar durability to the reaver assuming AP:2 weapons are fairly common (In Apoc it will be), and S: D is uncommon (otherwise Reaver comes way ahead).
Yeah, after removing FnP, they're roughly of similar durability.
He's way less killy with the lack of S: D trashcan lids, and ranged weaponry in general.
As he should be. He's 500pts less than a titan with S: D weapons. That's called balance.
Your calculations assume a flat lack of S: D and AP:2 weapons which are a common sight in Apoc.
No, my calculations have done no such thing. If a D weapon hits and rolls a 6, Morty has a good chance of dying. The Reaver would survive, but not a whole lot better. What you continue to forget is that results 2-5 on the D weapon table still hurt the Reaver badly, but Morty ignores HALF of them with his invuln.
I love how you gave up talking about Magnus.
I didn't give up on talking about him at all. I wrote a total of four short sentence on how he'd be better with using just simple book powers. I'm not going to convince you otherwise.
I'm trying to show you that you have an awful way of determining the durability of things. You were flat out wrong on your assumptions with the Void Dragon, and you were wrong this time too. Thankfully, you dropped FnP, but you seriously need to learn to do basic levels of math to determine the durability and killiness of units.
Oh feth that's right!!!
S: D doesn't ignore invuls anymore.
And now GCs are far more powerful than vehicles again. The "balance" has been restored.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: The reason he stopped talking about Magnus is because he is still unlikely to get his powers off and is therefore little better then a Herriden without the Bio-Cannons. The reason he won't get his powers off is nothing you can do, it's because he costs so dam many points and all his powers are Witchfires. Each of his powers costs 3 Warp Charges, that means you need to roll 6 dice on average to get one of your powers off, more if you want a better then 50% of going off. That means that to deny his powers the opponent needs to roll 18 dice to negate all warp charges, which sounds like a lot, until you realize how many charges someone gets for 1000pts. If you are targetting a unit with a Psyker in or with Adamantium Will they only need 9 Dice. Psychic Apocalypse characters simply don't work anymore.
Just wondering why does Mortarion get a better invul save then the rest of them? Is there anywere in the fluff that says he has better protection magic wise then the rest? I'd imagine that his toughness would be whats protects him, am i missing something fluff wise or is it ''Screw fluff, lets buff him up''?
The first part is fixed. Done by basically returning the way Magnus' uses his powers to 6th edition.
Mortarion has better defense in general. Maybe I should drop it back to a 4+.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/08 21:37:42
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
Also X+ = Armour Save. X++ = Invulnerable Save. X+++ = Feel No Pain. X++++ = IWND. As for Mortarion being 1-shotted, that feels extremely unlikely. Lets do the math. Assuming you are hit with a D-Weapon, he then has to roll a 6. 16%. Then he has to roll a 4+. 8%. Then you have to fail 10 5+ Feel No Pain saves, I am not sure how to work that out, but i am sure it puts the percentage at about 3-ish% maybe? On the other hand i would also agree, Mortarion isn't worth 1000pts. You should make each of them Psykers (I know Mortarion Hates Psykers, but he is still a Daemon) with access to either their gods lore or the rulebook powers that go with their god (Telepathy=Slaanesh, Div=Tzeentch, Biomancy=Nurgle) to help sure up the points.
Just looking at Magnus the Red, I'm already disliking this. I'll deconstruct my problems with him:
Problem #1: His Stat Line and unit type make him indestructible. For 250 Points more, he's much harder to kill than a Tyranid Heirophant, by several orders of magnitude. In order to even have a decent chance at wounding him, you need S8+, AP2, and Skyfire. Destroyer Weapons can't do jack against him, because there aren't any Destroyer Weapons with Skyfire and only a couple that can even fire at him, because most are blasts. With T9 and 8 Wounds, 2+4++, plus IWND and Feel No Pain for being a Gargantuan creature, he is never, ever, ever going to die. Ever. In order to even get a chance at killing him, you'd have to get a wound with shooting (Somehow), ground him (A 1/3rd chance), Assault him, lock him in combat for exactly two rounds of combat, and then blast him with Destroyer weapons before he can fly away again.
Problem #2: The way his powers work. It craps all over the current Psychic phase. If his Psychic Powers work completely different than everyone else and are impossible to deny, why bother having him use them as Psychic Powers at all? With only a 1/12th chance of Failure and an entirely different system for using them, you might as well just say 'Magnus can use two of the following abilities during the shooting phase,' and not bother having them as Psychic powers.
Also, if he can only be denied by Gargantuan Creatures and Super Heavies, how does that work? Do they use Warp Charges to deny, like other Psykers? Or do they deny like you did in 6th Edition? You can't just change around the edition rules you are using to make someone OP.
Problem #3: His buffing of other Psykers is ridiculously OP. If you are playing a Tzeentch army and surround him with Psykers, you are looking at 10-20 free Warp Charges per turn, which is just plain stupid.
Problem #4: All of his Psychic Powers are Witchfires... Really? The most powerful Psyker in the galaxy can only use his strength to throw firebombs?
If Magnus the Red is really the top-dog of all Psykers in the galaxy, he should actually WORK LIKE A PSYKER. Have him generate a ridiculous number of warp charges, sure. Let him cast multiple Witchfires, sure. But in the end, he should just work like a Psyker. You'd be better off picking one of the strongest Psykers from the main Codex's, taking a look at how they work, and then just boosting up their stats.
Here's some potential ideas for a much better Magnus:
Master of the Disciplines: Magnus the Red generates 1 power from every Discipline. To choose this power, roll 3 Dice and pick the result you want. (Re-rolling duplicates.) He also generates the Primaris of each Discipline for free (Excluding Sanctic Daemonology), and may choose one power from the following chart: (The chart being the powers you made up.)
Heqa Staff: When casting Psychic Powers, all Warp Charges used by Magnus the Red pass on a 3+ instead of a 4+. Additionally, once per turn, Magnus the Red may reroll one of his attempts to manifest a power.
Additionally, the Heqa Staff is a Force Weapon. If Magnus the Red casts Force, however, it instead gains +3 Strength, Armorbane, Fleshbane, and the Instant Death Special Rule.
Blessing of the God of Sorcerers: When rolling to generate Warp Charges, roll 3D6 instead of 1D6. The player controlling Magnus the Red gets a number of Warp Charges equal to the highest result, and the opposing player gets a number of Warp Charges equal to the lowest result.
The Sorcerer King: Magnus the Red generates 10 Warp Charges per turn, always passes Deny the Witch on a roll of 2+, and any successful Deny The Witch rolls taken against powers manifested by him must be re-rolled. Additionally, he may manifest as many Witchfires per turn as he has available to him, so long as Warp Charges remain.
And, for a better Stat-Line:
WS 7
BS 8
S 8
T 7
W 7
I 6
A 6
Ld 10
Sv 3+ 4++
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress 
, 