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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 14:50:37
Subject: Helldrake's neck fixed
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Fresh-Faced New User
Quebec, Qc
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Deleted
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/09 02:43:18
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 15:03:21
Subject: Helldrake's neck fixed
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Repentia Mistress
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Well I am impressed! Rules aside, I think it'll be cool for the hell drake to have so many poses.
Did you have to place the magnets in specific locations to allow the poses you want or did you just slot ten randomly?
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DS:70+S+G+M-B--IPw40k94-D+++A++/wWD380R+T(D)DM+
Avatar scene by artist Nicholas Kay. Give credit where it's due! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 15:07:22
Subject: Helldrake's neck fixed
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Longtime Dakkanaut
United States of America
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Regardless of rule abuse (because I don't care) it doesn't affect the heldrake that much. A 45(d) arc and then you place the template 12" out and anywhere you want touching the 12" line means that you have around 270(d) arc of fire which is still more then any other flyer. When me or my brother play CSM we always take 2 heldrakes, even now because they are still the second best flyer in the game when it comes to survival and damage output.
All I can say is, was it worth the time to give you an extra inch on the template?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 15:16:44
Subject: Re:Helldrake's neck fixed
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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If you local group is fine with that, great. But, if your local group believes that it is RAW and playing by the rules, then you should kindly enlighten them and certainly don't expect that to fly at any semi serious tournament.
Modeling for Advantage. I haven't found the exact quote in the 7th book yet, but its been a core concept for at least the last three editions since I've been playing. If you purposefully change how a model is modeled to give yourself an advantage you are against the spirit of the rules and should not be rewarded for such behaviour. Now, I think its cool, and greatly for a model, but playing it that way for an advantage is not right.
CMS FAQ: "Treat the Helldrake's ranged weapon as a hull mounted weapon....."
If you were playing me, I would very politely and professionally call over the TO. Point out that the model is modeled for advantage and then I would point them to the FAQ which clearly states how we treat that weapon as ask that the weapon be played as the rules clearly and without question state. And then the TO would quickly and correctly agree with me and we'd move on and play our game. Depending on your temperament it may result in you being salty and lead to a less than enjoyable game for both of us.
Now, in a friendly game, I'd probably let it fly, so long as you accepted that what you were playing was not legal and that we were making an rules exception for you.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 15:21:09
Subject: Helldrake's neck fixed
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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First of all, amazing job. You did a very time-intensive job with lots of detail work and the end result is really satisfying. Well done!
On the other hand...if you showed up with the model on a tournament without showing the model to the TO or a referee first, I would either:
a) give you a Yellow Card and ask you to immediately replace the model with another non-customized model, or else...
b) give you a Red Card because you changed a model to give you an advantage on the battlefield.
In a friendly match, tell your opponent about your modifications BEFORE the match. Always before.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 16:52:14
Subject: Helldrake's neck fixed
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Dour Wolf Priest with Iron Wolf Amulet
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Looks awesome, but totally agreed - MFA. Really though, is a hull mounted torrent weapon not enough already?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 17:07:16
Subject: Helldrake's neck fixed
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Fresh-Faced New User
Quebec, Qc
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Thx guys for the reply.
It seems the idea of a dragon that can move is neck doesn't fly with all of you, I may scrap the idea so I can be legit. I didn't want to abuse the rule, just to make it realistic. The idea of a dragon not able to move his long neck like a dragon seems illogic, but well, it's a plastic game right. So I'll find a cool pose and make it fix.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 17:12:27
Subject: Helldrake's neck fixed
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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I think it's cool, but it doesn't change that it's been ruled as a hull-mounted weapon, no amount of dexterity in the neck will increase it's firing arc over 45 degrees.
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Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 17:17:04
Subject: Helldrake's neck fixed
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Not mfa anymore than glueing a sponson mounted gun into one position is mfd, I agree that it's head and neck should be movable but the designers didn't make it that way for one reason or another (prob would mean more parts thus higher cost) I'd be fine with you useing it.
My ravenwing are boned
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 19:11:13
Subject: Helldrake's neck fixed
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Lesser Daemon of Chaos
The Eye of Terror
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I have a BIG problem with the MFA rule, particularly because I've seen IG units modeled on their bellies and shooting at peoples ankles and then hearing some asshatery debate about "Well if they're lying down behind the Aegis then you can't see them" and a whole slew of problems comes up from MFA.
THAT SAID, I don't think making the Heldrakes neck articulate necessarily counts as MFA. That aside, I also have to ask this question about "hull mounted" for Heldrake as well...where is the "hull" on the Heldrake?
If the Heldrake is a dragon with a broken neck, then the mouth is the "hull." But if you're looking at the dragon entirely, then you'd argue the "hull" is on its body, so the neck should still be able to articulate at least 45*, which does give the mouth a greater firing arc since its farther out.
The language being used here is incredibly confusing. The Heldrake is a biomechanical dragon, not really a "flier" the way Vendetta's or anyone else is. In fact, their delivery systems are very obviously placed, as are their firing arcs and what not. But the initial pose of the Heldrake has its neck bent sideways and down, and it's posed as if in action. So if it has that kind of action, then articulating the neck should be part of that action and we get back to "So where do we start measuring from?
-brings out the dead horse- If GW wanted to make this simple, they would say 180* off the base. Draw a line horizontal to the Heldrakes body that bisects the Neck and Body, and anything behind that line cannot be hit, regardless of torrent positioning, since torrent says the template small end must be pointed towards the drake, and "flaming" outwards.
I will still argue that they did this nerf so the Heldrake couldn't nuke things it just flew over, and keeping a 180* arc that can't shoot backwards does exactly what the rules and GW intended without making a mockery of the model itself.
Here is a better example of this ridiculousness.
I've seen talk about the Tyranid Hive Crone and how it's having problems too. Kind of similar to the Heldrake, but it doesn't have nearly as nice of fixing as the Heldrake does. But it has no neck and can fire backwards over targets its passed.
HOW THE HELL IS THIS POSSIBLE?
The short answer is, because he doesn't have a torrent weapon. But this doesn't make any sense. Does this mean the Drool Cannon can shoot out its ass or something? Or maybe its stomach just rips open and it does a spray run like firefighting aircraft?
It's just a little inconsistent and ridiculous, but I'm willing to let the Crone have it if we can be a little more consistent and less ridiculous about the Heldrake.
Since we're getting to realistic, I'd also like to point this out about the Heldrake. I dunno about the rest of you, but my Heldrakes forward talons are right next to his head, so a 180* firing arc is considerably more difficult than that. So if we had to compromise, 90* would be the bare minimum.
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"Well there's something I've been meaning to tell you about the college on the edge of the town. No one should ever go there. You know it's bad, bad, bad. It gets worse every school year, but man those freaking teachers are raaaaad! Yea-YEAH-yeah yeah." -Babycakes - China, Il.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/559359.page#6178253 <--Link to my CSM Army lists. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 19:18:02
Subject: Helldrake's neck fixed
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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TheRedWingArmada wrote:I have a BIG problem with the MFA rule, particularly because I've seen IG units modeled on their bellies and shooting at peoples ankles and then hearing some asshatery debate about "Well if they're lying down behind the Aegis then you can't see them" and a whole slew of problems comes up from MFA.
THAT SAID, I don't think making the Heldrakes neck articulate necessarily counts as MFA. That aside, I also have to ask this question about "hull mounted" for Heldrake as well...where is the "hull" on the Heldrake?
If the Heldrake is a dragon with a broken neck, then the mouth is the "hull." But if you're looking at the dragon entirely, then you'd argue the "hull" is on its body, so the neck should still be able to articulate at least 45*, which does give the mouth a greater firing arc since its farther out.
The language being used here is incredibly confusing. The Heldrake is a biomechanical dragon, not really a "flier" the way Vendetta's or anyone else is. In fact, their delivery systems are very obviously placed, as are their firing arcs and what not. But the initial pose of the Heldrake has its neck bent sideways and down, and it's posed as if in action. So if it has that kind of action, then articulating the neck should be part of that action and we get back to "So where do we start measuring from?
-brings out the dead horse- If GW wanted to make this simple, they would say 180* off the base. Draw a line horizontal to the Heldrakes body that bisects the Neck and Body, and anything behind that line cannot be hit, regardless of torrent positioning, since torrent says the template small end must be pointed towards the drake, and "flaming" outwards.
I will still argue that they did this nerf so the Heldrake couldn't nuke things it just flew over, and keeping a 180* arc that can't shoot backwards does exactly what the rules and GW intended without making a mockery of the model itself.
Here is a better example of this ridiculousness.
I've seen talk about the Tyranid Hive Crone and how it's having problems too. Kind of similar to the Heldrake, but it doesn't have nearly as nice of fixing as the Heldrake does. But it has no neck and can fire backwards over targets its passed.
HOW THE HELL IS THIS POSSIBLE?
The short answer is, because he doesn't have a torrent weapon. But this doesn't make any sense. Does this mean the Drool Cannon can shoot out its ass or something? Or maybe its stomach just rips open and it does a spray run like firefighting aircraft?
It's just a little inconsistent and ridiculous, but I'm willing to let the Crone have it if we can be a little more consistent and less ridiculous about the Heldrake.
Since we're getting to realistic, I'd also like to point this out about the Heldrake. I dunno about the rest of you, but my Heldrakes forward talons are right next to his head, so a 180* firing arc is considerably more difficult than that. So if we had to compromise, 90* would be the bare minimum.
Your opinion doesn't matter, nor does any counter arguments. It has been clearly and explicitly been ruled as Hull Mounted, which has a clear and explicit definition in the rules.
The matter is settled.
As to your guard comment, count it as being a normal standing guard model for LOS purposes, because modeling it laying down is technically MFA.
The Helldrakes is MFA only if he tries to move the head to increase it's firing arc. If he does not it's just cool.
Rules are the rules, you are free to play things how you want, but don't try and convince others it's by the rules.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 19:21:04
Subject: Helldrake's neck fixed
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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As far as lying down behind an ADL is concerned, fine, I can't shoot you, but it means you can't shoot me either.
Can't have it both ways.
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 19:29:39
Subject: Re:Helldrake's neck fixed
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Zagman wrote:If you local group is fine with that, great. But, if your local group believes that it is RAW and playing by the rules, then you should kindly enlighten them and certainly don't expect that to fly at any semi serious tournament.
Modeling for Advantage. I haven't found the exact quote in the 7th book yet, but its been a core concept for at least the last three editions since I've been playing. If you purposefully change how a model is modeled to give yourself an advantage you are against the spirit of the rules and should not be rewarded for such behaviour. Now, I think its cool, and greatly for a model, but playing it that way for an advantage is not right.
CMS FAQ: "Treat the Helldrake's ranged weapon as a hull mounted weapon....."
If you were playing me, I would very politely and professionally call over the TO. Point out that the model is modeled for advantage and then I would point them to the FAQ which clearly states how we treat that weapon as ask that the weapon be played as the rules clearly and without question state. And then the TO would quickly and correctly agree with me and we'd move on and play our game. Depending on your temperament it may result in you being salty and lead to a less than enjoyable game for both of us.
Now, in a friendly game, I'd probably let it fly, so long as you accepted that what you were playing was not legal and that we were making an rules exception for you.
^ This. I wish everyone was like this. If it were so, every game would be fun.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 19:32:05
Subject: Helldrake's neck fixed
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Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian
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It looks sweet being able to put the head in whatever position you like, you have put some good effort into it, plus it makes logical sense. I'd let you play it!
If in a competitive tournament I can see maybe why people would be annoyed by it.
But you know what - the rule of awsome wins out here!
If somebody doesn't let you use it in a friendly they have probably forgotten that it is a hobby meant to be for fun. They are definitely putting the winning before the having fun otherwise!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 19:58:29
Subject: Re:Helldrake's neck fixed
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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Nuln_Oil wrote: Zagman wrote:If you local group is fine with that, great. But, if your local group believes that it is RAW and playing by the rules, then you should kindly enlighten them and certainly don't expect that to fly at any semi serious tournament.
Modeling for Advantage. I haven't found the exact quote in the 7th book yet, but its been a core concept for at least the last three editions since I've been playing. If you purposefully change how a model is modeled to give yourself an advantage you are against the spirit of the rules and should not be rewarded for such behaviour. Now, I think its cool, and greatly for a model, but playing it that way for an advantage is not right.
CMS FAQ: "Treat the Helldrake's ranged weapon as a hull mounted weapon....."
If you were playing me, I would very politely and professionally call over the TO. Point out that the model is modeled for advantage and then I would point them to the FAQ which clearly states how we treat that weapon as ask that the weapon be played as the rules clearly and without question state. And then the TO would quickly and correctly agree with me and we'd move on and play our game. Depending on your temperament it may result in you being salty and lead to a less than enjoyable game for both of us.
Now, in a friendly game, I'd probably let it fly, so long as you accepted that what you were playing was not legal and that we were making an rules exception for you.
^ This. I wish everyone was like this. If it were so, every game would be fun.
Lol thanks. I'm a pretty competitive guy and I have to remind myself to breath and have fun. I get too caught up in playing by the rules!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 20:07:15
Subject: Helldrake's neck fixed
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Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian
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Which is fair enough if you play in a competative environment where people will jump on things like MFA. It all depends on your gaming group.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 20:43:35
Subject: Helldrake's neck fixed
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Honored Helliarch on Hypex
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The helldrake's neck cannot physically articulate. This is probably because of practical reasons relating to efficiency of production, transit, and assembly.
To account for the fact that the Helldrake cannot physically move its neck, GW has provided it with the torrent rule to give it a degree of freedom in placing its flamer that it would not otherwise have.
In prior FAQs, the Helldrake was further ruled as having a turret-mounted flamer. This allowed it to do crazy things like laying down the flamer directly behind it. GW has changed the weapon back to a hull-mounted weapon to prevent this.
This is a really cool modeling idea, but I'd insist on the helldrake's neck remaining stationary for the duration of any competitive games. Friendly games can and will set their own rules and that's fine.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 20:57:09
Subject: Re:Helldrake's neck fixed
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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I think people need to get their collective panties unbunched about "modeling for advantage"
Every riptide I've seen at a tournament was a breakdancing master, some of them barely taller than a dreadnought. But because you can remove the little pin this is totally legitimate.
Someone magnetizes the head on a heldrake (which has a ball join in the first place) so he can actually pivot the neck to not lose out on shooting things due to the derpy positioning of the model's neck and the legions appear to trounce his creativity. gg dudes, gg.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 21:00:23
Subject: Re:Helldrake's neck fixed
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Fixture of Dakka
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Op: Don't let your hard work go to waste! Play it as others are stating (hull mounted), but leave the head so you can still articulate it!
I don't see a problem using it as intended, but also adding a little character as well. You could display it with more Dynamic poses if nothing else!
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"But i'm more than just a little curious, how you're planning to go about making your amends, to the dead?" -The Noose-APC
"Little angel go away
Come again some other day
The devil has my ear today
I'll never hear a word you say" Weak and Powerless - APC
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 21:27:28
Subject: Re:Helldrake's neck fixed
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Monstrously Massive Big Mutant
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StarHunter25 wrote:I think people need to get their collective panties unbunched about "modeling for advantage"
Every riptide I've seen at a tournament was a breakdancing master, some of them barely taller than a dreadnought. But because you can remove the little pin this is totally legitimate.
Someone magnetizes the head on a heldrake (which has a ball join in the first place) so he can actually pivot the neck to not lose out on shooting things due to the derpy positioning of the model's neck and the legions appear to trounce his creativity. gg dudes, gg.
I can totally attest to this and even recall a man at Adepticon call people over to look at a Tau players Riptides who by all rights were 1 1/2 inches leaned back and weighted down, in dynamic posses that not only made them stupidly hard to spot, but easily modeling for advantage. A regulator stated there that as long as the model is still on its base, it was considered fine. A massive gak storm insued. I've seen Wraith Knights in the same poses where they're trying to make the bloody things look like they're running like some anime character with his nose near the damn board. And that gak was apparently legal too.
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Life: An incomprehensible, endless circle of involuntary self-destruction.
12,000
14,000
11,000
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 21:32:18
Subject: Helldrake's neck fixed
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Disguised Speculo
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I just say "treat it as an unmodified model" when it comes to MFA.
Breakdancing Riptide is the size of a standing riptide. Poseable helldrake doesn't gain any advantage.
In one game, I had small flesh hounds simply because they were a cheap substitute. A guy used the fact he couldn't see the smaller models (where he would see normal) because of an intervening wall, but could see my jugger herald as a way to cheesily focus fire him to death. I was not impressed.
Regardless of whether the advantage is for you or for the opponent, MFA is not cool.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 21:41:56
Subject: Re:Helldrake's neck fixed
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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GoliothOnline wrote:StarHunter25 wrote:I think people need to get their collective panties unbunched about "modeling for advantage"
Every riptide I've seen at a tournament was a breakdancing master, some of them barely taller than a dreadnought. But because you can remove the little pin this is totally legitimate.
Someone magnetizes the head on a heldrake (which has a ball join in the first place) so he can actually pivot the neck to not lose out on shooting things due to the derpy positioning of the model's neck and the legions appear to trounce his creativity. gg dudes, gg.
I can totally attest to this and even recall a man at Adepticon call people over to look at a Tau players Riptides who by all rights were 1 1/2 inches leaned back and weighted down, in dynamic posses that not only made them stupidly hard to spot, but easily modeling for advantage. A regulator stated there that as long as the model is still on its base, it was considered fine. A massive gak storm insued. I've seen Wraith Knights in the same poses where they're trying to make the bloody things look like they're running like some anime character with his nose near the damn board. And that gak was apparently legal too.
Every TO / ref has to make his own calls. If you are correct and Adepticon seems to favor lax rules, that's their decision.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 22:32:02
Subject: Re:Helldrake's neck fixed
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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StarHunter25 wrote:I think people need to get their collective panties unbunched about "modeling for advantage"
Every riptide I've seen at a tournament was a breakdancing master, some of them barely taller than a dreadnought. But because you can remove the little pin this is totally legitimate.
Someone magnetizes the head on a heldrake (which has a ball join in the first place) so he can actually pivot the neck to not lose out on shooting things due to the derpy positioning of the model's neck and the legions appear to trounce his creativity. gg dudes, gg.
I have Triptide, and one is posed off to the side. The other two are in the stock GW poses, standing and kneeling. The breakdancing one leans off to tone side but is just at tall as GW's stock kneeling pose. It is only MFD as it is more difficult to hide than a perfectly legal and GW supplied pose.
The Helldrake on the other hand is MFA as the FAQ clearly states how we determine its arc of fire. To ignore that is blatant cheating in a competitive sense. The Riptide Poses is a much larger gray area. I've seen some modeled to a huge Advantage, in that case you are well within your rights to as that it be treated as an unmodified model of its type.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 23:03:15
Subject: Helldrake's neck fixed
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I like the model, but if you were to bring something modelled for advantage to a game against me, expect boarding planks and wrecking balls on extendible telescopic arms. I don't care if you're 48" away, you're being boarded now!
don't stop the cool conversion, just use it as a hull mounted weapon regardless of what the neck can physically do!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 00:45:09
Subject: Helldrake's neck fixed
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Krazed Killa Kan
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Yah. Wicked idea. I mean just cool bro. Rule of Cool makes it promoted in a friendly against me. Turret all the way. Tournament play. No way 45 up down left right. Great idea though!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 01:36:29
Subject: Re:Helldrake's neck fixed
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Surely the riptides that have been edited have a disadvantage as well?
Their line of sight has been shortened. With this heldrake there is only positives
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 02:00:02
Subject: Helldrake's neck fixed
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I don't think playing a Decepticon is allowed at any store.
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The 7th Edition FAQ is out!
Pink Horrors can summon.
Daemon Factory is legal! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 04:56:35
Subject: Helldrake's neck fixed
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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some bloke wrote:don't stop the cool conversion, just use it as a hull mounted weapon regardless of what the neck can physically do!
^ This
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Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 08:19:19
Subject: Re:Helldrake's neck fixed
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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As long its for apperance only, its perfectly fine, looks awesome even.
But you should play as the rules are ATM, meaning that when you come to shoot-you do it in 45 degrees from the center at most, like any hull mounted gun.
A model can allow itself to look better then the rules are given, as long the rules are still followed.
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can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 08:36:30
Subject: Helldrake's neck fixed
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Sneaky Lictor
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It seems that this thread has gotten to more of a rules debate than anything.
I love what you did with the model. Good hard work will always pay off. Doesn't discount the fact that the rules aren't representative of the fluff/model.
TheRedWingArmada wrote:I have a BIG problem with the MFA rule, particularly because I've seen IG units modeled on their bellies and shooting at peoples ankles and then hearing some asshatery debate about "Well if they're lying down behind the Aegis then you can't see them" and a whole slew of problems comes up from MFA.
THAT SAID, I don't think making the Heldrakes neck articulate necessarily counts as MFA. That aside, I also have to ask this question about "hull mounted" for Heldrake as well...where is the "hull" on the Heldrake?
If the Heldrake is a dragon with a broken neck, then the mouth is the "hull." But if you're looking at the dragon entirely, then you'd argue the "hull" is on its body, so the neck should still be able to articulate at least 45*, which does give the mouth a greater firing arc since its farther out.
The language being used here is incredibly confusing. The Heldrake is a biomechanical dragon, not really a "flier" the way Vendetta's or anyone else is. In fact, their delivery systems are very obviously placed, as are their firing arcs and what not. But the initial pose of the Heldrake has its neck bent sideways and down, and it's posed as if in action. So if it has that kind of action, then articulating the neck should be part of that action and we get back to "So where do we start measuring from?
-brings out the dead horse- If GW wanted to make this simple, they would say 180* off the base. Draw a line horizontal to the Heldrakes body that bisects the Neck and Body, and anything behind that line cannot be hit, regardless of torrent positioning, since torrent says the template small end must be pointed towards the drake, and "flaming" outwards.
I will still argue that they did this nerf so the Heldrake couldn't nuke things it just flew over, and keeping a 180* arc that can't shoot backwards does exactly what the rules and GW intended without making a mockery of the model itself.
Here is a better example of this ridiculousness.
I've seen talk about the Tyranid Hive Crone and how it's having problems too. Kind of similar to the Heldrake, but it doesn't have nearly as nice of fixing as the Heldrake does. But it has no neck and can fire backwards over targets its passed.
HOW THE HELL IS THIS POSSIBLE?
The short answer is, because he doesn't have a torrent weapon. But this doesn't make any sense. Does this mean the Drool Cannon can shoot out its ass or something? Or maybe its stomach just rips open and it does a spray run like firefighting aircraft?
It's just a little inconsistent and ridiculous, but I'm willing to let the Crone have it if we can be a little more consistent and less ridiculous about the Heldrake.
Since we're getting to realistic, I'd also like to point this out about the Heldrake. I dunno about the rest of you, but my Heldrakes forward talons are right next to his head, so a 180* firing arc is considerably more difficult than that. So if we had to compromise, 90* would be the bare minimum.
I think people have forgotten. Remember, the rulebook goes through quite a thourough explanation of models being representative of a dynamic battle. Models can ONLY be statically represented. Simply put, when on bases, the model is a static, spacial representation of a model in battle. The Hive Crone, for example, has a weapon that mimics a flamer. A flamer isn't limited to shooting in a 45 degree arc in front of an infantry model. Just like a man armed with a flamethrower IRL doesn't have to shoot it in a single direction. Whats to prevent a large flying creature (with likeness to a dragon) to spin in midair, while spitting a burst of flames over a target slightly behind it? (See digital animations of movies like The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug). I'm not saying that a Helldrake shouldn't be able to do that, it would probably significantly change the unit more than they desire.
I think that the real point is that GW granted the Helldrake (in the form of the Baleflamer) a weapon that was MUCH more powerful than they intended. Without changing the core rules of the weapon, they are slightly modifying the rules of the unit. I don't think that is the correct way to solve the issue, but they tried right?
Anyways, good job with the effort!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/09 08:50:40
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