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Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Not really, the heldrake follow vehicle rules, the crone does not.

Drakes are daemon engines, but in the end-still engines. not the most flexible thing, and to say they are as flexible as their biological counterparts would be...silly.
Especially in 40k where machines are clunky and stiff.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
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Apprehensive Inquisitorial Apprentice



The Netherlands

roxor08 wrote:

I think people have forgotten. Remember, the rulebook goes through quite a thourough explanation of models being representative of a dynamic battle. Models can ONLY be statically represented. Simply put, when on bases, the model is a static, spacial representation of a model in battle. The Hive Crone, for example, has a weapon that mimics a flamer. A flamer isn't limited to shooting in a 45 degree arc in front of an infantry model. Just like a man armed with a flamethrower IRL doesn't have to shoot it in a single direction. Whats to prevent a large flying creature (with likeness to a dragon) to spin in midair, while spitting a burst of flames over a target slightly behind it? (See digital animations of movies like The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug). I'm not saying that a Helldrake shouldn't be able to do that, it would probably significantly change the unit more than they desire.


Isn't the Helldrake also able to go into Hover mode? If so than this would represent it spinning in the air (since you aren't limited by the 90 degree turn you are when you fly like a Flyer).
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Clear MFA, but it's so awesome, I'd probably play it without complaint anyways!

The first or possibly second time anyways. More if it's painted. Normally don't hold unpainted against people, but that's clear MFA. SOP would be to treat it as unmodified.
   
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Monstrous Master Moulder




Cleveland, Ohio, USA

Roxor, you really can't try and apply logic to 40k. A vindicator can shoot directly in front of it and end up killing it's own men behind it. A shadow sword is designed to fell titans, but the main gun's shot can bounce off a storm shield. Put an imperial pilot in a large machine, it's a vehicle. Put a tau pilot in a large machine, it's a monstrous creature.

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[DCM]
Moustache-twirling Princeps





Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

I think the torrent rule implies that the head can move a bit anyway. The weapon barrel is pointed at the ground, and then moved to spray along the torrent's line.
If the head moved, it can do this, but the arc shouldn't be changed.

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Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

 Zagman wrote:
 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
I have a BIG problem with the MFA rule, particularly because I've seen IG units modeled on their bellies and shooting at peoples ankles and then hearing some asshatery debate about "Well if they're lying down behind the Aegis then you can't see them" and a whole slew of problems comes up from MFA.

THAT SAID, I don't think making the Heldrakes neck articulate necessarily counts as MFA. That aside, I also have to ask this question about "hull mounted" for Heldrake as well...where is the "hull" on the Heldrake?

If the Heldrake is a dragon with a broken neck, then the mouth is the "hull." But if you're looking at the dragon entirely, then you'd argue the "hull" is on its body, so the neck should still be able to articulate at least 45*, which does give the mouth a greater firing arc since its farther out.

The language being used here is incredibly confusing. The Heldrake is a biomechanical dragon, not really a "flier" the way Vendetta's or anyone else is. In fact, their delivery systems are very obviously placed, as are their firing arcs and what not. But the initial pose of the Heldrake has its neck bent sideways and down, and it's posed as if in action. So if it has that kind of action, then articulating the neck should be part of that action and we get back to "So where do we start measuring from?

-brings out the dead horse- If GW wanted to make this simple, they would say 180* off the base. Draw a line horizontal to the Heldrakes body that bisects the Neck and Body, and anything behind that line cannot be hit, regardless of torrent positioning, since torrent says the template small end must be pointed towards the drake, and "flaming" outwards.

I will still argue that they did this nerf so the Heldrake couldn't nuke things it just flew over, and keeping a 180* arc that can't shoot backwards does exactly what the rules and GW intended without making a mockery of the model itself.

Here is a better example of this ridiculousness.

I've seen talk about the Tyranid Hive Crone and how it's having problems too. Kind of similar to the Heldrake, but it doesn't have nearly as nice of fixing as the Heldrake does. But it has no neck and can fire backwards over targets its passed.

HOW THE HELL IS THIS POSSIBLE?

The short answer is, because he doesn't have a torrent weapon. But this doesn't make any sense. Does this mean the Drool Cannon can shoot out its ass or something? Or maybe its stomach just rips open and it does a spray run like firefighting aircraft?

It's just a little inconsistent and ridiculous, but I'm willing to let the Crone have it if we can be a little more consistent and less ridiculous about the Heldrake.

Since we're getting to realistic, I'd also like to point this out about the Heldrake. I dunno about the rest of you, but my Heldrakes forward talons are right next to his head, so a 180* firing arc is considerably more difficult than that. So if we had to compromise, 90* would be the bare minimum.



Your opinion doesn't matter, nor does any counter arguments. It has been clearly and explicitly been ruled as Hull Mounted, which has a clear and explicit definition in the rules.

The matter is settled.


As to your guard comment, count it as being a normal standing guard model for LOS purposes, because modeling it laying down is technically MFA.

The Helldrakes is MFA only if he tries to move the head to increase it's firing arc. If he does not it's just cool.

Rules are the rules, you are free to play things how you want, but don't try and convince others it's by the rules.


Actually he is playing by the rules, modifying the rules are actually part of the rulebook, now at others events they can play by there own rules (such as no house rules, which in itself is a house rule) others can read what he has said and take it into account, don't try to stop others voicing there views.
   
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 BoomWolf wrote:
Not really, the heldrake follow vehicle rules, the crone does not.

Drakes are daemon engines, but in the end-still engines. not the most flexible thing, and to say they are as flexible as their biological counterparts would be...silly.
Especially in 40k where machines are clunky and stiff.



Considering these are daemon modified machines in 40k where Daemons and the Warp tell Physics to go off for a while due to the things that it can cause, to say they couldn't be more flexible then their biological counterparts would be silly.

Could you imagine a hive tyrant flying full speed, then somehow turning around and maintaining speed while flapping his wings in a way to keep him up, and shooting behind him all at the same time like he's some sort of anime character?
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




This is a really cool conversion and I thank you for the idea. I might try this on some other large-ish ball joints. To the OP, how firmly is the head held in place by the magnets? Do you think if I do similar with something like a Defiler leg ball joint that it would be able to hold the weight of the leg and/or model?

Corollax wrote:
This allowed it to do crazy things like laying down the flamer directly behind it. GW has changed the weapon back to a hull-mounted weapon to prevent this.


Yah dragon's never flame anything they pass over, that's just crazy talk...
GW probably changed it because all the internet whiners crying OP instead of just spreading out their infantry.

   
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Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

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Hold on, I'll get my popcorn.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
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Bharring wrote:
Clear MFA, but it's so awesome, I'd probably play it without complaint anyways!

The first or possibly second time anyways. More if it's painted. Normally don't hold unpainted against people, but that's clear MFA. SOP would be to treat it as unmodified.


As an Ork player, I completely agree, rule of cool trumps all! You can play that thing against me any day.


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Decrepit Dakkanaut





JubbJubbz wrote:

GW probably changed it because all the internet whiners crying OP instead of just spreading out their infantry.



Today on "I have never actually played against Helldrakes!"...

   
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 Sigvatr wrote:
JubbJubbz wrote:

GW probably changed it because all the internet whiners crying OP instead of just spreading out their infantry.



Today on "I have never actually played against Helldrakes!"...


Having used one with some frequency I'm intimately aware of just how their damage can be mitigated.
   
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Sinewy Scourge




Warrington, UK

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The Eye of Terror

The Crone has no neck. I just want to let that settle for a bit. <<

No neck, but he can drool all over his dick.

The Heldrake has an obviously articulate neck...but can't shoot left or right. lol, wut?

"Well there's something I've been meaning to tell you about the college on the edge of the town. No one should ever go there. You know it's bad, bad, bad. It gets worse every school year, but man those freaking teachers are raaaaad! Yea-YEAH-yeah yeah." -Babycakes - China, Il.

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 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
The Crone has no neck. I just want to let that settle for a bit. <<

No neck, but he can drool all over his dick.

The Heldrake has an obviously articulate neck...but can't shoot left or right. lol, wut?


Crone is anFMC, Helldrake is a vehicle, different rules for different unit types. I personally always though it should have been and FMC. IT has so many special rules tacked on to make it act like one, with none of the down sides.
   
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Monstrously Massive Big Mutant





Canada

barnowl wrote:
 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
The Crone has no neck. I just want to let that settle for a bit. <<

No neck, but he can drool all over his dick.

The Heldrake has an obviously articulate neck...but can't shoot left or right. lol, wut?


Crone is anFMC, Helldrake is a vehicle, different rules for different unit types. I personally always though it should have been and FMC. IT has so many special rules tacked on to make it act like one, with none of the down sides.



So.... In other words, we can expect the Heldrake to turn into a T6 FMC in the near future right? I mean, it's only fitting the Dragon actually BE one

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Sinewy Scourge




Warrington, UK

It's not a FMC, it shouldn't have a 360 arc so yes they didn't nerf it they fixed it. I really don't see what the problem is to be fair, just place the model more carefully.

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GoliothOnline wrote:
barnowl wrote:
 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
The Crone has no neck. I just want to let that settle for a bit. <<

No neck, but he can drool all over his dick.

The Heldrake has an obviously articulate neck...but can't shoot left or right. lol, wut?


Crone is anFMC, Helldrake is a vehicle, different rules for different unit types. I personally always though it should have been and FMC. IT has so many special rules tacked on to make it act like one, with none of the down sides.



So.... In other words, we can expect the Heldrake to turn into a T6 FMC in the near future right? I mean, it's only fitting the Dragon actually BE one

A chaotic cultist can dream...


Totally would not surprise me.
   
Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland

What's funny is that it would be one of the few non-Tyranid non-Daemon MCs to actually be somewhat representative of the title "Monstrous Creature", when we have Dreadknights, Wraithlords/knights, Riptides and that Necron thing, none of which are monstrous or creatures.

What's even funnier is that Daemon Engines are the only thing in the lore that should have this ambiguity as to whether they are creatures or vehicles/robots. A Maulerfiend, for instance, is practically a metal Tyranid. I still vastly prefer them with AV and HP, though, because something like a Daemon Engine having Wounds just annoys me. See how Riptides are susceptible to poison and immune to EMP.

EDIT: I would not be surprised if they made Dreadnoughts MCs as well. At this rate, why not?
EDIT2: I'd like to clarify that I would absolutely abhor this change. I just wouldn't be surprised.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/11 03:52:58


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Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

Don't even bother trying to figure out how they decide whether something is a walker or a vehicle, I gave up after Wraithknights came out.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in au
Lady of the Lake






 Sigvatr wrote:
First of all, amazing job. You did a very time-intensive job with lots of detail work and the end result is really satisfying. Well done!

On the other hand...if you showed up with the model on a tournament without showing the model to the TO or a referee first, I would either:

a) give you a Yellow Card and ask you to immediately replace the model with another non-customized model, or else...

b) give you a Red Card because you changed a model to give you an advantage on the battlefield.

In a friendly match, tell your opponent about your modifications BEFORE the match. Always before.


"Oh that's cool that you modified it so the head can move, however that means nothing to the rules. Nice job though!"

   
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Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

^ Pretty much what any reasonable TO/referee would do.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
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Lesser Daemon of Chaos




The Eye of Terror

Shingen wrote:
It's not a FMC, it shouldn't have a 360 arc so yes they didn't nerf it they fixed it. I really don't see what the problem is to be fair, just place the model more carefully.


This is pretty much the root of the problem: "I don't see what the big deal was!"

Well you know what, two can play this game. As it's been stated over and again, I don't see what the big deal was with you mitigating your losses to 4 models from the torrent? Same thing. We need to be more strategic? No. YOU need to be more strategic. Losses is your problem, not ours. Ours problems were numerous enough without having to go and screw with our only flier that can be reduced to a wrecking ball and nothing more.

If your not playing Chaos, then no, i don't expect you to understand "what the big deal was." Especially in a Codex that was so short sighted.

Keep in mind too, that my official position was "Fine. You didn't want us roasting your Rhino protected infantry? Then give us 180 or 90*. Not this pathetic 45* that plays against the Heldrakes modeling and everything else.

You wanna know what this "fix" means for Heldrake players strategically? We get 1 pass over the enemy of our choice every 3 turns, IF you don't fly off the board first and luck out with ongoing reinforcements. That's it. We could go hover mode, and scoring helps us there, but that brings up a lot of vulnerabilities in the process, especially where shooting armies are concerned.

And how many turns does a game typically run? 4? 5 turns? So we can expect to call in a single strafing run with the Heldrake before it's used up. And we're paying for it. Not only in points but also in a Fast Attack slot that can't hit the board till turn 2 anyways.

And that's Heldrake strategy now. Which is why I'm making mine go for enemy fliers exclusively now. The Imperium gets Orbital Strikes through commands of some kind, and we get to call a Helturkey in for 4 guys TOPS, if we're talking about a skilled player.

That is how truly gross Broken-Neck Syndrome really is.

Also, ponder this for a second, going back to the FMC Hive Crone not having a neck: So as an FMC, he can perform the aileron flip that lets him drool backwards? And the daemon-possessed aerial assault vehicle cannot with it's extended neck?

Bad game, GW. Bad game.

"Well there's something I've been meaning to tell you about the college on the edge of the town. No one should ever go there. You know it's bad, bad, bad. It gets worse every school year, but man those freaking teachers are raaaaad! Yea-YEAH-yeah yeah." -Babycakes - China, Il.

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Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

Realisticly the Heldrake should have been a FMC from the beginning, with all the accompanying advantages and disadvantages.

To be fair to CSM players, it's not like they have much in the way of other competitive units.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in us
Monstrous Master Moulder




Cleveland, Ohio, USA

One turn roasting is a gross underestimation. If you've never played with 45 degree fliers, it is more than possible to keep them on and firing for 2-3 turns consecutively.

They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear. 
   
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Trustworthy Shas'vre






Wow, talk about someone talking down about a still fantastic unit just because its no longer broken. That would be like me complaining I can't attach my BuffCommander to my Riptides any more and now it is going to require Markerlight Support, strategy, and smarter planning, to really make Riptides shine.

This is possible Most games, but can be delayed during a game where it doesn't come in until T3 or 4. Remember games are 5-7 Turns long.

T2, it has a decent chance of Vector Striking something that turn and will Flame any target it wants. If enemy flyers or FMCs are on the board they are prime targets.
T3, Make your turn, Vector Strike if available. Flame target if available. If no good targets are available fly off. Vector Striking Flyers is ideal.
T4, Fly off, try another turn if applicable, may be limited by enemy mobility. Or Enter Hover Mode if absolutely necessary. Look for any Vectorstrike that leads to a Baleflame. If you flew off T3, see T2 Strategy.
T5, If you flew on, see T2 Strategy. Make Turn with Vector and Flame if applicable. If not enter Hover mode to Contest, and flame indiscriminately.
T6, If the Game continues, hover for a good target, move to contest. If no objectives Zooming is an option.
T7, See T6.

I still see alot of flexibility for that unit. Its difficult to kill, its Vector Strikes are nasty on Flyers, its Baleflamer roasts PA units and worse with a torrent flamer, and it always has the Option to Hover if it has to. Even if it flies off T3 an dT5 it will still get 3-6 Vector Strikes and 3-4 Baleflames over the course of a game it isn't destroyed.


This isn't a thread about CSM problems, its a thread about a cool model conversion for a Helldrake with an articulating head, which has been pointed out multiple times and if used in game is MFA and breaking a clear rule. Please don't whine all over the forum.

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Lost in the Warp

 obsidiankatana wrote:
One turn roasting is a gross underestimation. If you've never played with 45 degree fliers, it is more than possible to keep them on and firing for 2-3 turns consecutively.


Agreed. I always thought the 360-degree turret FAQ was a little dumb, and resulted in no tactical planning when using Helldrakes. So I never used that rule - I have yet to have had a single game where my Helldrake missed a turn of shooting because it could only fire 45. Yay, using skill and tactical planning, I mean, that's part of the reason these games are considered strategy games, right?

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Tunneling Trygon






Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland

I'm currently working on articulating a bunch of things, such as a Wraithlord. However, I'm not going to have it throw itself down behind cover so that nothing can draw LOS to it.

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 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I'm currently working on articulating a bunch of things, such as a Wraithlord. However, I'm not going to have it throw itself down behind cover so that nothing can draw LOS to it.


May as well model all TMCs as crawling out of the ground so they are only 2" high and can block LOS with everything....

Or lengthen those Tank Weapon Barrels, gotta get some extra range...

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Tunneling Trygon






Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland

Well, my point was more that a model having the capability to physically change its profile (by being articulated and being able to crouch, or by having its hull-mounted mouth weapon on a non-standard swivel) during the game is cool, but using that to manipulate the game is not.

One good thing about an articulated model is that, if the opposing player takes issue with its current pose, you can just put it back into its stock pose or a rough equivalent. It's the same logic behind keeping a hole in the bottom of a wheeled Land Speeder conversion, in case you need to check how tall it would be with the flying base.

Zagman wrote:Or lengthen those Tank Weapon Barrels, gotta get some extra range...




Seems that's covered!

EDIT: Edited for clarification!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/12 03:09:38


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