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Yeah. So Alpharius who is half the height of Angron is and like a quarter the weight is tougher. It's become exceedingly obvious they decided to make primarchs more powerful in the second, and third book.
Angron
Points: Upped to 430
[WS][BS][S][T][W][.I.][A][LD][...SV..]
[..9..][..5.][7][6][.6.][.7][6][.10][3+/4+]
Wargear: The Butcher's Nails add 1 base attack for every IC or infantry unit with the last man killed by Angron,. His base attacks may exceed 10.
Special Rules: Angron now has D3 hammer of wrath attacks on the charge

Horus Lupercal
Points: Upped to 510
[WS][BS][S][T][W][.I.][A][LD][...SV..]
[..8..][..7.][7][7][.6.][.6][6][.10][2+/3+]
Wargear: Worldbreaker is no longer unwieldy,
Special Rules: Unchanged.

Mortarion
Points: Upped to 450
[WS][BS][S][T][W][.I.][A][LD][...SV..]
[..7..][..6.][6][8][.7.][.5][5][.10][2+/4+]
Special Rules: Now has a 4+ FNP, Now has flat immunity to the special properties of poison weapons
Wargear: Unchanged

Vulkan
[WS][BS][S][T][W][.I.][A][LD][...SV..]
[..9..][..5.][7][7][.6.][.5][4][.10][2+/3+]
Wargear: Vulkan's armor now reduces the strength of the weapons it used to halve by 2, instead of halving it.
Special Rules: Unchanged

Lorgar:
[WS][BS][S][T][W][.I.][A][LD][...SV..]
[..7..][..6.][6][6][.5.][.6][5][.10][2+/4+]
Wargear: Unchanged
Special Rules:Unchanged

Konrad Curze:
[WS][BS][S][T][W][.I.][A][LD][...SV..]
[..7..][..6.][6][6][.6.][.6][5][.10][2+/4+]
Wargear: Knives are now Assault 6,
Special Rules: No more Hammer of Wrath attacks for no reason

Alpharius
Points: Changed to 350.
[WS][BS][S][T][W][.I.][A][LD][...SV..]
[..6..][..6.][5][5][.5.][.5][4][.10][2+/4+]
Wargear: Unchaned
Special Rules: Unchanged

Ferrus Manus
Points: Dropped to 425
[WS][BS][S][T][W][.I.][A][LD][...SV..]
[..8..][..7.][6][7][.6.][.4][4][.10][2+/4+]
Special Rules: Unchanged
Wargear: Unchanged

Perturabo: Unchanged

Corvus Corax: Unchanged

Why are you just buffing their stats?

More importantly, why isn't he upping their points?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
More importantly, why isn't he upping their points?

My macaw jumped on the keyboard before I was finished.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Clefty wrote:
Why are you just buffing their stats?

Manus and Alpharius got the nerf.

I think the Primarchs are fine as they are.

No changes needed.

They're fine crunch wise, and they're good representations of the fluff.

Don't fix what ain't broke.

Especially making a primarch S5/T5. Size and stature don't dictate strength and toughness.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
More importantly, why isn't he upping their points?

My macaw jumped on the keyboard before I was finished.

I think this is my favourite answer to someone questioning points values in this forum ever.

 Eldarain wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
More importantly, why isn't he upping their points?

My macaw jumped on the keyboard before I was finished.

I think this is my favourite answer to someone questioning points values in this forum ever.

Well yeah.
Before I finished typing the changes she jumped on the keyboard, and pushed a key that uploaded it.

If your argument for primarch strength is based on their size... Angron is one of the shortest primarchs, yet he's also one of the strongest.

So. "Half the weight" doesn't mean a whole lot. Magnus is the lagrest primarch by a massive degree but his physical abilities pale in comparison to many of the other Primarchs.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
If your argument for primarch strength is based on their size... Angron is one of the shortest primarchs, yet he's also one of the strongest.

So. "Half the weight" doesn't mean a whole lot. Magnus is the lagrest primarch by a massive degree but his physical abilities pale in comparison to many of the other Primarchs.

Angron also has possibly the most muscle mass of any primarch.
Just look at him on the cover of "The Butcher's Nails"
The others are ripped, but....
Jesus....
And no, not half. Alpharius is like a quarter the weight of Angron

...which has nothing to do with weight and strength, especially considering they're genetic freaks in power armour.

There's a reason FW's rules vary between 6 and 7. Its the average, where 7s represent them being above average in that department than their fellow brothers.

 Blacksails wrote:
...which has nothing to do with weight and strength, especially considering they're genetic freaks in power armour.

There's a reason FW's rules vary between 6 and 7. Its the average, where 7s represent them being above average in that department than their fellow brothers.

Muscle mass which is mass (weight) has nothing to with weight or strength?
Nothing about that sentence sounds wrong to me.
No siree Bob.

They're genetically altered superhumans, with statlines that mean a single point of strength difference is the difference between you and me, and a genetically enhanced superhuman.

S6 and T6 is perfect for every primarch, because the minimal size difference between them is not enough to warrant a huge gap in the stats.

Again, stop thinking literally. This is an all abstraction on a 10 points system. Each point is a very significant gap in ability. I seriously doubt that your interpretation of how to represent a unit in game is any better than the FW design team.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
...which has nothing to do with weight and strength, especially considering they're genetic freaks in power armour.

There's a reason FW's rules vary between 6 and 7. Its the average, where 7s represent them being above average in that department than their fellow brothers.

Muscle mass which is mass (weight) has nothing to with weight or strength?
Nothing about that sentence sounds wrong to me.
No siree Bob.

What is with the condescending quips?

 Clefty wrote:


What is with the condescending quips?

Its all he's got.

Well, that and fluff arguments. Nothing design related anyways. All of his threads boil down to this. He thinks that the designers have done a terrible job representing the characters on the table top, so he makes something totally overpowered because he read some fluff where 'X' blew up the galaxy. We point out that the whole 40k game is an abstraction, and as such, the fluff shouldn't be interpreted literally. He then defends that statement with saying our idea of the fluff is wrong.

Let alone the actual professional game designers at FW who have done a pretty excellent job of the primarchs so far.

Because obviously the mere 7' stature of Alpharius means he's clearly S5 and T5, completely disregarding his still godlike superhuman physique, above and beyond the already absurd superhuman physique of an ordinary space marine.

 Clefty wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
...which has nothing to do with weight and strength, especially considering they're genetic freaks in power armour.

There's a reason FW's rules vary between 6 and 7. Its the average, where 7s represent them being above average in that department than their fellow brothers.

Muscle mass which is mass (weight) has nothing to with weight or strength?
Nothing about that sentence sounds wrong to me.
No siree Bob.

What is with the condescending quips?

Nothing Curran, Peregrine or a variety of other members wouldn't take farther.
I sounded insulting, because implying the above to be true is plum loco.

You have not made a contribution since you started posting, none of your rules have been anything other than self entitled fan spank, which is made worse by how you treat members of this forum with more EXPERIENCE than you.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Clefty wrote:


What is with the condescending quips?

Its all he's got.

Well, that and fluff arguments. Nothing design related anyways. All of his threads boil down to this. He thinks that the designers have done a terrible job representing the characters on the table top, so he makes something totally overpowered because he read some fluff where 'X' blew up the galaxy. We point out that the whole 40k game is an abstraction, and as such, the fluff shouldn't be interpreted literally. He then defends that statement with saying our idea of the fluff is wrong.

Let alone the actual professional game designers at FW who have done a pretty excellent job of the primarchs so far.

Because obviously the mere 7' stature of Alpharius means he's clearly S5 and T5, completely disregarding his still godlike superhuman physique, above and beyond the already absurd superhuman physique of an ordinary space marine.[/quote
OP is based on a Power to Points Cost ratio.
It's hard to define this when marines come ahead of almost everything on paper, but theyre balanced table top.
Wasn't Alpharius having trouble against a normal Astartes?
The things Angron possibly literally picks his metal teeth with.
Should Alpharius (the weakest primarch) be tougher than Angron, when showings put Alpharius on above Astartes level, and Angron who actually is god like, and cuts apart dozens of astartes in a second?
The answer is no.

 Clefty wrote:
You have not made a contribution since you started posting, none of your rules have been anything other than self entitled fan spank, which is made worse by how you treat members of this forum with more EXPERIENCE than you.

Hey, this is an improvement on his normal stuff. He's just changing things like stats for no reason, you should go see his trainwrecks of characters that he makes up himself, with their game breaking special powers (literally, they don't work in the rules and he insults you when you try and help him out with that) and utterly unbalanced power levels. He doesn't seem to understand how to take input, which makes these proposed rules threads of his just a place for him to preen around his rules for everyone to see how amazing they are, yell at everyone when they don't agree with his view of things, then he goes to OT and makes threads about some random anime and becomes even more angry about comments on that, and eventually gets a brief ban (or just stops posting for a chunk of time, either way the community wins). Just ignore his threads, blacksails and I tried to help him the last time (or was it the time before) and eventually gave up. I'm surprised blacksails tried to help again, he's a more patient man/woman than I.

Weight+height = toughness.

*LOGIC*

Yeah, I've tried in three different threads this past month. Its nothing but the same.

Primordial, you have a very flawed perspective of what the statline is supposed to represent. I (and others) have tried to explain this to you in over a dozen threads now. You have continued to ignore a mountain of excellent feedback from people who are, without a doubt, better at creating balanced units or fixing units that are broken.

Further, you have failed to ever defend anything you've created with anything other than some vague fluff hand waving or justification other than 'it can be killed'.

You are as harsh and abrasive as you accuse of others of being, and wonder why everyone in your threads calls you out on it. The fact that multiple people are telling you receive feedback poorly should be telling. Its not the people giving you feedback, its you and how you respond to it. You create an atmosphere in your threads where no one feels like they can make any headway with you.

After countless posts, and over a dozen threads trying to explain to you the basic fundamentals of balance, and specifically as it pertains to 40k, you have hoisted nearly none of the feedback on board.

With specific regards to this thread, there are many, many things that need work in this game.

The primarchs are not one of them. They are all as balanced as anyone expects for something in their price range, and are all *excellent* representations and abstractions of their character as portrayed in the fluff.

You have provided no reasons why you think they need changes in the first place, and appear to just haphazardly change some stats because your own personal head canon doesn't line up with the design team.

Don't fix what ain't broke. The primarchs were not broken.

To those who have read and agreed with my posts in other threads, its appreciated. I wouldn't be posting here if I didn't genuinely want to help, but you, Primordial, make that an incredibly frustrating and difficult task.

There's a reason very few responded to your latest Emperor thread, even after bumping it a few times.

Maybe its time you read through all your threads again and actually take into consideration the piles of genuinely excellent feedback users have graciously given you.

The problem isn't me, or Peregrine, or Curran, or any other poster. Don't externalize this.

 motyak wrote:

 Clefty wrote:
You have not made a contribution since you started posting, none of your rules have been anything other than self entitled fan spank, which is made worse by how you treat members of this forum with more EXPERIENCE than you.

Hey, this is an improvement on his normal stuff. He's just changing things like stats for no reason, you should go see his trainwrecks of characters that he makes up himself, with their game breaking special powers (literally, they don't work in the rules and he insults you when you try and help him out with that) and utterly unbalanced power levels. He doesn't seem to understand how to take input, which makes these proposed rules threads of his just a place for him to preen around his rules for everyone to see how amazing they are, yell at everyone when they don't agree with his view of things, then he goes to OT and makes threads about some random anime and becomes even more angry about comments on that, and eventually gets a brief ban (or just stops posting for a chunk of time, either way the community wins). Just ignore his threads, blacksails and I tried to help him the last time (or was it the time before) and eventually gave up. I'm surprised blacksails tried to help again, he's a more patient man/woman than I.

To see how amazing they are? Dude, are you really going to make assumptions about someone you know next to nothing about? If you knew me you'd know I could give a rats furry ass what people on the on Internet think.
No. I came here to get opinions on things before I showed them to friends to see what they think on the subject.
And I've been fairly receptive to real criticism.
I think I had 3 threads out of the 40 I started in the OT be on anime.
Dude, think what you want. But don't make up gak.

If you don't care what people think on the internet, why are you here looking for opinions?

You're right. You made a few other trainwreck threads in the OT, how I could I forget those. But when 5/11 of your OT threads ended in a lock, you know you are doing something wrong. Well, a poster who thinks about how he's acting would. But I'm going to do what I did last time, and back out of your Proposed Rules threads, at least until I see you actually listening to constructive criticism. Or you bring out another hilariously incomplete set of rules that require someone who can speak left-handed-Swahili to interpret.

 motyak wrote:
Or you bring out another hilariously incomplete set of rules that require someone who can speak left-handed-Swahili to interpret.

Glorious.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Weight+height = toughness.

*LOGIC*

This is particularly funny because in the real world that's the way things work.

You lost me at "Alpharius is half the height of Angron".

You almost had me at "tougher than Angron" but, then, you know...

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Weight+height = toughness.

*LOGIC*

This is particularly funny because in the real world that's the way things work.

Oh man, you are just lost in your own special world.

This is amazing. I think we're starting to get insight behind your rationale.

You are 1000% correct, height is a crucial determinant of one's toughness.

You heard it here folks.

 motyak wrote:
You're right. You made a few other trainwreck threads in the OT, how I could I forget those. But when 5/11 of your OT threads ended in a lock, you know you are doing something wrong. Well, a poster who thinks about how he's acting would. But I'm going to do what I did last time, and back out of your Proposed Rules threads, at least until I see you actually listening to constructive criticism. Or you bring out another hilariously incomplete set of rules that require someone who can speak left-handed-Swahili to interpret.

You know now that I'm back here after a while, you instantly start tracking me down and messing with me.
What does that say about you as a person, and the amount of free time you have?
I'm curious friend, what do you do for a living? Who were you in High School and College? What do you make right now? What do you powercling?
Taking criticism: Like the magnus thread 2 pages back that ended in magnus being S:7, T:6, and ML5 with chosen powers.

Oh, are we comparing our status in life now?

Okay, I'll go first.

I'm 24 years old and recently made my first million dollars. I'm married to a supermodel and we have the sexes all the time. I can benchpress a small car and lift heavy things all the time and other manly stuffs. I was the coolest kind in high school and I'm on my way to becoming a famous pro athlete.

My name is Streetlamp LeMoose, and I am a god.

Therefore everything I post is automatically better and more important than anyone else's.

 Blacksails wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Weight+height = toughness.

*LOGIC*

This is particularly funny because in the real world that's the way things work.

Oh man, you are just lost in your own special world.

This is amazing. I think we're starting to get insight behind your rationale.

You are 1000% correct, height is a crucial determinant of one's toughness.

You heard it here folks.

Height is usually a determinant of weight, which when in a species recommended HW ratio, implies greater strength, and toughness in higher numbers.
Is Godzilla tougher than Bambi?
I'm sorry I left a hole, but there's a direct correlation