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Any psyker within 12" of a model with Shadows in the Warp has their leadership reduced by 2 and generates 1 less warp charge dice during the psychic phase.


or

Any psyker within 6" of a model with Shadows in the Warp that is casting a psychic power only successfully harness's a warp charge point on a roll of a 5+ instead of a 4+.

I personally like the first one though here my take on Shadows:
Enemy units and models within Synapse range of one or more models with the Shadow in the Warp special rule suffer a –1 penalty to their Leadership. In addition enemy Psykers who attempt to manifest a power whilst they are within Synapse range suffers Perils of the Warp on any doubles rolled.

Capture the terror inducing effect of when Tyranids are invading while also making it harder for Psykers to use their powers.

There's a difference between hard and suicidal.

I'm miffed that Mark of Tzeentch no longer makes failing a psychic test impossible. It was the perfect counter to SitW.

Both of those seem pretty OP, Eihnlazer. Warp Charge 1 Psykers would do literally nothing, and from 5+ to 4+ is a pretty huge nerf.

Archon_Zarbyrn, yours doesn't seem OP, but it does seem less fluffy. The reason Shadow in the Warp makes it tougher is because they are oppressing your access, making it harder to reach into the warp, not because they are making the spells more dangerous and unstable.

Here's my proposed change: (I actually thought of this as a replacement for Runic Weapons since their current version is stupid, but it fits here quite a bit better.)
Deny The Witch rolls taken against any spell cast within 12" of a model with Shadow in the Warp get a +1.

This seems a lot fluffier, since in this instance it is the Tyranids literally oppressing the psychic energies with their own will, blocking the psyker with their own strength while working in with the 7th Edition Psychic phase quite neatly.

with 12' range it's not easy to use it at all.

I'd like to see it changed to "You may make your opposing player reroll any of their psyker dice when rolling to cast powers, but you must abide by the second roll's results whether they are better or worse".

It gives tactical situations where maybe the opponent has successfully rolled to cast but there are two sixes. Do you want to make them suffer the perils and get their power off?

Or, do you want to make them reroll all and hope they don't take make the power but less likelihood of them periling...

Korias1004 wrote:
I'd like to see it changed to "You may make your opposing player reroll any of their psyker dice when rolling to cast powers, but you must abide by the second roll's results whether they are better or worse".

It gives tactical situations where maybe the opponent has successfully rolled to cast but there are two sixes. Do you want to make them suffer the perils and get their power off?

Or, do you want to make them reroll all and hope they don't take make the power but less likelihood of them periling...

That wording means you could only have them reroll the successful dice, essentially halving the chance of success. Unless you make them reroll *all* of their dice, you can just say 'Reroll all of those 4+s.'

Waaaghpower wrote:

Korias1004 wrote:
I'd like to see it changed to "You may make your opposing player reroll any of their psyker dice when rolling to cast powers, but you must abide by the second roll's results whether they are better or worse".

It gives tactical situations where maybe the opponent has successfully rolled to cast but there are two sixes. Do you want to make them suffer the perils and get their power off?

Or, do you want to make them reroll all and hope they don't take make the power but less likelihood of them periling...

That wording means you could only have them reroll the successful dice, essentially halving the chance of success. Unless you make them reroll *all* of their dice, you can just say 'Reroll all of those 4+s.'

That would be the point. SitW should make it harder for a power to go off. I frankly think we shouldn't get "psychic powers" myself, but it should be nigh impossible to get psychic powers off fighting tyranids.

Fluffy wise at least.

Korias1004 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Korias1004 wrote:
I'd like to see it changed to "You may make your opposing player reroll any of their psyker dice when rolling to cast powers, but you must abide by the second roll's results whether they are better or worse".

It gives tactical situations where maybe the opponent has successfully rolled to cast but there are two sixes. Do you want to make them suffer the perils and get their power off?

Or, do you want to make them reroll all and hope they don't take make the power but less likelihood of them periling...

That wording means you could only have them reroll the successful dice, essentially halving the chance of success. Unless you make them reroll *all* of their dice, you can just say 'Reroll all of those 4+s.'

That would be the point. SitW should make it harder for a power to go off. I frankly think we shouldn't get "psychic powers" myself, but it should be nigh impossible to get psychic powers off fighting tyranids.

Fluffy wise at least.

It should make it HARDER, but not impossible. Your proposed changes make it almost entirely impossible to cast any Psychic power within 12" of Tyranids. Forget the fluff, that is entirely game-breaking against any army which relies on Psykers. You are making it over twice as difficult to cast any power. (Chaos, CSM, Grey Knights, and Eldar come to mind as armies who would be unable to win against this.)

I don't see it as impossible. If you're talking about a 3 warp charge power, then yeah, summoning stuff or casting something that big should be difficult. So lets say you roll all 6 warp charge dice to make your summoning and get the bare minimum of 3.

I make you reroll those 3; that's a 12.5% chance. That's not a huge deal. I might not even make you reroll it already if you are gonna perils.

I'm assuming those are the worse case scenarios you're talking about?

I mean, a WC 2 power means you gotta roll 2 dice. So you're at 25% at bare minimum first successful roll.

WC 1 you're still at a 50/50.

Let's see...
For a Warp Charge 1 Power, you now need to roll 4 Dice to have decent odds of casting it.
For a Warp Charge 2 Power, you now need to roll 8 Dice.
For a Warp Charge 3 Power, you now need to roll 12 dice.

This isn't for great odds, either, I'm talking like a 2/3rds chance. That's not taking into account Deny the Witch, either, that's just getting an average chance of rolling enough 4+s to cast a power.

Currently, to cast a Warp Charge 1 Power with 80% chance of success, you need to roll 3 or 4 dice. In order to cast it with your new restrictions, you will need to roll 6. For a Warp Charge 2 Power to be reliable, it will take 12 Dice, and for Warp Charge 3 it will take 16. Once again, not accounting for Deny the Witch here.

For armies with only a couple of Psykers, they will be pretty much unable to cast anything between having their successes cut in half and Deny the Witch cancelling even that out.
For armies with enough Psykers to have a good amount of Warp Charges, they will be spending hundreds of points just to get a couple of ML1 powers working, at best.


So, yeah, you are proposing one of the most silly, over-powered Psychic Defenses since 6th Edition Rune Priests. (Heck, at least for Rune Priests it was a flat 50% ignore ratio, they didn't cut into the powers that all your other Psykers could use. If anything this is sillier.)

Meh, I'm not a big theory/math hammer person, so I can't say what the chances are or aren't with my proposal, but SitW still needs to be changed.

I do doubt it would change the game as all my tyranids die very easily to everything non-psychic that armies can muster, even with the few successful buffs I may get off.

Korias1004 wrote:
Meh, I'm not a big theory/math hammer person, so I can't say what the chances are or aren't with my proposal, but SitW still needs to be changed.

I do doubt it would change the game as all my tyranids die very easily to everything non-psychic that armies can muster, even with the few successful buffs I may get off.

Yes, Shadow in the Warp needs to be changed. Did you see my suggestion that it adds a +1 to Deny the Witch taken against Psychic Powers cast within 12" of a model with SitW? This suggestion is fluffy, useful, and most importantly not overpowered.

Yeah, I don't dislike it; it's just not my idea =D

We just made shadows + 2 to deny the witch when within 12" of shadows, been doing it since 7th dropped and it works

I think the best would just be a -X warp charges if a SitW character is within 12 inches of an enemy psycher

Any non-tyranid psyker trying to manifest within 12" of a Shadows of the Warp Psyker increases the warp charge cost of the power being attempted by 1.

You got to use more power to get through the shadows, which increases the risk.

-Matt