Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Formosa wrote:
Depending on what source you use the chaos gods are either enormous sentient warp storms or vortexs of emotion given life of a kind.

The first one can move around the warp and since the warp touches every reality and universe, that pretty much means it can go where it pleases, we also know that the gods can tear holes in into reality at Will, so if they so wished they could track the hive fleets via the warp shadow and drag them into the warp.

The chaos gods do not consider tyranids a threat yet, when they do the tyranids will be wiped out, just like the emperor

Except that the Emperor is a very different beast than the Tyranids, Chaos corrupted a portion of the IoM to stop the Emperor's plans. That isn't going to work with the Tyranids.
And IIRC, the Chaos Gods only teared holes into reality in zones where the veil between the Materium and the Immaterium already was thin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
Nids codex, it's basically summarised as this, full on deamon world, nids lose as chaos can just keep coming and doesn't need warp portals, warp portal world severely limits the staying power of deamons and nids simply out evolved them and closed the portal.

According to the Codex they were tied when the IoM destroyed the planet, although I agree that Chaos would have eventually won that one.

Chaos gods can tear a hole (haha) wherever and whenever they like, khorne did it, nurgle too and of course caliban happened, by tear a hole I mean basically rip open reality to send deamons forth as has been shown in numerous books and codexs.

By the emperor comment I'm.talking about how he became a threat and the gods united and removed him as a threat, there is no way nids could win if the big 4 simply sent there forces (all of the actual infinite forces) and mortal followers (mutants, marines etc.) at the nids wherever and whenever they wanted, the chaos gods really are that powerful, they just don't want a victory over the imperium, why kill your biggest fans!

 Formosa wrote:
Chaos gods can tear a hole (haha) wherever and whenever they like, khorne did it, nurgle too and of course caliban happened, by tear a hole I mean basically rip open reality to send deamons forth as has been shown in numerous books and codexs.

By the emperor comment I'm.talking about how he became a threat and the gods united and removed him as a threat, there is no way nids could win if the big 4 simply sent there forces (all of the actual infinite forces) and mortal followers (mutants, marines etc.) at the nids wherever and whenever they wanted, the chaos gods really are that powerful, they just don't want a victory over the imperium, why kill your biggest fans!

The Chaos Gods are all powerful in the Immaterium, but in the physical plane they seem to be far more limited and the Tyranids already showed some ability to close Warp portals.
As long as they Tyranids don't enter any Warp Rift they are going to be fine.

Khorne would adopt them as a training tool like he did with that ork waagh.

 Formosa wrote:

Xyptc wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Depending on what source you use the chaos gods are either enormous sentient warp storms or vortexs of emotion given life of a kind.

The first one can move around the warp and since the warp touches every reality and universe, that pretty much means it can go where it pleases, we also know that the gods can tear holes in into reality at Will, so if they so wished they could track the hive fleets via the warp shadow and drag them into the warp.

The chaos gods do not consider tyranids a threat yet, when they do the tyranids will be wiped out, just like the emperor

Do you have a citation for any of that?

Yeah of course buddy, infact I strongly suggest reading them as they are great books.

Liber chaotica tzeench, khorne, nurgle, slaanesh, undevided.
Codex chaos deamons (both books), deamons of chaos (all of them)
Necrons codex
A thousand sons, thief of revelations.
There are more but these are the most relevant.

Happy reading.

So... you can't quote a source that directly says "Chaos can drag the Hive Fleets into the Warp at any time, and there is nothing anyone can do about it, ever", then?

 Tyran wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Chaos gods can tear a hole (haha) wherever and whenever they like, khorne did it, nurgle too and of course caliban happened, by tear a hole I mean basically rip open reality to send deamons forth as has been shown in numerous books and codexs.

By the emperor comment I'm.talking about how he became a threat and the gods united and removed him as a threat, there is no way nids could win if the big 4 simply sent there forces (all of the actual infinite forces) and mortal followers (mutants, marines etc.) at the nids wherever and whenever they wanted, the chaos gods really are that powerful, they just don't want a victory over the imperium, why kill your biggest fans!

The Chaos Gods are all powerful in the Immaterium, but in the physical plane they seem to be far more limited and the Tyranids already showed some ability to close Warp portals.
As long as they Tyranids don't enter any Warp Rift they are going to be fine.

The Emperor and the Enslavers seem to dispute this assertion though?

Also, for giggles, so does Draigo. Carving things onto Nurgle's chosen champion and mightiest servant's heart?

Yes I can quote a source and have given you them, if you can't be bothered to read these great sources of fluff (or can't find.them) then that's not my problem as I'm not going to find each and every example of the gods being sentient storms (a thousand sons and chaotica books) or vortexs of emotion (also chaotica books and early deamon books), if you want all the examples, go look

Chaos is completely beyond the Tyranid insects, period.

On a battle field level most likely would never even register its existence. On the hive fleet level attempting to blocking out a planet? Laugh and sneer at the attempt to block out his abilities. Maybe even cause the all offending Nid psykers to explode in massive brain hemorrhages, or even possess them. I mean we're talking about one of the gods not some greater deamon or even a fallen primarch. just my opinion

Xyptc wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Xyptc wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Depending on what source you use the chaos gods are either enormous sentient warp storms or vortexs of emotion given life of a kind.

The first one can move around the warp and since the warp touches every reality and universe, that pretty much means it can go where it pleases, we also know that the gods can tear holes in into reality at Will, so if they so wished they could track the hive fleets via the warp shadow and drag them into the warp.

The chaos gods do not consider tyranids a threat yet, when they do the tyranids will be wiped out, just like the emperor

Do you have a citation for any of that?

Yeah of course buddy, infact I strongly suggest reading them as they are great books.

Liber chaotica tzeench, khorne, nurgle, slaanesh, undevided.
Codex chaos deamons (both books), deamons of chaos (all of them)
Necrons codex
A thousand sons, thief of revelations.
There are more but these are the most relevant.

Happy reading.

So... you can't quote a source that directly says "Chaos can drag the Hive Fleets into the Warp at any time, and there is nothing anyone can do about it, ever", then?

 Tyran wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Chaos gods can tear a hole (haha) wherever and whenever they like, khorne did it, nurgle too and of course caliban happened, by tear a hole I mean basically rip open reality to send deamons forth as has been shown in numerous books and codexs.

By the emperor comment I'm.talking about how he became a threat and the gods united and removed him as a threat, there is no way nids could win if the big 4 simply sent there forces (all of the actual infinite forces) and mortal followers (mutants, marines etc.) at the nids wherever and whenever they wanted, the chaos gods really are that powerful, they just don't want a victory over the imperium, why kill your biggest fans!

The Chaos Gods are all powerful in the Immaterium, but in the physical plane they seem to be far more limited and the Tyranids already showed some ability to close Warp portals.
As long as they Tyranids don't enter any Warp Rift they are going to be fine.

The Emperor and the Enslavers seem to dispute this assertion though?

Also, for giggles, so does Draigo. Carving things onto Nurgle's chosen champion and mightiest servant's heart?

Same can be said of hive tyrants and the swarmlord. It's the cruel fate of being non-imperium. You eventually get stuck in the fluff in a way where the big baddies get slapped around by a pitiful Marine neophyte

 Formosa wrote:
Yes I can quote a source and have given you them, if you can't be bothered to read these great sources of fluff (or can't find.them) then that's not my problem as I'm not going to find each and every example of the gods being sentient storms (a thousand sons and chaotica books) or vortexs of emotion (also chaotica books and early deamon books), if you want all the examples, go look

My apologies, I should have been clearer with my point.

I am not disputing the 'nature' of the Chaos Gods as either giant sentient Warp Storms or as 'vortexes of emotion".

My point was that I have yet to encounter proof that the Chaos Gods can "drag the Hive Fleets into the Warp at any time".

Of the books you have mentioned, I have read the full Liber Chaotica, all of the Daemons books (40k and Fantasy), both Necron books and the entire Horus Heresy series.

None of that really talks about Chaos vs Tyranids (except in very, very broad strokes; which is why the Shadowbrink fluff in the latest Tyranid book was so pleasing to see). Even more than that though, I am extremely dubious about your assertion that the Chaos Gods can just open portals where ever they want and drag whatever they want (even things which have an innate resistance to Warp powers) back into the Warp, whenever they want. Examples of this are few and far between.

It is, admittedly, more common for that sort of thing to be triggered from this side of the barrier, but that often requires a push from our end as well. If nothing else, it is well documented that the summoning of Daemons, summoning of Warp Storms, corruption of worlds etc involves ritual and sacrifice (plenty on this in the Word Bearers-centric HH novels).

Thinking on that for a moment, I may even go a step further and hypothesise that while within the Warp Chaos is enormously powerful (though 'infinitely powerful' is very debatable), on our side of the barrier Chaos is fairly impotent. It needs to corrupt life on our side, and then we open the way for it to enter our universe. You just don't see much of it being pushed through from their side.

So, in the spirit of logic, which you guys may or may not agree with, here is what I think would most likely happen in said circumstance.

Using Shadowbrink as reference for the Tyranid side of things, it is very likely that any Chaos god would find their powers diminished or heavily suppressed by the Shadow in the Warp. That being said, the vast signature of the Chaos god in question would most likely create a "Null Zone" in the Shadow, making it virtually impossible or incredibly difficult for the Hive Mind to send unscrambled orders to the swarms in the area. So, in a nutshell, you would have a fairly weak or nigh impotent god trapped in the middle of the biggest massacre in the galaxy as most of the Tyranids go mindless and start ripping each other apart, while some organisms, most likely the synapse creatures, receive a few unscrambled orders every now and then to try and hunt down and kill said god.

My big question is... this argument just doesn't work. Chaos Gods are stuck in the warp not the real realm. No matter what they do, they are always stuck there. The only real way for Nids to surround a Chaos god would be to rush in and stand around the whirlpool of emotions in the warp which really doesn't work. Or make sense.

I've always thought that the most terrifying aspect of the Warp was that it was 'merely' our thoughts and dreams, given power. And the terrible part of 40k is that the residue of countless mortals (psyker-capable ones) results in the Chaos Demons. The Immaterium being given shape and form from the thoughts of mortals results in powerful virtual gods (the Big Four) trying to corrupt or destroy the Materium itself.

This theory gets darker with those cut off from the Warp being so unimaginative and unnerving, means that there really is no solution.

Under this model, what makes Nids so scary isn't just that they'll eat you, it is also that they are so... potent... And their thoughts so unified that they completely overwhelm any others in their area.

There are a number of things in 40k 'canon' that don't fully work with this explanation, but it is hinted at, and makes for a very compelling universe.

In that sense, the Shadow in the Warp is just Nid mastery. A Chaos God could probably wade in, provided he's strong enough, but it would be costly, and even if the Gods ran, they would 'starve' eventually if Nids ate everything else.

 StarTrotter wrote:
My big question is... this argument just doesn't work. Chaos Gods are stuck in the warp not the real realm. No matter what they do, they are always stuck there. The only real way for Nids to surround a Chaos god would be to rush in and stand around the whirlpool of emotions in the warp which really doesn't work. Or make sense.

Exactly this. The only way this battle could happen is if a Hive Fleet enters the Immaterium itself. And once it does? It's fethed. Well and truly fethed. Evolve all you want, the Immaterium is a mockery of such things.

 Psienesis wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
My big question is... this argument just doesn't work. Chaos Gods are stuck in the warp not the real realm. No matter what they do, they are always stuck there. The only real way for Nids to surround a Chaos god would be to rush in and stand around the whirlpool of emotions in the warp which really doesn't work. Or make sense.

Exactly this. The only way this battle could happen is if a Hive Fleet enters the Immaterium itself. And once it does? It's fethed. Well and truly fethed. Evolve all you want, the Immaterium is a mockery of such things.

Although in the recent Valedor fluff, a reasonable sized segment of Hive Fleet Kraken (stuffed with Eldar souls no less) spent a period in the Warp after being flung there by Eldar trickery and it emerges with no ill-effects what-so-ever as far as we can tell. Now, Tyranids don't use Gellar Fields as we understand them so... what happened?

Isn't someone able to tell me in what story Tyranids evolved past the plagues of Nurgle?

As a Chaos fanatic I'm obviously annoyed by some of the fiction concerning Tyranids >>>>> Daemons like Xyptc just wrote about, but we know that sometimes the fiction contradicts itself, so is much of the fiction a result of Tyranid über fans?

Chaospling wrote:
Isn't someone able to tell me in what story Tyranids evolved past the plagues of Nurgle?

As a Chaos fanatic I'm obviously annoyed by some of the fiction concerning Tyranids >>>>> Daemons like Xyptc just wrote about, but we know that sometimes the fiction contradicts itself, so is much of the fiction a result of Tyranid über fans?

The Fall of Shadowbrink; 6th Edition Tyranid Codex.

I'd say it makes as much sense to ask if the Chaos gods could beat the Shadow In The Warp as it does to ask if a shark could beat a lack of water. Sharks may be bit and scary but the warp is the reflection of lifeforms' consciousness and the Tyranids blot that out because they don't appear to actually be conscious in the normal sense of the word. So in this analogy, Tyranids are the receding of the tide. How can Chaos gods fight that?

 knas ser wrote:
I'd say it makes as much sense to ask if the Chaos gods could beat the Shadow In The Warp as it does to ask if a shark could beat a lack of water. Sharks may be bit and scary but the warp is the reflection of lifeforms' consciousness and the Tyranids blot that out because they don't appear to actually be conscious in the normal sense of the word. So in this analogy, Tyranids are the receding of the tide. How can Chaos gods fight that?

There it is again... The Shadow doesn't tap or drain the Warp, it's just extreme traffic and it only affects Daemons in the materium when the Daemons uses the Warp actively like when using psychic powers. Only then they'll have problems because only then will the connection between the materium and the Warp be used - the power needed for the Daemon to appear in the materium has already been used. I think that it's very important that Tyranid use the warp itself so that could somehow be used against it and it sounds like it's only the numbers of entities of the Tyranid which cause the extreme traffic so (as I've said before) very powerful psykers or an even more extreme traffic than that of the Tyranids would definitely affect the Tyranids.

Chaospling wrote:

 knas ser wrote:
I'd say it makes as much sense to ask if the Chaos gods could beat the Shadow In The Warp as it does to ask if a shark could beat a lack of water. Sharks may be bit and scary but the warp is the reflection of lifeforms' consciousness and the Tyranids blot that out because they don't appear to actually be conscious in the normal sense of the word. So in this analogy, Tyranids are the receding of the tide. How can Chaos gods fight that?

There it is again... The Shadow doesn't tap or drain the Warp, it's just extreme traffic

Citation. It's not the Babble in the Warp. It's not the Roaring in the Warp. It's the Shadow. Where's the citation that it's extreme noise?

It's in one of the first pages of the 6th edition codex under the title The Shadow in The Warp. I think I've read it several other places as well but can't remember exactly where...

Chaospling wrote:
It's in one of the first pages of the 6th edition codex under the title The Shadow in The Warp. I think I've read it several other places as well but can't remember exactly where...

Page 7 of the 6th Ed Tyranid book talks about the Shadow. It doesn't touch upon the relationship between the Shadow and Daemons at all (that comes later) but instead states that it:

- disrupts all forms of Warp-based travel
- disrupts all forms of Warp-based communication
- sentient (presumably Warp-sensitive only though) lifeforms begin to feel a gnawing sense of dread and despair
- heavily psychic races and individuals suffer the above effect tenfold
- using psychic powers magnifies the effect even further, and can lead to complete madness unless you are well disciplined
- the effect (for a psyker) is described as "the psychic sound of a billion alien thoughts scratching at his mind"

It is worth noting that it is not clear if these alien thoughts (and indeed all Tyranid psychic communication) are actually within the Warp itself, or if they are perhaps in some other medium or dimension and that Warp is simply mirroring what is happening (in effect, a "true" shadow cast by the Tyranids talking to one another). That's an interesting thought.

Xyptc wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
It's in one of the first pages of the 6th edition codex under the title The Shadow in The Warp. I think I've read it several other places as well but can't remember exactly where...

Page 7 of the 6th Ed Tyranid book talks about the Shadow. It doesn't touch upon the relationship between the Shadow and Daemons at all (that comes later) but instead states that it:

- disrupts all forms of Warp-based travel
- disrupts all forms of Warp-based communication
- sentient (presumably Warp-sensitive only though) lifeforms begin to feel a gnawing sense of dread and despair
- heavily psychic races and individuals suffer the above effect tenfold
- using psychic powers magnifies the effect even further, and can lead to complete madness unless you are well disciplined
- the effect (for a psyker) is described as "the psychic sound of a billion alien thoughts scratching at his mind"

It is worth noting that it is not clear if these alien thoughts (and indeed all Tyranid psychic communication) are actually within the Warp itself, or if they are perhaps in some other medium or dimension and that Warp is simply mirroring what is happening (in effect, a "true" shadow cast by the Tyranids talking to one another). That's an interesting thought.

Yes the part with the Daemons comes in the story The Fall of Shawdowbrink which you wrote about earlier, I just couldn't find anything about Tyranids evolving past and thus be immune to every kind of Nurgle's plagues...

I got the clear picture that the Tyranid psychic communication is traffic between the Warp and the materium and as this passage is so "narrow" it can block out psykers trying to utilize the same space. But if the Tyranid fappery reaches levels where new mediums are invented or other kinds of silly attempts to diminish the power of other races, then I can't do anything about that...

Chaospling wrote:

Xyptc wrote:

Page 7 of the 6th Ed Tyranid book talks about the Shadow. It doesn't touch upon the relationship between the Shadow and Daemons at all (that comes later) but instead states that it:

- disrupts all forms of Warp-based travel
- disrupts all forms of Warp-based communication
- sentient (presumably Warp-sensitive only though) lifeforms begin to feel a gnawing sense of dread and despair
- heavily psychic races and individuals suffer the above effect tenfold
- using psychic powers magnifies the effect even further, and can lead to complete madness unless you are well disciplined
- the effect (for a psyker) is described as "the psychic sound of a billion alien thoughts scratching at his mind"

It is worth noting that it is not clear if these alien thoughts (and indeed all Tyranid psychic communication) are actually within the Warp itself, or if they are perhaps in some other medium or dimension and that Warp is simply mirroring what is happening (in effect, a "true" shadow cast by the Tyranids talking to one another). That's an interesting thought.

Yes the part with the Daemons comes in the story The Fall of Shawdowbrink which you wrote about earlier, I just couldn't find anything about Tyranids evolving past and thus be immune to every kind of Nurgle's plagues...

I got the clear picture that the Tyranid psychic communication is traffic between the Warp and the materium and as this passage is so "narrow" it can block out psykers trying to utilize the same space. But if the Tyranid fappery reaches levels where new mediums are invented or other kinds of silly attempts to diminish the power of other races, then I can't do anything about that...

With one of their number fallen, the remaining lords of the Abominatum realised the
nature of the battle had changed. The Hive Mind was leeching their energies, severing the
Daemons from the sustaining powers of the Empyrean. No real blood flowed for Khorne,
just worthless alien ichor. As each rancid disease was unleashed by the children of
Nurgle, so the next brood of Tyranids had grown resistant to it. Without the fear or
devotion of true mortals to sustain them, the Daemons were foundering fast.

Xyptc wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
It's in one of the first pages of the 6th edition codex under the title The Shadow in The Warp. I think I've read it several other places as well but can't remember exactly where...

Page 7 of the 6th Ed Tyranid book talks about the Shadow. It doesn't touch upon the relationship between the Shadow and Daemons at all (that comes later) but instead states that it:

- disrupts all forms of Warp-based travel
- disrupts all forms of Warp-based communication
- sentient (presumably Warp-sensitive only though) lifeforms begin to feel a gnawing sense of dread and despair
- heavily psychic races and individuals suffer the above effect tenfold
- using psychic powers magnifies the effect even further, and can lead to complete madness unless you are well disciplined
- the effect (for a psyker) is described as "the psychic sound of a billion alien thoughts scratching at his mind"

It is worth noting that it is not clear if these alien thoughts (and indeed all Tyranid psychic communication) are actually within the Warp itself, or if they are perhaps in some other medium or dimension and that Warp is simply mirroring what is happening (in effect, a "true" shadow cast by the Tyranids talking to one another). That's an interesting thought.

Huh. Okay, clearly things have moved on since what it used to be. I stand corrected.

Xyptc wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Yes I can quote a source and have given you them, if you can't be bothered to read these great sources of fluff (or can't find.them) then that's not my problem as I'm not going to find each and every example of the gods being sentient storms (a thousand sons and chaotica books) or vortexs of emotion (also chaotica books and early deamon books), if you want all the examples, go look

My apologies, I should have been clearer with my point.

I am not disputing the 'nature' of the Chaos Gods as either giant sentient Warp Storms or as 'vortexes of emotion".

My point was that I have yet to encounter proof that the Chaos Gods can "drag the Hive Fleets into the Warp at any time".

Of the books you have mentioned, I have read the full Liber Chaotica, all of the Daemons books (40k and Fantasy), both Necron books and the entire Horus Heresy series.

None of that really talks about Chaos vs Tyranids (except in very, very broad strokes; which is why the Shadowbrink fluff in the latest Tyranid book was so pleasing to see). Even more than that though, I am extremely dubious about your assertion that the Chaos Gods can just open portals where ever they want and drag whatever they want (even things which have an innate resistance to Warp powers) back into the Warp, whenever they want. Examples of this are few and far between.

It is, admittedly, more common for that sort of thing to be triggered from this side of the barrier, but that often requires a push from our end as well. If nothing else, it is well documented that the summoning of Daemons, summoning of Warp Storms, corruption of worlds etc involves ritual and sacrifice (plenty on this in the Word Bearers-centric HH novels).

Thinking on that for a moment, I may even go a step further and hypothesise that while within the Warp Chaos is enormously powerful (though 'infinitely powerful' is very debatable), on our side of the barrier Chaos is fairly impotent. It needs to corrupt life on our side, and then we open the way for it to enter our universe. You just don't see much of it being pushed through from their side.

Ah coolio, ok there are the 2 big ones that I can think of off the top of my head.

Caliban wad destroyed by the gods when theory got pished and decided to just rip apart the planet and pull it into the warp, short of the New books expanding on this we can only assume it was unaided.

Now the other ones name eludes me but I'm sure you will remember, basically nurgle decided to attack a world and basically caused all sorts of hell, he invited khorne later on and then they smashed a hole into realspace and invaded.

So that 1 example if a planet being sucked into the warp and one of a planet being invaded without aid of summoning, if the chaos gods are able to do the on a larger scale then pulling a number of hive ships in or invading a planet where nids are located isn't that difficult, then add the legions and lost and the damned, I can't see the nids winning a total war against chaos.

 Formosa wrote:

Xyptc wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Yes I can quote a source and have given you them, if you can't be bothered to read these great sources of fluff (or can't find.them) then that's not my problem as I'm not going to find each and every example of the gods being sentient storms (a thousand sons and chaotica books) or vortexs of emotion (also chaotica books and early deamon books), if you want all the examples, go look

My apologies, I should have been clearer with my point.

I am not disputing the 'nature' of the Chaos Gods as either giant sentient Warp Storms or as 'vortexes of emotion".

My point was that I have yet to encounter proof that the Chaos Gods can "drag the Hive Fleets into the Warp at any time".

Of the books you have mentioned, I have read the full Liber Chaotica, all of the Daemons books (40k and Fantasy), both Necron books and the entire Horus Heresy series.

None of that really talks about Chaos vs Tyranids (except in very, very broad strokes; which is why the Shadowbrink fluff in the latest Tyranid book was so pleasing to see). Even more than that though, I am extremely dubious about your assertion that the Chaos Gods can just open portals where ever they want and drag whatever they want (even things which have an innate resistance to Warp powers) back into the Warp, whenever they want. Examples of this are few and far between.

It is, admittedly, more common for that sort of thing to be triggered from this side of the barrier, but that often requires a push from our end as well. If nothing else, it is well documented that the summoning of Daemons, summoning of Warp Storms, corruption of worlds etc involves ritual and sacrifice (plenty on this in the Word Bearers-centric HH novels).

Thinking on that for a moment, I may even go a step further and hypothesise that while within the Warp Chaos is enormously powerful (though 'infinitely powerful' is very debatable), on our side of the barrier Chaos is fairly impotent. It needs to corrupt life on our side, and then we open the way for it to enter our universe. You just don't see much of it being pushed through from their side.

Ah coolio, ok there are the 2 big ones that I can think of off the top of my head.

Caliban wad destroyed by the gods when theory got pished and decided to just rip apart the planet and pull it into the warp, short of the New books expanding on this we can only assume it was unaided.

Now the other ones name eludes me but I'm sure you will remember, basically nurgle decided to attack a world and basically caused all sorts of hell, he invited khorne later on and then they smashed a hole into realspace and invaded.

So that 1 example if a planet being sucked into the warp and one of a planet being invaded without aid of summoning, if the chaos gods are able to do the on a larger scale then pulling a number of hive ships in or invading a planet where nids are located isn't that difficult, then add the legions and lost and the damned, I can't see the nids winning a total war against chaos.

I can't really comment on Caliban, I've not read anything on that for some time now (DA never really interested me).

The second incident you're thinking of is "The Gheistos Cataclysm" ( I remember that 'started with Nurgle, then he invites Khorne along to party' concept). It's from the 5th Edition BBB, page 152. It starts with an unprotected psyker tapping into the Warp in self defence and attracting the attention of some Nurgle Daemons. Unfortunately it most definitely starts with someone on our side opening the door. The planet isn't even destroyed at the end of the story; the Grey Knights and Vorpal Swords Space Marines cleanse the Daemonic invasion.

One thing that does, as far as we know, happen without intervention from our side is "the random Warp Storm". The setting is littered with "random Warp Storms" popping up and being a nuisance, but there isn't much to support the idea that the Chaos Gods are placing them deliberately.

Um, there seems to be a lot of contention on what the warp does to shadow and visa versa.. and everyone seems to say that Canon if not individuals writings support THEIR argument to the exclusion of all else...

Heres the rub gentlemen.. and why the OP would never happen.. the warp is only vaguely overlapping the material universe.. and hardly in a 2 dimensional.. or even 3 dimensional state.. so how would the shadow get as far into the warp as the Greater Powers realms...

More to the point.. there has NEVER and probably WILL never be an account of any of the four Chaos Gods 'stepping' into the material world... if they even CAN

In the end whilst the shadow could and does effect how the warp and warp powered abilities 'contaminate' the material universe.. that doesn't necessarily mean it is even effecting the warp... it just merely means that the shadow is messing with that area where the two merge

Thanks - that's what I've been trying to say.

Horus was possessed by the chaos gods, that's stepping over into the material realm

The shadow has been described as pushing deamons away or them fleeing before it (can't quite remember sorry dudes), so your theory of the shadow "dipping" into the warp is moot, to use an analogy the way it seems you described it (correct me if I'm wrong Pease) is the shadow exists on a pond of water, touching the warp and useing it to conduct the hive minds thoughts, where as the chaos gods realms exist deeper beneath. The pond, that's how it sounds like your describing it.

If so it's wrong, there is no dipping into the warp, even the tau have lost ships to it with there warp skimming tech, if you are in the warp your in the warp and can be affected by its denizens if unprotected.