Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

There's a 2000pts tournament coming up in my area next month and here's the list I've been thinking about taking:

375 - Morathi

188 - Master on Dark Pegasus - Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, Lance, Cloak of Twilight
275 - Death Hag on Cauldron of Blood

110 - 5 x Dark Riders - Shields, RXBs, Musician
110 - 5 x Dark Riders - Shields, RXBs, Musician
305 - 25 x Witch Elves w Full command

385 - 30 x Executioners - Standard, Musician, Gleaming Pendant

125 - 5 x Doomfire Warlocks
125 - 5 x Doomfire Warlocks

Total: 1998pts

Any feedback or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I could drop Morathi down to a regular SS on Peg with 4+ ward but the tournament's a group stage first and then the top players go through to a knock out. All in all I'm looking at about 8 games with the same list so being able to change the lore round should be really useful.

Warlocks are overrated

Drop the peg hero. He adds nothing to the list. And switch him and the hag out for a master with full mundane kit, enchanted shield, dawnstone and sword of might, as well as tullaris.

Ok, not a bad list at all, just a few things that need changing.

It's hard to effectively run a Cauldron + Corsairs/Witch Elves alongside Executioners at 2k, because you struggle to get the support you need. I wouldn't say don't do it, but just be aware it won't play as well as it does at 2400 or 2500. Reason being is that the Executioners need support in terms of something to make them Frenzy (which will be a Hero choice - so that means dropping the Master, who, as darkavenger rightly points out, adds little to the list anyway) and Life Magic, which is what your Lvl4 should be running. You obviously have the Cauldron for your Witch Elves, but because of points constraints on your Hero choices, you can't add in a Sorceress for additional magic support. The Warlocks help, but they tend to be priority targets for many people, and Soulblight doesn't get your strength up, so your Witch Elves are always going to be S3, which makes handling armour tough. Yes, you have the Executioners for that, but be aware that you need to be on form. You have plenty of chaff, which is good, drop them first, see what your opponent puts down where and deploy accordingly and, then use them get o the charges you want.

If you are sticking with the Cauldron, you need Witchbrew on the Hag. I'd advice putting the BSB there too, purely for frenzy checks, but many people would advice putting your BSB on the Cauldron. That's fair enough but, in my experience, with 4 fast cav units and a 5++ you should be alright, especially at 2k. However, there is the option to run a Witchbrew BSB Hag as your Frenzy for the Executioners (in which case you could put the Banner of Swiftness on them), which makes the BSB easy to protect, but leaves your Witch Elves prone to chasing after chaff. Again, this is ok, but you'll have to play well, screen with your chaff, shoot the enemy's with your Dark Riders and don't be hesitant to Doombolt a 60pt chaff unit if necessary - it's not a waste!

And, as mentioned before, your Lvl4 will have to run Life, which means swapping Morathi out. Lvl4 + Dark Pegasus + Cloak of Twilight + Dispel Scroll should be the setup you use, as you need that Dispel Scroll in.

So yeah, this, with a few changes is a very good list, it will just require some good play to bring out its full potential. If you have any questions, just ask! Good luck!

Oh and by the way, is this tournament on the Isle of Mann?

I stand by executioners not needing life, as negating threats is better than counteracting them. Death is great for that. Removing dwellers is far better than bringing the casualties back.

Plus morathi is so good for what she brings to the table. Death snipes with +8 to cast? Yes please. Her on death makes most of the lore cast able on 2-3 dice.


Oh and, Shadow. You forgot the obsidian trinket from that level 4 build.

Instead of Morathi add a normal sorceress with dispell scroll and 4++. Otherwise the list is killing.

KeyserSoze wrote:
Instead of Morathi add a normal sorceress with dispell scroll and 4++. Otherwise the list is killing.

Or keep the superior option. Oh look. I have a 2++ vs that fireball. And I'm maneuverable. And I get to pick which lores I generate spells from before each game.

 The Shadow wrote:
Oh and by the way, is this tournament on the Isle of Mann?

It is indeed

I totally disagree about witchbrew on the hag. The cauldron can reliable 2 dice, or 2 out of 3 times 1 dice the extra frenzy without a penalty to LD after you opponent spends his dispel dice on the sorceress's and doomfire's casting.

I also, personally, have only ever gotten executioners to successfully work for me by running them with tullaris and putting a hag with a cauldron in the unit with them. Gives them a 6+ ward, and the cauldron will boost their frenzy to 3 attacks. But that's alot of points at 2k. I might drop the witches, go up to 35 executioners (horde formation w/ the cauldron @5 ranks) and toss in a few more dark riders. or a unit of crossbowmen with the banner of flame for beasts of nurgle and the like.

dolomyte wrote:
I totally disagree about witchbrew on the hag. The cauldron can reliable 2 dice, or 2 out of 3 times 1 dice the extra frenzy without a penalty to LD after you opponent spends his dispel dice on the sorceress's and doomfire's casting.

I also, personally, have only ever gotten executioners to successfully work for me by running them with tullaris and putting a hag with a cauldron in the unit with them. Gives them a 6+ ward, and the cauldron will boost their frenzy to 3 attacks. But that's alot of points at 2k. I might drop the witches, go up to 35 executioners (horde formation w/ the cauldron @5 ranks) and toss in a few more dark riders. or a unit of crossbowmen with the banner of flame for beasts of nurgle and the like.

Actually, the cauldron disrupts horde, unless you go super wide. As horde has to be ten models wide.

Actually it does not. It counts as being 3 models wide 5 models deep. So you only need to go 7 wide. Pg 98 of the small rulebook. Different sized bases. If a characters base is larger then one model, but has exactly the same size area or footprint as two or more models, simply displace those models to the back rank and position the character in its place.

Your thinking of when footprints collide, IE a 25mm base in a 20mm unit, in which case it would not take up the same footprint and would be ignored.

dolomyte wrote:
Actually it does not. It counts as being 3 models wide 5 models deep. So you only need to go 7 wide. Pg 98 of the small rulebook. Different sized bases. If a characters base is larger then one model, but has exactly the same size area or footprint as two or more models, simply displace those models to the back rank and position the character in its place.

Your thinking of when footprints collide, IE a 25mm base in a 20mm unit, in which case it would not take up the same footprint and would be ignored.

It's a chariot... The hag is still on a 20mm*20mm. The chariot counts as a single model.

I understand that. However, unlike other chariots, Will of the gods, It can join units and leave as if it were a character, save for the fact that it must always be placed in the centre of the front rank. It's footprint is 60mm wide by 100mm long. Which equals 3 20mm models wide and 5 20mm deep, which then following pg 98 counts as 3 ranks of 5 models for the purpose of horde formation.

dolomyte wrote:
I understand that. However, unlike other chariots, Will of the gods, It can join units and leave as if it were a character, save for the fact that it must always be placed in the centre of the front rank. It's footprint is 60mm wide by 100mm long. Which equals 3 20mm models wide and 5 20mm deep, which then following pg 98 counts as 3 ranks of 5 models for the purpose of horde formation.

A chariot counts as a single model. See page 86 for reference. If it were a character, then page 98 would apply. But it's a chariot that's disrupting the ranks. A mount. Not a character.

Haha I think that's the confusion. Will of the gods, the rule for the cauldron, specifically state that unlike other chariots, it may join units as if it were a character. Which is why page 98 applies. I've been to multiple GT's, both in the US and in the UK. and every single one used it the way I am discussing.

I don't know what else I could do to sway you on this, hopefully someone else might weigh in with a email or ruling from GW?

Also, on page 86, the only place it says the chariot is treated as a single model is in terms of Split Profile, specifically. "In a similar manner to cavalry, a chariot has more then one set of characteristics, one for the beasts, one for the crew, and one for the chariot itself, and is treated as a single model"

That does not say anything about it's effects on ranking.

Whether or not it disrupts horde it does displace executioners, which means less attacks at I5 and S6 = sad times.

dolomyte wrote:
Haha I think that's the confusion. Will of the gods, the rule for the cauldron, specifically state that unlike other chariots, it may join units as if it were a character. Which is why page 98 applies. I've been to multiple GT's, both in the US and in the UK. and every single one used it the way I am discussing.

I don't know what else I could do to sway you on this, hopefully someone else might weigh in with a email or ruling from GW?

Also, on page 86, the only place it says the chariot is treated as a single model is in terms of Split Profile, specifically. "In a similar manner to cavalry, a chariot has more then one set of characteristics, one for the beasts, one for the crew, and one for the chariot itself, and is treated as a single model"

That does not say anything about it's effects on ranking.

Apart from the rule also saying that it's not treated like a character. It can only join and leave units like one.

This means it's a single model on a large base that disrupts ranks.

alex87 wrote:
Whether or not it disrupts horde it does displace executioners, which means less attacks at I5 and S6 = sad times.

But it adds a minimum of 11 poison attacks (Death hag base 5 at str 4, and 6 from crew at str 3). in addition to making the unit cause terror, and d6+1 impact hits at str 5. Also, those attacks have ASF, so on the rare chance your facing stuff faster then I5, you get some attacks in to cut them down a bit.

dolomyte wrote:

alex87 wrote:
Whether or not it disrupts horde it does displace executioners, which means less attacks at I5 and S6 = sad times.

But it adds a minimum of 11 poison attacks (Death hag base 5 at str 4, and 6 from crew at str 3). in addition to making the unit cause terror, and d6+1 impact hits at str 5. Also, those attacks have ASF, so on the rare chance your facing stuff faster then I5, you get some attacks in to cut them down a bit.

Nothing that you need executioners to fight cares about 11 S3/4 poisoned attacks.

I run a Cauldron horde as well and I've never seen anyone suggest it works the way thedarkavenger suggests, though I think that both arguments have enough merit than an FAQ would be really useful. I wouldn't both with the horde formation if I needed it to be 13 wide!

I always thought the Cauldron worked better for Black Guard than for Executioners honestly, the Strength 3/4 Poisoned attacks fit roughly the same bill and the re-rolls to wound on Strength 4 are more important than for Strength 6 generally. Just my personal experience though, I've yet to play super competitively with my Dark Elves.

Caederes wrote:
I run a Cauldron horde as well and I've never seen anyone suggest it works the way thedarkavenger suggests, though I think that both arguments have enough merit than an FAQ would be really useful. I wouldn't both with the horde formation if I needed it to be 13 wide!

I always thought the Cauldron worked better for Black Guard than for Executioners honestly, the Strength 3/4 Poisoned attacks fit roughly the same bill and the re-rolls to wound on Strength 4 are more important than for Strength 6 generally. Just my personal experience though, I've yet to play super competitively with my Dark Elves.

Try the cauldron shooty list.

Haha I'd like to but I'm pretty happy with my current list, I do a Har Ganeth theme with Witch Elves + Cauldron, a block of Executioners and other random stuff to taste. It's not the most competitive but it is certainly fun! Besides, I'd do Dwarves if I wanted a shooty army honestly - those war machines are just music to my ears.

Caederes wrote:
Haha I'd like to but I'm pretty happy with my current list, I do a Har Ganeth theme with Witch Elves + Cauldron, a block of Executioners and other random stuff to taste. It's not the most competitive but it is certainly fun! Besides, I'd do Dwarves if I wanted a shooty army honestly - those war machines are just music to my ears.

But can dwarves war machines reroll all failed rolls to wound?

Chariot does not disrupt hoard. Cauldron + 7 models wide = hoard. Characters on mounts is pretty clear. And the entry says its not treated as a character for placement purposes, it must be in the center of the unit. Cmon...

Other then that, I never used morathi. But the more I hear about thedarkavenger and others speak about her makes me really want to give her a go. I'd like to hear how the list worked for you, could I bother you to do a battle report or a follow up after the tournie?

Tsilber wrote:
Chariot does not disrupt hoard. Cauldron + 7 models wide = hoard. Characters on mounts is pretty clear. And the entry says its not treated as a character for placement purposes, it must be in the center of the unit. Cmon...

Point out where it says that. A chariot is a single model. The rules state that it is not a character. So therefore, 7 Executioners+1 chariot=8 wide. Therefore RAW, no horde.

For the issue of Horde or not I think the best thing to do is try to get a hold of a tournament organizer you're going to and get something in writing that says if it does/does not count. That way you know before hand what you are dealing with and it will be settled.

I don't have much experience with DE, they are my wife's army But I do agree that the Master on the Dark Pegasus does not do much, you have other, and better units for War Machine hunting.

30 Executioners looks like a lot to me, but I do play WOC so I'm used to smaller numbers, I would drop them down to 20 and with the removal of the Master got another Core block, Some shooty units to flank the Cauldron or some bolt throwers to help out with Monsters and other units. Or anything else you like like a Kharibdyss,

Djbillson wrote:
For the issue of Horde or not I think the best thing to do is try to get a hold of a tournament organizer you're going to and get something in writing that says if it does/does not count. That way you know before hand what you are dealing with and it will be settled.

I don't have much experience with DE, they are my wife's army But I do agree that the Master on the Dark Pegasus does not do much, you have other, and better units for War Machine hunting.

30 Executioners looks like a lot to me, but I do play WOC so I'm used to smaller numbers, I would drop them down to 20 and with the removal of the Master got another Core block, Some shooty units to flank the Cauldron or some bolt throwers to help out with Monsters and other units. Or anything else you like like a Kharibdyss,

Executioners need 30 at minimum, unless you go for the MMU cleanup list. As anything less is not a combat unit due to lack of rerolls.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Caederes wrote:
Haha I'd like to but I'm pretty happy with my current list, I do a Har Ganeth theme with Witch Elves + Cauldron, a block of Executioners and other random stuff to taste. It's not the most competitive but it is certainly fun! Besides, I'd do Dwarves if I wanted a shooty army honestly - those war machines are just music to my ears.

But can dwarves war machines reroll all failed rolls to wound?

Fair point, but I do like diversity in my war machines. While Elf Bolt Throwers are good, I love me all those cannons, stone throwers, flame cannons, organ guns, etc. Dwarf Bolt Throwers suck so it's not like I'd be copying my Elf armies!

@Djbillson
Elves are not Chaos Warriors, particularly Dark Elves. Your typical Warrior is a 17-19 point T4 4+/3+ armoured model, Elven elite infantry are pretty much all 12-15 point T3 5+ armoured models. Elves kind of need the numbers, especially the great weapon units as they don't get re-rolls and won't always strike before enemies. Chaos Warriors get away with smaller units because they are built for maximum damage and don't win on rank bonuses because of how expensive they are. Elves don't have the staying power to really pull that off.

The pages referencing cauldron/character have already been pointed out, no reason to point them out again as it wont dp any good. We can agree to disagree on it i guess darkavenger. But im honestly shocked with all your wisdom you really rule it as a single model. Im not trying to insult you or be sarcastic. I actually find and have found a lot of use-fullness and wisdom in your past post. Either way seems we simply disagree this time, no worries or hard feelings.

As for tournies. Etc, bragging rights, Unplugged gamers GT.here in New England all run it as 3 models wide. They also dont allow failed wound rolls from shooting or magic to be rerolled do to cauldron. Only failed wounds in combat. So /shrug

Tsilber wrote:
The pages referencing cauldron/character have already been pointed out, no reason to point them out again as it wont dp any good. We can agree to disagree on it i guess darkavenger. But im honestly shocked with all your wisdom you really rule it as a single model. Im not trying to insult you or be sarcastic. I actually find and have found a lot of use-fullness and wisdom in your past post. Either way seems we simply disagree this time, no worries or hard feelings.

As for tournies. Etc, bragging rights, Unplugged gamers GT.here in New England all run it as 3 models wide. They also dont allow failed wound rolls from shooting or magic to be rerolled do to cauldron. Only failed wounds in combat. So /shrug

I agree with the Cauldron placement thing but not having it affect shooting and magic, fluff wise it might not make sense but the rule clearly states it affects all to wound rolls. If it was supposed to be melee only they would have said as much, the reason it only affects models with Murderous Prowess is because all Dark Elves have some form of patronage to Khaine and thus a Cauldron of Blood would send them into a deeper frenzy.