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Both Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion say they can be Battle Brothers with Chaos Space Marines' Codex. But how do they treat each other?

I'm inclined to say they would be Battle Brothers since all their units are actually chosen from the CSM Codex, but there could be something I'm missing? Those super duper psykers with artefacts would make excellent allies!

It no longer matters what Codex they are selected from, all that matters is what Faction they belong to.
Supplements belong to the same Faction as their mother Codex.

You may mix and match CSM, CS, and BL units all in the same CA detachment. You may take multiple CADs, you may not take one of them as an ally detachment.

OK, I found what I was thinking.

From the BL Supplement (Page 116).

Note that you can only use the options from one codex supplement when choosing a detachment.

So an army can have CS and BL in the same army, but not the same detachment.

Now if they can only put something similar to that within the Detachment Rules themselves, to eliminate any 'Mixed Detachment' oddities that will form....

Hrm.

Does this mean you could have a force where one IC has the Black Mace, and another has the Spineshiver Blade (as long as they are part of different detachments)?

they don't need to be different detachments, you can run a csm lord with black mace, and a blacklegion lord with spineshiver blade. as one detachment.

 zachwho wrote:
they don't need to be different detachments, you can run a csm lord with black mace, and a blacklegion lord with spineshiver blade. as one detachment.

The rule HappyJew linked disagrees with this...

The rules in pretty much every supplement disagrees with it, as most rules them (including relic switchs) are detachment wide and as such need to influence either the entire detachment, or none of it.

zachwho wrote:they don't need to be different detachments, you can run a csm lord with black mace, and a blacklegion lord with spineshiver blade. as one detachment.

Happyjew wrote:OK, I found what I was thinking.

From the BL Supplement (Page 116).

Note that you can only use the options from one codex supplement when choosing a detachment.

So an army can have CS and BL in the same army, but not the same detachment.

As the rule above states, no you may not do this.

is that only if youre running black legion? boa isn't ruling it this way.

 zachwho wrote:
is that only if youre running black legion? boa isn't ruling it this way.

If CS does not have the same restriction, then that is different. The point is that BL has a specific requirement you must follow if using it.

BAO can houserule all they like, the actual rule for BL is explicit.

Just like to point out the rule listed does not prevent you from using CSMs and BL in the same detachment only from using CS & BL in the same detachment. Codex Chaos Space Marine is not a Codex Supplement but a Codex and hence is not effected by that rule.

So the following according to people is legal?

Primary Detachment
HQ
Ultramarines Commander
White Scars Commander

Troops
White Scar Bikers
Ultramarine Tactical


OR IS IT?

Combined Arms Detachment
HQ
Ultramarines Commander
Troop
Tactical
Tactical

2nd
HQ
White Scars
Troop
Bikers
Bikers


So would Chaos Space Marines be
Primary Detachment
HQ
Black Legion
Generic
Troop
Black Legion
Generic

Or

Combined Arms

HQ
Black Legion
Troop
Black Legion
Black Legion

2nd
HQ
Generic Chaos
Troop
Generic Chaos
Generic Chaos



Which is it that people are referring to?

If the only requirement is that the models are from the same FACTION in any given Detachment, can I make a Combined Arms Detachment consisting of Marneus Calgar (SM HQ), Draigo (GK HQ), a unit of Death Company (BA Troops), a unit of Grey Hunters (SW Troops) and a Leman Russ Squadron (AM/IG Heavy Support)?

All of those units are the same faction.

The rules tend to fall apart unless you keep one detachment to one source.

I believe RaI is one detachment to one codex/supplement.

The Space Marine FAQ is quite clear on this matter:
You can only "choose one of the chapters", so no Calgar with White Scar bikers in 1 detachment.

I don't know how exactly the rulebook treats the Supplement Codex, but i do remember it has wording about how you include them in detachments

 BlackTalos wrote:


I don't know how exactly the rulebook treats the Supplement Codex, but i do remember it has wording about how you include them in detachments

Rulebook says that supplements count as the same Faction as the core codex they are a supplement to.

But I'm not adding two different Chapters of Space Marines (defined as different Chapter Tactics, but selected from Codex:Space Marines or supplements). I'm talking about adding Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights and Astra Militarum all to the same Detachment. They are all the same Faction. What is stopping me?

I'm not adding two different types of Chapter Tactics. I acknowledge that I wouldn't be able to add Codex:Space Marines/Ultramarines and Codex:Space Marines/White Scars to the same detachment due to that restriction.

It HAS to be one detachment per codex/supplement for nearly all of their rules to even WORK, and anyone reading the rules for supplements should notice it instantly.

Their rules are not unit-wide effects, they are detachment-wide effects, there is simply no way to justify a "units in X detachment" rules to apply to only a part of the detachment.

Though rules like "The Bringers of Despair" that does not specifically state 'in X detachment" are fair play. though these loopholes are rare indeed, in fact "The Bringers of Despair" is the only supplement rule I am aware of that is NOT clearly written as detachment-wide effect, only requiring abbadon as warlord (and any CSM army can get THAT done)

It looks like to me you can mix CSM, BL, but not CSM, BL, CS?

 Kriswall wrote:
But I'm not adding two different Chapters of Space Marines (defined as different Chapter Tactics, but selected from Codex:Space Marines or supplements). I'm talking about adding Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights and Astra Militarum all to the same Detachment. They are all the same Faction. What is stopping me?

I'm not adding two different types of Chapter Tactics. I acknowledge that I wouldn't be able to add Codex:Space Marines/Ultramarines and Codex:Space Marines/White Scars to the same detachment due to that restriction.

Thyere not the same faction, are they? DIfferent codexes so different factions

Is there any rule that specifically states that all units within a detachment have to be chosen from the same Codex or Supplement? I'm still reading this as that they have to be chosen from the same Faction only.

Faction does not equal Codex/Supplement.

The "Armies of the Imperium" Faction includes...
Codex: Space Marine
Supplement: Clan Raukaan
Supplement: Sentinels of Terra
Codex: Dark Angels
Codex: Blood Angels
Codex: Space Wolves
Codex: Grey Knights
Codex: Adepta Sororitas
Codex: Inquisition
Codex: Legion of the Damned
Codex: Astra Militarum
Codex: Tempestus Militarum
Codex: Imperial Knights

Given that all units/models chosen for a specific detachment have to be from the same Faction... is there any RaW evidence (please cite rules source/page number) to prevent me from mixing and matching from the above sources.

The same would go for the "Eldar" Faction or "Chaos" Faction, etc. I'm just using the Armies of the Imperium to illustrate how ridiculous their selection of units to choose from is.

 Kriswall wrote:
Is there any rule that specifically states that all units within a detachment have to be chosen from the same Codex or Supplement? I'm still reading this as that they have to be chosen from the same Faction only.

Faction does not equal Codex/Supplement.

The "Armies of the Imperium" Faction includes...
Codex: Space Marine
Supplement: Clan Raukaan
Supplement: Sentinels of Terra
Codex: Dark Angels
Codex: Blood Angles
Codex: Space Wolves
Codex: Grey Knights
Codex: Adepta Sororitas
Codex: Inquisition
Codex: Legion of the Damned
Codex: Astra Militarum
Codex: Tempestus Militarum
Codex: Imperial Knights

Given that all units/models chosen for a specific detachment have to be from the same Faction... is there any RaW evidence (please cite rules source/page number) to prevent me from mixing and matching from the above sources.

The same would go for the "Eldar" Faction or "Chaos" Faction, etc. I'm just using the Armies of the Imperium to illustrate how ridiculous their selection of units to choose from is.

That is completely wrong, sorry.

Please read p118:
the Faction of all the units described in a codex is the same as the codex title.

"Armies of the Imperium" is not a Faction.

Codex: Dark Angels is a Faction.
Codex: Blood Angels is a Faction.

They cannot share a CAD.

Ah... this makes sense. So, to properly help me understand... the "Armies of the Imperium" thing is just a lazy shorthand to keep GW from having to write out a larger allies chart?

Yes, but honeslty its a good thing-saves lots of space.

And ou completely disregard the point the supplement rules by themselves do not effect units, but effect detachments. go read a supplement's rules before "find loopholes"

Taken together they describe, and are treated for all rules purposes as, a single Army List Entry. When using such a codex, each unit’s Faction is the same as its codex title. For example, all units in Codex: Space Marines belong to the Space Marines Faction, whilst all units in Codex: Chaos Daemons belong to the Chaos Daemons Faction.

In the case of older publications, the Faction of all the units described in a codex is the same as the codex’s title. In the case of codex supplements, the Faction of all the units described in that publication is the same as the codex it is a supplement of.

Units that have the following Factions are considered to be Armies of the Imperium:

Armies of the Imperium is not a "faction", it's a general category in order to include all the sub factions, but it's not a Faction itself because there is no "Codex : Armies of the Imperium.

Hollismason wrote:
Taken together they describe, and are treated for all rules purposes as, a single Army List Entry. When using such a codex, each unit’s Faction is the same as its codex title. For example, all units in Codex: Space Marines belong to the Space Marines Faction, whilst all units in Codex: Chaos Daemons belong to the Chaos Daemons Faction.

You got a page and paragraph? was looking for this one.

Gotcha.

So I can take Tau Empire and Farsight Enclaves in the same detachment according to this as the both belong to Faction: Tau Empire.

This becomes confusing because the Farsight Enclaves book references a Farsight Enclaves Detachment (see the FAQ) which doesn't appear to be a thing. It seems we can only have a Tau Empire Detachment and that a detachment composed entirely of Farsight Enclaves units would still be a Tau Empire Detachment.

And that is why they are obviously not one and the same, and there must be a difference in codex detachment and supplement detachment.
Otherwise the supplements brake and none of their rules apply.

I do not own the Codex:Farsight Enclave, but when the FAQ says:

Replace all instances of "Farsight Enclaves army" with "Farsight Enclaves Detachment"

Does this only limit you to taking a "pure" Farsight detachment? And not actually allow "standard Tau" in that particular detachment?