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Platinum molds are worth more than gold, and that is just in material, machining costs add a lot more. The average gamer doesn't know that molds used in plastic injection manufacturing have to be replaced frequently, and platinum masters are made to proof the molds that are use in the actual machines. That's a huge investment. And its a huge investment for each sprue in a model kit.

Now, I'm not saying GW doesn't have the resources to tool up a line to produce any model kit they want. However, I am saying that new model kits are big upfront investments that requires a minimum of production runs to recoup the start up, something GW is just too small of a company to do for Warlord size models. FW produces limited run models at a far lower start up, yet cannot produce in volume like GW can. Based on GW's financial model, we are not going to see plastic Thunderhawks nor plastic Warhounds in the near future. We might see them in another 5-8 years, if GW doesn't kill off their fanbase by then.

SJ

 kronk wrote:
Fair point. The last example of FW ---> GW was the Hydra, though.

There was a FW kit for years. The GW release came out with AM this year.

From what I read on here the Hydra mould seemed to be breaking down, so maybe that's why GW released the new kit. Remember, GW=FW, and FW=GW [something lots of people on here try to ignore, even though they work in the same building, to justify the contradiction of their FW habit and GW hate]. So, in answer to the OP, no, it won't happen, because GW would be shooting itself in the foot by undercutting itself.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Platinum molds are worth more than gold, and that is just in material, machining costs add a lot more. The average gamer doesn't know that molds used in plastic injection manufacturing have to be replaced frequently, and platinum masters are made to proof the molds that are use in the actual machines. That's a huge investment. And its a huge investment for each sprue in a model kit.

I think you're getting your materials seriously mixed up there. Injection plastic molds are made by getting a block of solid steel and using a mechanically controlled powertool or a computer controlled laser to etch the 'miniature' negatives into it, those molds are good for several hundred thousand castings. It's the silicone rubber molds used for metal and resin figures that are short lived (a few thousand for the former, a few dozen for the latter) and use a platinum based catalyst for setting the rubber.

 TheKbob wrote:

 knas ser wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
Why, a massive meter tall model should cost so much money, it'd be asinine. I mean, we already pay $85 for 6.5"~ Riptides and $115 for 9" tall Wraithknights. Even a Revenant Titan is $300+ and 12~14".

Impossible, this is asinine, it could...

...wait, what... Japan you say? Does this already...?

Huh...

Spoiler:

FOR ROUGHLY $270 USD
SOURCE

Seriously, stop giving GW any credit.

Whilst I am of the opinion that the miniatures are overpriced, I don't think that example is a fair comparison. It has far less detail than GW or FW miniatures.

EDIT: Of course, that could also just be a very small woman.

The kits are detailed for the art style they have chosen, primarily the anime theme. It's got a ton of little bits (I've built a couple Master Grades now) and nothing is stopping from further conversions with plasticard and greenstuff. Since these kits are significantly cheaper than their GW counterparts, you can spring on some extra modeling stuffs and go to town. The added bonus' to those kits is that they are colored plastics. Some people do not want to paint large scale miniatures and would rather have an "out of the box" solution. For $270, you have a kit that's a preset color scheme that needs no other changes to be "table legal" in the bare plastic form. Further, the models are still fully articulate and come with multiple weapon options.

The amount of plastic, let alone multicolored sprued plastic, I get in a Master Grade kit for $65~ shipped for a 12" model makes anything GW produce look like child's play. Yes, the focused on adding more fiddly bits, but that's the art style, not the limitations on technology or cost.

The model can be seen on the source with just how big the box is containing the sprues. You can also see the model in comparison to other kits. It's probably about a meter tall, being much larger than most of the Forgeworld Titans and clocking in at a third of their price for probably quadruple the material and being fully articulate to boot, let alone being more lightweight plastic versus a massive hunk of resin (which will probably need a lot more love and care than the plastic used for Gundam kits). Many of the Imperial Titans (and Eldar Titans) feature large smooth/flat pieces as well that do not have distinct amounts of detail. I have a Revenant in box and I'm dreading building that more than I would a Gundam kit of the same size.

I get the perception people have on these kits, but fiddling with them as I have has made me completely baffled on how GW can charge so much for so little when it comes to their big stompy models. Even if that woman is only 4' tall, that's still a 2' tall model for $270. The Reaver Titan is about 16" tall and is currently $720 shipped.

1) Its an Asian import, cheapness is hardly surprising, the cheap models my friend has brought back from China never cease to amaze me, included but not limited to £5-10 model tanks, £15 fully articulated 3/4 Knight size Japan/anime mech thing, hell one of his friends once effectively tried to smuggle out many boxes of cigarettes and made an insane amount of profit that way.

2) Compared to other big names in markets for wargames, there is hardly any difference in pricing, the only real difference is how many models you need and the value of each unit in points. If that's an issue for you, eh, whatever, you're playing the wrong game. 40k is larger scale inherently.

How is it that GW is reviled so badly for £85 Knights when the Cygnar Stormwall is £79 and both looks ugly and has less detail, Privateer Press I've seen championed for being the anti-GW in fact. Dust tactics, Dropzone Commander (to a lesser extent), Warmahordes, X-Wing (£10 for each tiny fighter, eh what), Infinity (How anyone thinks these are high quality is beyond me, I bought one of the blister packs and was frankly horrified by how crappy it was for £9~)

I'm not actually so much as saying these wargames are bad, just that there are some parallels in pricing levels.

3) I've seen the "but look at this M1A1/Gundam/Tank kit by this obscure specific manufacturer (probably from Asia) priced with way lower profit margins, intended for modellers! Look at how distinctly expensive GW's models are!" so many times its nauseating and beyond a joke now.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
How is it that GW is reviled so badly for £85 Knights when the Cygnar Stormwall is £79 and both looks ugly and has less detail, Privateer Press I've seen championed for being the anti-GW in fact. Dust tactics, Dropzone Commander (to a lesser extent), Warmahordes, X-Wing (£10 for each tiny fighter, eh what), Infinity (How anyone thinks these are high quality is beyond me, I bought one of the blister packs and was frankly horrified by how crappy it was for £9~)

Because total cost matters. That $10 ship for X-Wing also comes with all the tokens/rules/etc that it requires, and is at least 25% of a typical squadron. A $50 kit for 40k might be 10% of a typical army, and it requires a $50 codex and potentially even more money in conversion parts to use the options GW doesn't include in the box.

3) I've seen the "but look at this M1A1/Gundam/Tank kit by this obscure specific manufacturer priced with way lower profit margins, intended for modellers! Look at how distinctly expensive GW's models are!" so many times its nauseating and beyond a joke now.

You're right, it is a joke. GW produces mediocre kits and prices them as if they were high-end ones, and still somehow fails to make all that much money doing it.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
How is it that GW is reviled so badly for £85 Knights when the Cygnar Stormwall is £79 and both looks ugly and has less detail, Privateer Press I've seen championed for being the anti-GW in fact. Dust tactics, Dropzone Commander (to a lesser extent), Warmahordes, X-Wing (£10 for each tiny fighter, eh what), Infinity (How anyone thinks these are high quality is beyond me, I bought one of the blister packs and was frankly horrified by how crappy it was for £9~)

Because total cost matters. That $10 ship for X-Wing also comes with all the tokens/rules/etc that it requires, and is at least 25% of a typical squadron. A $50 kit for 40k might be 10% of a typical army, and it requires a $50 codex and potentially even more money in conversion parts to use the options GW doesn't include in the box.

3) I've seen the "but look at this M1A1/Gundam/Tank kit by this obscure specific manufacturer priced with way lower profit margins, intended for modellers! Look at how distinctly expensive GW's models are!" so many times its nauseating and beyond a joke now.

You're right, it is a joke. GW produces mediocre kits and prices them as if they were high-end ones, and still somehow fails to make all that much money doing it.

1) Total cost only truly matters if the only thing you see in a wargame is gameplay and convenience, (which don't get me wrong, is completely fine) whereas some, including myself, want good models, a collection that is satisfying to build up and look at, and large degrees of variation to do from game to game (though that's a weaker one compared to some wargames) amongst several other things. In X-Wing, its hard to contend that the models aren't mediocre, there's few of them, and they're still a rip off materials wise just the same as with GW. Its like looking at an entire table's worth of black pottery and pointing fingers at the largest one because it sticks out the most, and then comparing it to discount china pottery from the local market.

I am mostly just commenting on specific model prices as I won't even try to argue wrongly that the total cost of 40k isn't complete BS, but generally the models alone aren't that much more expensive, or even just as much as a rip off or just as overpriced as with other manufacturers.

2) Compared to the rest of the big name wargaming scene? That can be said for almost all of them.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
1) Total cost only truly matters if the only thing you see in a wargame is gameplay. In X-Wing, its hard to contend that the models aren't mediocre, there's few of them, and they're still a rip off materials wise just the same as with GW. Its like looking at an entire table's worth of black pottery and pointing fingers at the largest one because it sticks out the most, and then comparing it to discount china pottery from the local market.

Well yeah, when I'm talking about wargaming the most important thing is gameplay. X-Wing models are good enough for what they do, and the total cost to play the game (which is much more enjoyable than 40k) is significantly less.

And as for model quality, no, GW's kits aren't really that great. The detail quality/number of casting flaws/etc aren't really any better, the kits are just bigger and have more room for skulls. If you ignore the gameplay side and focus on the hobby then you have to compare GW's kits to non-gaming kits that offer much higher quality at equal or lower prices. The only thing GW has to offer is the fact that you can play a game with your incredibly expensive toys.

I am mostly just commenting on specific model prices as I won't even try to argue wrongly that the total cost of 40k is complete BS, but generally the models alone aren't that much more expensive, or even just as much as a rip off or just as overpriced as with other manufacturers.

But the point is that the per-model cost isn't how most people look at it. I don't care what the cost per volume of plastic sprues is, I care about how much it costs to put a unit/army on the table. The fact that an X-Wing ship might not have the best price to sprue volume ratio doesn't bother me as much because the total cost of playing the game is much lower. 40k fails on both points, the total cost is so high that the price issues with the individual models are painfully obvious.

2) Compared to the rest of the big name wargaming scene? That can be said for almost all of them.

And? You're talking about comparisons to non-wargaming models there. And when you compare GW kits to non-wargaming kits it's just a joke.

The same goes for everything gw do now. If they make the model reasonably priced, enough people would buy it to justify the manufacturing cost. If they stand there and say "well if we did make a plastic warhound we'd HAVE to charge $800 US for it, and our market research says no one will pay that, so we won't do it because if no one buys it we won't be able to afford the one off $800 US cost of a mould".

but yeah titans are a bad example because they are already niche in terms of actual playability. Some more fw vehicle choices would be good in plastic, like macharius..es...machari'i?

The price of a Shokk Gun is exorbitant if they are still able to sell Eldar Support weapons and Loota boxes for 25 dollars US. Period.

Ralis wrote:
No. I don't think its necessary.

But GW would never actually make the move to produce a plastic version of a model already made by Forge World. Not only would they have two versions of the same model competing against each other, but now they have additional development costs of a second kit.

They have done it plenty of times now.
Skyray
Piranha
Plasma cannon Leman Russ
"Big nid thing" (I forgot it's name)
Hydra flak tank
Baneblade and variants
Venerable dreads

And I bet there are more that I'm missing that's just what I can come up with off the top of my head. So it is possible for a warhound or any other kit forgeworld makes

 wilsmire wrote:
They have done it plenty of times now.

But they've pretty much stopped. GW realized that there's no point in making plastic versions of FW kits because all it does is transfer sales of the FW kit to the new plastic one. Instead it's much better to invent a whole new unit to make a plastic kit, keep selling the FW one, and get people to buy both of them. This might be kind of annoying if you care about the fluff, but GW is clearly willing to invent random unfluffy stuff just to make sure they can sell a new $50 toy.

As for the Hydra, I think it's an exception to the rule. The FW Hydra was an ancient kit, and the molds were in pretty bad shape. It was notorious for casting problems, warped barrels that are a pain to deal with, etc. It's pretty bad to have a codex unit that carries a giant "do not buy this nightmare of a kit" sign on it, so I can see GW making an exception to their usual policy and replacing the FW Hydra just so they could stop having to deal with it.

 Gashrog wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Platinum molds are worth more than gold, and that is just in material, machining costs add a lot more. The average gamer doesn't know that molds used in plastic injection manufacturing have to be replaced frequently, and platinum masters are made to proof the molds that are use in the actual machines. That's a huge investment. And its a huge investment for each sprue in a model kit.

I think you're getting your materials seriously mixed up there. Injection plastic molds are made by getting a block of solid steel and using a mechanically controlled powertool or a computer controlled laser to etch the 'miniature' negatives into it, those molds are good for several hundred thousand castings. It's the silicone rubber molds used for metal and resin figures that are short lived (a few thousand for the former, a few dozen for the latter) and use a platinum based catalyst for setting the rubber.

You don't use platinum for molds. Platinum is used for masters, precision reference standards that are used to proof new steel molds that are cut to replace old molds that are hitting end of life. Platinum master are used to calibrate, not as catalysts.

If I wanted to catalyze rubber, I'd use a Platinum/Ruthenium gause, not a solid Platinum mold.

SJ

 Mr.Omega wrote:


1) Its an Asian import, cheapness is hardly surprising, the cheap models my friend has brought back from China never cease to amaze me, included but not limited to £5-10 model tanks, £15 fully articulated 3/4 Knight size Japan/anime mech thing, hell one of his friends once effectively tried to smuggle out many boxes of cigarettes and made an insane amount of profit that way.

2) Compared to other big names in markets for wargames, there is hardly any difference in pricing, the only real difference is how many models you need and the value of each unit in points. If that's an issue for you, eh, whatever, you're playing the wrong game. 40k is larger scale inherently.

How is it that GW is reviled so badly for £85 Knights when the Cygnar Stormwall is £79 and both looks ugly and has less detail, Privateer Press I've seen championed for being the anti-GW in fact. Dust tactics, Dropzone Commander (to a lesser extent), Warmahordes, X-Wing (£10 for each tiny fighter, eh what), Infinity (How anyone thinks these are high quality is beyond me, I bought one of the blister packs and was frankly horrified by how crappy it was for £9~)

I'm not actually so much as saying these wargames are bad, just that there are some parallels in pricing levels.

3) I've seen the "but look at this M1A1/Gundam/Tank kit by this obscure specific manufacturer (probably from Asia) priced with way lower profit margins, intended for modellers! Look at how distinctly expensive GW's models are!" so many times its nauseating and beyond a joke now.

Asian imports has nothing really to do with it. These aren't off-brand recasts or knock-offs, but actually model kits from legit companies. So not sure what point of origin the model kit has to do with the matter.

Others companies may have as high or higher per single model cost, but you only need 10~20 determining on the game. And yes, this has a massive impact, along with the rules cost, for total player input to go from zero to "competitive". Competitive in the sense you are playing at the standard points level of your scene. And not sure what you're buying from other companies, but I know that all the new Infinity models are fantastic:



Yes, the OG models are kinda funky from Infinity, but they know that. Can't speak to Dust, DZC, etc. Warmahordes uses "restic" and needs to come a lot farther. Can't comment on the Colossus because I've never bought one. But the Colossus is usually "one and done" versus trying to pimp Knights as a codex where you should buy five! Or the rest of the army you need with one. For the same cost of one of my 40k armies, I can have three armies in three different games combined. I know because I did just that. Recently, 2 allied detachments plus a pile of conversions and spare models got me a complete p/e Baldur tier army (and I mean complete save the Woldwrath). Two non-complete armies + random models gets me set for an entire army.

And finally, these aren't "sketch" companies again. Dunno where you're getting that from. Also, isn't Games Workshop a "model company" first? They say it all the time. So why aren't they pricing for modelers?

Your logic refuted itself. Golden.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Gashrog wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Platinum molds are worth more than gold, and that is just in material, machining costs add a lot more. The average gamer doesn't know that molds used in plastic injection manufacturing have to be replaced frequently, and platinum masters are made to proof the molds that are use in the actual machines. That's a huge investment. And its a huge investment for each sprue in a model kit.

I think you're getting your materials seriously mixed up there. Injection plastic molds are made by getting a block of solid steel and using a mechanically controlled powertool or a computer controlled laser to etch the 'miniature' negatives into it, those molds are good for several hundred thousand castings. It's the silicone rubber molds used for metal and resin figures that are short lived (a few thousand for the former, a few dozen for the latter) and use a platinum based catalyst for setting the rubber.

You don't use platinum for molds.

I'm confused. First jeffersonian000 says platinum moulds are worth more than gold. Then Gashrog says you don't make moulds out of platinum. Then jeffersonian000 replies to them saying that you don't make moulds out of platinum.

Did the quotes get mixed up or is it me?

Yes they should make one

 TheKbob wrote:
Competitive in the sense you are playing at the standard points level of your scene. And not sure what you're buying from other companies, but I know that all the new Infinity models are fantastic:

Spoiler:

Okay. Now THAT is a good comparison. Lovely detail there (and very good paintwork). How much does that model cost? If it's cheaper than GW miniatures then we have a problem. (Well, GW do).

EDIT: Okay - I went to the Infinity site and looked through the armies until I found it. Apparently it's half of a pack of two sold for €35.95 which is around £28.60 or $48.70. So halve that per model for the sake of argument (£14.30).

It's tricky to pick an equivalent model with GW. I could go with an Vyper Jetbike which I think could be a fair comparison. The Vyper is a little larger but far simpler. And it's sold individually at £18.50. Better comparison might be an Autarch on a Jetbike as that's more character-y. Call the jetbike £7 (sold in packs of three for £20) and then the Autarch kit upgrade is £11 (now THAT is a rip off). So you're looking at £18.

I'm open to other suggestions for comparison. I just picked Eldar because I'm most familiar with them.

EDIT: EDIT: X-Wing miniatures were brought up. I don't think these are an easy comparison for two reasons. Firstly, as others have pointed out, they come with rules cards, tokens, new pilots. Secondly, they are pre-painted. I'm ignoring the issue of how many you need because that comes down to some complex issues of what sort of game system you like and whether it's fair or not to criticise GW for creating a game with larger number of miniatures by default. But these two concrete issues are significant, imo.

In regards to the comparisons in prices between GW/Privateer/etc models and Asia-based models like the gundam kits and whatnot, I have to wonder what the working conditions and pay grade are like for the asian factory worker who makes these compared to the Western equivalent. If the reason the models are so cheap is because the companies pay their uninsured employees 50 cents/hour and put them in dangerous badly insulated warehouses, then yeah no kidding they're going to be cheaper.

As far as GW making big ol' plastic titans, they will never be of equivalent detail to what Forgeworld puts out with resin. It's physically impossible for plastic molds to put in details the same way. That isn't to say they wouldn't be pretty nice looking though. If the Knight is any example then GW, whatever else you want to say about them, makes very nice well designed plastic kits that have come a long way since their first forays into plastic. Saying something like the Dreamforge Leviathan has less detail is kind of an understatement. It's like comparing Legos and Megabloks. Though unfortunately, the comparison also works in regards to the pricetag.

Ralis wrote:


The people that really want those large super-heavies will pay the price for them, Or scratch build their own.

Or get a Chinese recast. But that would be pure evil!

We don't compare GW's prices to other wargaming companies because GW is the market leader and therefore set the pricing bar, by the way.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
We don't compare GW's prices to other wargaming companies because GW is the market leader and therefore set the pricing bar, by the way.

Is that sarcasm? (Genuinely not sure).

I don't see why the latter means I can't do the former.

 Badablack wrote:
In regards to the comparisons in prices between GW/Privateer/etc models and Asia-based models like the gundam kits and whatnot, I have to wonder what the working conditions and pay grade are like for the asian factory worker who makes these compared to the Western equivalent. If the reason the models are so cheap is because the companies pay their uninsured employees 50 cents/hour and put them in dangerous badly insulated warehouses, then yeah no kidding they're going to be cheaper.

As far as GW making big ol' plastic titans, they will never be of equivalent detail to what Forgeworld puts out with resin. It's physically impossible for plastic molds to put in details the same way. That isn't to say they wouldn't be pretty nice looking though. If the Knight is any example then GW, whatever else you want to say about them, makes very nice well designed plastic kits that have come a long way since their first forays into plastic. Saying something like the Dreamforge Leviathan has less detail is kind of an understatement. It's like comparing Legos and Megabloks. Though unfortunately, the comparison also works in regards to the pricetag.

That logic doesn't stop say, and iPhone, costing $600+ even though the labor is cheap. It just means better margins. And you could get detail in large plastic kits, that's just nonsense.

Rather, it's because without the game, the cost of the models would be far too high and wouldn't actually support a modeler's hobby as there are plenty of other kits and bits out there that do it better.

Also, with big named companies like Andrea making "real painters models," you can see what the difference is between a $50 GW play model and a $50 display piece.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 knas ser wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
Competitive in the sense you are playing at the standard points level of your scene. And not sure what you're buying from other companies, but I know that all the new Infinity models are fantastic:

Spoiler:

Okay. Now THAT is a good comparison. Lovely detail there (and very good paintwork). How much does that model cost? If it's cheaper than GW miniatures then we have a problem. (Well, GW do).

EDIT: Okay - I went to the Infinity site and looked through the armies until I found it. Apparently it's half of a pack of two sold for €35.95 which is around £28.60 or $48.70. So halve that per model for the sake of argument (£14.30).

It's tricky to pick an equivalent model with GW. I could go with an Vyper Jetbike which I think could be a fair comparison. The Vyper is a little larger but far simpler. And it's sold individually at £18.50. Better comparison might be an Autarch on a Jetbike as that's more character-y. Call the jetbike £7 (sold in packs of three for £20) and then the Autarch kit upgrade is £11 (now THAT is a rip off). So you're looking at £18.

I'm open to other suggestions for comparison. I just picked Eldar because I'm most familiar with them.

The Kum Riders can be purchased for $44 USD, and if you want, $35 from most online stores. The points for them is a bit over 30 out of a standard 300 pt game, or 10% of your army. For a similar 1850, you'd need 5 units of jetbikes which are the same price in USD from around the internet. So five times the cost to equal the same weight on the table top in terms of game points. If you play 1500 it's a bit better or if you play 2000 it's a bit worse.

The riders also have far greater detail and are better models than the GW Eldar bikes, but everyone knows they need resculpted. Not quite fair comparing ancient sculpts to modern, just released ones. But the pricing should be better in a smaller scale, highly detailed metal mini versus an old, plastic sculpt IMO.

 knas ser wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
We don't compare GW's prices to other wargaming companies because GW is the market leader and therefore set the pricing bar, by the way.

Is that sarcasm? (Genuinely not sure).

I don't see why the latter means I can't do the former.

Companies are inherently linked to their market. This means that they are linked to each other. For competitors, this usually means trying to either increase quality or decrease prices. Shop A and Shop B are going to each try to sell Product X at a lower price than the other, but still as expensively as they can. It's just basic business practice, and it means that the market is constantly changing as the competitors adapt to each others strategies. However, Games Workshop is the giant in the playground that does as it pleases, and every other company in the market must adapt to it, not the other way around. If GW's prices lowered, so would those of Privateer Press. The opposite is not true.

We can compare GW's prices and product quality to a similar market, though, and that's what we're doing by talking about the Bandai Gundam kits and the like. They are not subject to GW's market dominance because they're in an entirely different market. In short, GW could be like these companies and chooses not to. I highly recommend you purchase a Gundam kit for the experience of putting it together. I enjoyed it a great deal.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:


Companies are inherently linked to their market. This means that they are linked to each other. For competitors, this usually means trying to either increase quality or decrease prices. Shop A and Shop B are going to each try to sell Product X at a lower price than the other, but still as expensively as they can. It's just basic business practice, and it means that the market is constantly changing as the competitors adapt to each others strategies. However, is the giant in the playground that does as it pleases, and every other company in the market must adapt to it, not the other way around. If GW's prices lowered, so would those of Privateer Press. The opposite is not true.

We can compare GW's prices and product quality to a similar market, though, and that's what we're doing by talking about the Bandai Gundam kits and the like. They are not subject to GW's market dominance because they're in an entirely different market. In short, GW could be like these companies and chooses not to. I highly recommend you purchase a Gundam kit for the experience of putting it together. I enjoyed it a great deal.

My first one was Zeta 2. I highly recommend that NOT being your first one. One of the hardest kits in the series.

PP pricing has gotten to be a bit much, but their new sculpts are pretty fantastic. I bought Una the Falconer and she was $18 for a single mini, but I got a solid metal mini with tons of detail versus a standard Finecast 28mm space marine duder or elf guy.

Not until they finally release plastic Sisters of Battle.

 BlackArmour wrote:
My question is simple should they also make a version of the warhound / reaver titans or bio titan

Warhound/Reavers/Thunderhawks are for sissies.

Plastic, pewter, I don't care, but GW should definitely make a Capitol Imperialis, or at the very last, a 4+ ft Imperator Titan.

I thnk it's pretty obvious GW will continue the size creep, that this will keep goin right up to Titans is in my mind inevitable, whether they will make THE titans already out there, doubtful. They'll probably just retcon something and make some different ones.

 Inquisitor Bob wrote:
I thnk it's pretty obvious GW will continue the size creep, that this will keep goin right up to Titans is in my mind inevitable, whether they will make THE titans already out there, doubtful. They'll probably just retcon something and make some different ones.

I hope your right, crosses fingers for a medusa V style Tomb stalker.

 Melissia wrote:
Not until *snip* pigs fly.

Fixed that for you.

 TheKbob wrote:
Asian imports has nothing really to do with it. These aren't off-brand recasts or knock-offs, but actually model kits from legit companies. So not sure what point of origin the model kit has to do with the matter.

I have found that it Asian imports/products are often cheaper, recasts/knock offs or not. Maybe that's down to cheaper production or lower profit margins or something, I'm no economics professor, but that's something I've gathered. Otherwise, consider this is a moot point on my part, and my bad.

 TheKbob wrote:
And not sure what you're buying from other companies, but I know that all the new Infinity models are fantastic:

Spoiler:

This is not really a great point of debate seeing as how it it is mostly subjective, but I can't really disagree here, the new models are pretty good. They are, on the other hand, absurdly priced, and "wib-dib-doo you need less of them" doesn't cut it for me.

 TheKbob wrote:
......but you only need 10~20 determining on the game. And yes, this has a massive impact, along with the rules cost, for total player input to go from zero to "competitive". Competitive in the sense you are playing at the standard points level of your scene. .......

Yes, the OG models are kinda funky from Infinity, but they know that. Can't speak to Dust, DZC, etc. Warmahordes uses "restic" and needs to come a lot farther. Can't comment on the Colossus because I've never bought one. But the Colossus is usually "one and done" versus trying to pimp Knights as a codex where you should buy five! Or the rest of the army you need with one. For the same cost of one of my 40k armies, I can have three armies in three different games combined. I know because I did just that. Recently, 2 allied detachments plus a pile of conversions and spare models got me a complete p/e Baldur tier army (and I mean complete save the Woldwrath). Two non-complete armies + random models gets me set for an entire army.

Really, this only goes to show you did not read my post, because I pointlessly made a disclaimer to demonstrate that gameplay value/force value is totally irrelevant to my point and disregarding all but the models themselves, GW is not distinctly the only company that charges excessive amounts for their models.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

2) Compared to other big names in markets for wargames, there is hardly any difference in pricing, the only real difference is how many models you need and the value of each unit in points. If that's an issue for you, eh, whatever, you're playing the wrong game. 40k is larger scale inherently.

Dayuum.

In fact, most of them in the wargaming scene charge excessive amounts on the models. People who act like X-Wing isn't highway robbery because the pieces of card and plastic included in the box (that have a material worth measured in pennies) and the factory-paint job on the minis are somehow a-ok in justifying paying £10 for a mini the size of a coin surprise me when they act like GW's pricing is far more obscene. (it is obscene. Just not far above X-Wing in measure)

 TheKbob wrote:
Also, isn't Games Workshop a "model company" first? They say it all the time. So why aren't they pricing for modelers?

Your logic refuted itself. Golden.

I'm not directly defending GW, I'm saying they're not the lone black sheep in the field. Their pricing is dumb; the fact is taking obscure specific model companies as a way of saying GW is distinctly expensive when in the overall wargaming scene they're one of many companies charging large and similar amounts for models is a bit absurd.

Today I went to the Duxford Imperial War Mueseum, and there were tons of models, loads of tents selling hobby kits, practically everywhere. Let me tell you that 95% of all tanks marginally larger than a Leman Russ, with typically less detail and thinner, more fragile plastic were £30 or above, a large portion being £40-50. They're priced for modellers, having no direct wargame use of any kind. For reference an LRBT in the UK is £31 and has undeniably multiple options included.

You're evidently so fired up and full of words needing saying at a corporate entity you misinterpreted my post for being a full-on justification of GW's prices. I can't tell whether you're strawmanning or just rambling blind.

Golden.

No, no. Scratch that. Uranium. The radiation ionised my brain cells.

 Sigvatr wrote:
I have never seen anyone actually buying a Titan. All of the ones I saw were scratch-built. Understandably so.

yes cos no one buys them.



and i also want to say KBob has been on a crusade for a looong time from what iv seen with a nice anti-GW message, whilst its not totally undeserved in most cases what he says, its his key message. buy other stuff look to other systems.

now should GW make "medium" sized kits? meh im a little ambivalent there, they are gonna do it anyway, eg the knight, and the new Ork model. then from there do we really need any more of the craziness in the game, well maybe not as a priority, but GW exist to sell models, so we will be getting it.
do i want to see a plastic thunderhawk/warhound, nahhh a reaver maybe
do i want to see a medium sized kit with the rules of a warhound etc. an emphatic NO to that one.

Yep, I'm against what GW's current policies are because they are bad business. And if you read some of the other threads that actually focus on this subject, you'll see the facts lining up for their own demise based on their own actions.

I'd love for them to be doing better. And, in my opinion, outside of Finecast, I don't really mind most of their pricing per say with regards to the models. The stripping of old kits from 10 man down to 5 man and upping the price are outright laughable. Their big stuff is also a joke. Some kits are still rockstar like the Space Marine Tactical box. But that's always been a loss leader. Something like a Dreadnought is crummy at $45 compared to some other figs you can get at that price.

The Infinity models, at least newer ones, aesthetic aside, have a quantitative increase in fidelity and quality. What they are able to do at truescale 28mm is mind blowing and it helps having one of the best painters I've seen as your studio guy. And I don't feel the Kum Riders are over priced when actually compared to collector grade pewter minis meant for painting, such as my personal favorite, Andrea. There's a case for high cost resin when deserved, like Scibor, but his stuff is leagues beyond what GW does in their terrible resin.

Privateer Press is a bit gnarly in their pricing and armies can quickly cost $600. However, the literal game part makes that easier to swallow as you know you're never really investing in bad units while also knowing that you aren't going to make someone hate you for playing them (unless you're a Legion player, but we'll save that for another day... ).

I'm on no "crusade" per say. I just dislike people trying to throw facts of the matter aside and generating a negative environment for 40k. Saying everything wrong with GW games is the players fault is creating a highly toxic environment because you're quick to label someone with an army that beats you or you don't like as "TFG" or "WAAC" and it creates a stigma. Yea, we're all adults in the matter and can work through it. Or I'd rather go one step beyond, lay blame where blame is due and play something else. I haven't sold any of my armies or collections of 40k because I do enjoy the models a great deal. Hell, I want to love the games. And if there are some amazing Bretonnia models come July... well...

Also, the new dwarfs models are baller. If I didn't need about $700+ of them and people to play Fantasy with, I'd be getting some. But if I just want a unit of dwarfs to paint, I'd probably spend a bit more and get the ones from Scibor.