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 Ignatius wrote:
I think the word I would use to describe my thoughts after reading most of this thread is: baffled.

So you're telling me that chaos space marines have no identity, specialization, or anything that makes playing them different between armies?

Have you people ever looked at the Imperial Guard? An army that is totally different depending on the regiment you play as fluff wise, yet has ZERO differences between actual gameplay armies. With codex chaos marines, you at least get different marks to use. You guys are all complaining marks don't satisfy your desires to play differently and create an identity, but yet are ignoring the fact that almost on other codex allows players to differentiate between their average units.

I could create a thread about how good chaos has it compared to guard, what with their different marks, icons, cult troops, relics, war gear options, etc. What do guard get?

Go ahead I'll wait.

Since you won't be able to come up with anything I'll continue; this isn't about guard I know. But it's important to bring it up because GW gives chaos many more opportunities than most other factions. There is only so much rules writing can do. It's up to players to find identities for their own armies and fight that way.

I play chaos almost as much as my guard. With chaos, I get to use Berzerkers, juggernaught lords, and units I can be generally assaults with. With my Mordians I get to... Uhm... Hmm.

You must have glanced over my post saying the same thing.

But remember just because one has it worse doesnt mean both shouldn't be fixed. But I think Imperial Guard have the worst end of the straw certainly.

 Ignatius wrote:
I think the word I would use to describe my thoughts after reading most of this thread is: baffled.

So you're telling me that chaos space marines have no identity, specialization, or anything that makes playing them different between armies?

Have you people ever looked at the Imperial Guard? An army that is totally different depending on the regiment you play as fluff wise, yet has ZERO differences between actual gameplay armies. With codex chaos marines, you at least get different marks to use. You guys are all complaining marks don't satisfy your desires to play differently and create an identity, but yet are ignoring the fact that almost on other codex allows players to differentiate between their average units.

I could create a thread about how good chaos has it compared to guard, what with their different marks, icons, cult troops, relics, war gear options, etc. What do guard get?

Go ahead I'll wait.

Since you won't be able to come up with anything I'll continue; this isn't about guard I know. But it's important to bring it up because GW gives chaos many more opportunities than most other factions. There is only so much rules writing can do. It's up to players to find identities for their own armies and fight that way.

I play chaos almost as much as my guard. With chaos, I get to use Berzerkers, juggernaught lords, and units I can be generally assaults with. With my Mordians I get to... Uhm... Hmm.

I think the difference here is that most Chaos players don't see Chaos Space Marines as a single codex. There really should be seven:

- Thousand Sons
- World Eaters
- Death Guard
- Emperor's children
- Undivided Legions (perhaps with the equivalent of Chapter Tactics for Black Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion)
- Post-Heresy renegades
- Lost and the Damned (cultists and similar)

Think about it this way - Space Marines are represented by no less than four individual codices, each of which plays in a different way. Chaos has one single codex, trying to represent seven hugely different armies, with far greater differences between them than there between any of the SM codices.

Add in the fact that CSM players are not playing purely to win - only the 3.5 codex ever allowed us to do that reliably. Instead, most CSM players are in it because they are really attracted to the background, feel and playstyle of their particular faction. So it's no wonder that most are disappointed that they can't adequately represent that faction... especially when they used to be able to do so with the 3.5 codex and Index Astartes articles!

So I'm starting to see what your talking about, I suppose I was leaning more heavily on the rules side of things but it seems you feel cheated about the looks too. OK that's certainly more fair in my opinion than the rules aspect.

To me, Berzerker plastic models > Mordian Iron Guard Metal models. And I suppose I am a little different in that I convert pretty much ALL my models so doing a little bit of conversion from a bloodcrusher doesn't bother me (in fact I prefer it). The difference between a Khorne model and a black legion model is the color, the head, the weapon, and some chains, skulls, and icons. Easy to make.

Meanwhile, the difference between a Mordian and a Acadian are so profoundly different I may as we'll not even bother trying to convert them. They are just too different aesthetically.

The chaos marins dex is good just coz the helldrake is not uber op anymore it is still a good unit. As are obliterators. My arguement wasnt against god specific parts as id love that for tzeentch. But my arguement was against the way you put it, about how they are completely generic. Rules you can make them how you want, bitz there are some decent god bitz and the capability to convert. And Daemons are not like a generic army they have four different sides to the codex and models represemt their gods (coming from someone who has played them since mid 5th. Im a cron player and are dex is reaply not good. We only have two certain builds that work. Heavy scythe or heavy wraiths. So sstop moaning there are worse off codexs. We cant all be broken like tau.

 necronspurs2012 wrote:
The chaos marins dex is good just coz the helldrake is not uber op anymore it is still a good unit. As are obliterators. My arguement wasnt against god specific parts as id love that for tzeentch. But my arguement was against the way you put it, about how they are completely generic. Rules you can make them how you want, bitz there are some decent god bitz and the capability to convert. And Daemons are not like a generic army they have four different sides to the codex and models represemt their gods (coming from someone who has played them since mid 5th. Im a cron player and are dex is reaply not good. We only have two certain builds that work. Heavy scythe or heavy wraiths. So sstop moaning there are worse off codexs. We cant all be broken like tau.

Read the thread next time...

The funny thing is if they dropped the 3.5 ed chaos book into current 40k it still wouldn't be as bad as elderp or tau, guard may have an issue and marines would be fine.

Op for the time but hardly a splash next to superheavies, 2++, riptides, jetseer, wave serpent spam etc.

Oh and I want the helldrake to be a fmc that cannot land or a av11/11/11, that thing a slight tone down

 Hedgehog wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
I think the word I would use to describe my thoughts after reading most of this thread is: baffled.

So you're telling me that chaos space marines have no identity, specialization, or anything that makes playing them different between armies?

Have you people ever looked at the Imperial Guard? An army that is totally different depending on the regiment you play as fluff wise, yet has ZERO differences between actual gameplay armies. With codex chaos marines, you at least get different marks to use. You guys are all complaining marks don't satisfy your desires to play differently and create an identity, but yet are ignoring the fact that almost on other codex allows players to differentiate between their average units.

I could create a thread about how good chaos has it compared to guard, what with their different marks, icons, cult troops, relics, war gear options, etc. What do guard get?

Go ahead I'll wait.

Since you won't be able to come up with anything I'll continue; this isn't about guard I know. But it's important to bring it up because GW gives chaos many more opportunities than most other factions. There is only so much rules writing can do. It's up to players to find identities for their own armies and fight that way.

I play chaos almost as much as my guard. With chaos, I get to use Berzerkers, juggernaught lords, and units I can be generally assaults with. With my Mordians I get to... Uhm... Hmm.

I think the difference here is that most Chaos players don't see Chaos Space Marines as a single codex. There really should be seven:

- Thousand Sons
- World Eaters
- Death Guard
- Emperor's children
- Undivided Legions (perhaps with the equivalent of Chapter Tactics for Black Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion)
- Post-Heresy renegades
- Lost and the Damned (cultists and similar)

This about it this way - Space Marines are represented by no less than four individual codices, each of which plays in a different way. Chaos has one single codex, trying to represent seven hugely different armies, with far greater differences between them than there between any of the SM codices.

Add in the fact that CSM players are not playing purely to win - only the 3.5 codex ever allowed us to do that reliably. Instead, most CSM players are in it because they are really attracted to the background, feel and playstyle of their particular faction. So it's no wonder that most are disappointed that they can't adequately represent that faction... especially when they used to be able to do so with the 3.5 codex and Index Astartes articles!

Even though that's 100% true, it's impractical to execute. I think it's reasonable to simply ask for a single codex that simply provides at least SOME units that are unique to certain types of legions. How about a plastic Plague Marines box with new options like plague spewers? Or Thousand Sons mutant serfs? Maybe a daemon engine just for the Emperor's Children? Or a Lord of Skulls for the world eaters I forgot about the Lord of Skulls. Alright, credit where credit is due, Games Workshop. I know it was just you being lazy and falling back on a pre-existing unit, but that was a good choice to make regardless. World Eaters is actually something representable, I think. All they need is an actual Berserker lord on a juggernaut...

Swastakowey wrote:

You must have glanced over my post saying the same thing.

But remember just because one has it worse doesnt mean both shouldn't be fixed. But I think Imperial Guard have the worst end of the straw certainly.

No, I read yours but I was trying to finish my post quickly to go mow my lawn as there was a storm brewing. I was going to cite that you had already said the same thing essentially, but ran out of time and I apologize for that. My reply to you would be, if one has it worse than another then shouldn't the worse be fixed before the better?

Hedgehog wrote:
I think the difference here is that most Chaos players don't see Chaos Space Marines as a single codex. There really should be seven:

- Thousand Sons
- World Eaters
- Death Guard
- Emperor's children
- Undivided Legions (perhaps with the equivalent of Chapter Tactics for Black Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion)
- Post-Heresy renegades
- Lost and the Damned (cultists and similar)

This about it this way - Space Marines are represented by no less than four individual codices, each of which plays in a different way. Chaos has one single codex, trying to represent seven hugely different armies, with far greater differences between them than there between any of the SM codices.

Add in the fact that CSM players are not playing purely to win - only the 3.5 codex ever allowed us to do that reliably. Instead, most CSM players are in it because they are really attracted to the background, feel and playstyle of their particular faction. So it's no wonder that most are disappointed that they can't adequately represent that faction... especially when they used to be able to do so with the 3.5 codex and Index Astartes articles!

I agree with you about the chaos being "more deserving" for independent codices, but one is the flagship icon of the game and the other is "the bad guys" so I dont think we will ever see anything like different codexes for marines. Again, not saying there shouldn't be, but I'm just trying to be realistic.

Do you mean the players who pick up armies because they are the best during an edition, such as Eldar now, gray knights in 5th or tau at the end of 6th? Then yes in suppose your point is valid. There aren't very many people who picked up chaos marines with their new codex because they were the best.

Edit: iPad autocorrect issues

Also, as I'm writing this there is only 23 minutes until game time- go USA!

I just want marks to give us Fearless again...

... and for Tzeentch marks to make sorcerers not peril. Like it used to be.

Kyutaru wrote:
I just want marks to give us Fearless again...

... and for Tzeentch marks to make sorcerers not peril. Like it used to be.

If perils can happen to Greater Daemons now, then they can certainly happen to a sorcerer.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 necronspurs2012 wrote:
The chaos marins dex is good just coz the helldrake is not uber op anymore it is still a good unit. As are obliterators. My arguement wasnt against god specific parts as id love that for tzeentch. But my arguement was against the way you put it, about how they are completely generic. Rules you can make them how you want, bitz there are some decent god bitz and the capability to convert. And Daemons are not like a generic army they have four different sides to the codex and models represemt their gods (coming from someone who has played them since mid 5th. Im a cron player and are dex is reaply not good. We only have two certain builds that work. Heavy scythe or heavy wraiths. So sstop moaning there are worse off codexs. We cant all be broken like tau.

Read the thread next time...

Ive read it. This was a reply to another comment. Get your facts straight

 necronspurs2012 wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 necronspurs2012 wrote:
The chaos marins dex is good just coz the helldrake is not uber op anymore it is still a good unit. As are obliterators. My arguement wasnt against god specific parts as id love that for tzeentch. But my arguement was against the way you put it, about how they are completely generic. Rules you can make them how you want, bitz there are some decent god bitz and the capability to convert. And Daemons are not like a generic army they have four different sides to the codex and models represemt their gods (coming from someone who has played them since mid 5th. Im a cron player and are dex is reaply not good. We only have two certain builds that work. Heavy scythe or heavy wraiths. So sstop moaning there are worse off codexs. We cant all be broken like tau.

Read the thread next time...

Ive read it. This was a reply to another comment. Get your facts straight

Your reply, no matter which comment it was directed at, suggests otherwise. But I admit I don't think Chaos Daemons are generic.

Opening the chaos dex and looking at it my options if I want to make legion specific armies are:

Emperor's Children
As has been stated there are no sonic weapons for dreads or vehicles. I get noise marines and marks on things. It's certainly doable but could be lot better.

Iron Warriors
Well now with unbound and all that we can get Basalisks back but I'm not sure if that should count since it's not in the marine codex. Looking in there we have the warpsmith which is cool, and the oblitorators. I'd never run it because of balance issues (which is sad because I want to) but the list is there.

Night Lords
There is really nothing Night Lord specific here. All we can really do is throw down a lot of Warp Talons and Raptors but spamming the two cliche units does not make an army. No HQ to go with them, no way to make basic marines feel 'night lordy' in any way. Just the exact same jump pack heavy list anyone else can take.

World Eaters
Bezerkers and a wargear item or two. Basic marines and chosen can be build for cc which is fine, MoK is fine, but termis or bikes are still sorely missing. Again, doable but not ideal.

Death Guard.
Plauge marines and, again, not much else. The difference here is a little more pronounced since you could argue that basic marines with MoK are good enough for a WE army, but chosen and termies without blight grenades or Feel No Pain starts to really stand out.

Thousand Sons
Ruberic marines and nothing else. Everything in that army fluffwise should be a sorcerer or dust in a suit of armour. That can not be done here unless you're running an army of nothing but Ruberics and sorcerer HQs.

Black Legion
Well yeah, you can do this one pretty well. That's kinda the complaint, that 'Codex Chaos Marines' has become 'Codex Black Legion' and then Black Legion got given a damn supplement where the other legions desperately need one.

Word Bearers
Well, you can summon daemons now. Other than that and the Dark Apostle HQ what can you really do there that doesn't just feel like basic marines with a lot less toys and a few different ones? Like the IW most of the cool extra fluffy stuff comes from adding allies on top with little in the way of actual Word Bearers other than some plain troops and possessed?

Alpha Legion
The most fluffy way to do this army forces you to take Huron Blackheart to infiltrate some troops. That tells you all you really need to know. No infiltrate anymore. Finally got cultists back only for them to be armed with only the 3 odd weapons that come in the snap fit kit. You are bound by that bloody challenge thing and the gift table even though it goes entirely against the fluff. All in all you are still much better off running them with codex space marines.



So of the 9 traitor legions I can run like 5. Or run all of 2, maybe 3, well?
I wouldn't ever call that a good dex for building fluffy armies.

I like that the rant is centred upon the four traitor legions that have their own specific unit and character in the codex are seen as the ones that have been hard done by whereas iron warriors, night lords, alpha legion and word bearers have no way of differentiating themselves at all

Yeah, I'd be satisfied with at least some kind of "Chapter Tactics", for Chaos Space Marines, but nooooooooo

Kyutaru wrote:
GW is what doesn't care. We care. I haven't purchased models in years. Everyone dies sooner or later. In Jervis's case, we can pray for it to be sooner.

This.

Don't support their half-assed attempts. Spend money when they do your codex justice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Obviously you still love CSM need your models, snag them up off eBay and Dakka Swap Shop. Your doing everyone a favour, saving yourself money, helping some guy get rid of unwanted models (that he's obviously not going to replace from the GW store at double the price), and your helping the entire community out by not supporting GW in their decision to write lazy rules just because they know it can sell anyway, instead of paying someone to do it properly.

Emperor's Children
As has been stated there are no sonic weapons for dreads or vehicles. I get noise marines and marks on things. It's certainly doable but could be lot better.

I have shown you why Emperor's Children is a horrible representation a page ago, it's not just "SONICS"

 jonolikespie wrote:
Opening the chaos dex and looking at it my options if I want to make legion specific armies are:

Spoiler:

Emperor's Children
As has been stated there are no sonic weapons for dreads or vehicles. I get noise marines and marks on things. It's certainly doable but could be lot better.

Iron Warriors
Well now with unbound and all that we can get Basalisks back but I'm not sure if that should count since it's not in the marine codex. Looking in there we have the warpsmith which is cool, and the oblitorators. I'd never run it because of balance issues (which is sad because I want to) but the list is there.

Night Lords
There is really nothing Night Lord specific here. All we can really do is throw down a lot of Warp Talons and Raptors but spamming the two cliche units does not make an army. No HQ to go with them, no way to make basic marines feel 'night lordy' in any way. Just the exact same jump pack heavy list anyone else can take.

World Eaters
Bezerkers and a wargear item or two. Basic marines and chosen can be build for cc which is fine, MoK is fine, but termis or bikes are still sorely missing. Again, doable but not ideal.

Death Guard.
Plauge marines and, again, not much else. The difference here is a little more pronounced since you could argue that basic marines with MoK are good enough for a WE army, but chosen and termies without blight grenades or Feel No Pain starts to really stand out.

Thousand Sons
Ruberic marines and nothing else. Everything in that army fluffwise should be a sorcerer or dust in a suit of armour. That can not be done here unless you're running an army of nothing but Ruberics and sorcerer HQs.

Black Legion
Well yeah, you can do this one pretty well. That's kinda the complaint, that 'Codex Chaos Marines' has become 'Codex Black Legion' and then Black Legion got given a damn supplement where the other legions desperately need one.

Word Bearers
Well, you can summon daemons now. Other than that and the Dark Apostle HQ what can you really do there that doesn't just feel like basic marines with a lot less toys and a few different ones? Like the IW most of the cool extra fluffy stuff comes from adding allies on top with little in the way of actual Word Bearers other than some plain troops and possessed?

Alpha Legion
The most fluffy way to do this army forces you to take Huron Blackheart to infiltrate some troops. That tells you all you really need to know. No infiltrate anymore. Finally got cultists back only for them to be armed with only the 3 odd weapons that come in the snap fit kit. You are bound by that bloody challenge thing and the gift table even though it goes entirely against the fluff. All in all you are still much better off running them with codex space marines.

So of the 9 traitor legions I can run like 5. Or run all of 2, maybe 3, well?
I wouldn't ever call that a good dex for building fluffy armies.

Quoted for truth. If you want to make something fluffy, you are forced to add demons and reduce your actual power armoured component as much as possible, ideally leaving only cult troops or posessed.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah. I mean, tell me what fluffy list you used to be able to build, that you can't build anymore.

A chaos warband with a champion as leader and his associated mutated followers. I mean you can make one but it lacks all the individuality that it had in 1st edition. It also requires a lot less d100 tables though too

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Emperor's Children
As has been stated there are no sonic weapons for dreads or vehicles. I get noise marines and marks on things. It's certainly doable but could be lot better.

I have shown you why Emperor's Children is a horrible representation a page ago, it's not just "SONICS"

Good point. I did skim over them a but.

 Formosa wrote:
The funny thing is if they dropped the 3.5 ed chaos book into current 40k it still wouldn't be as bad as elderp or tau, guard may have an issue and marines would be fine.

Op for the time but hardly a splash next to superheavies, 2++, riptides, jetseer, wave serpent spam etc.

Oh and I want the helldrake to be a fmc that cannot land or a av11/11/11, that thing a slight tone down

Has anyone actually done this? Played the 3.5 'dex in a 5th or 6th Ed game? Because I think that might actually be viable for CSM fluff monsters. We'd get exactly what we want (fluffy armies) and our opponents would'nt have to face Helldrakes.

 Hedgehog wrote:

I think the difference here is that most Chaos players don't see Chaos Space Marines as a single codex. There really should be seven:

- Thousand Sons
- World Eaters
- Death Guard
- Emperor's children
- Undivided Legions (perhaps with the equivalent of Chapter Tactics for Black Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion)
- Post-Heresy renegades
- Lost and the Damned (cultists and similar)

Too many, just like SM

1 dex for the 4 cults, they don't need a whole codex each
1 dex for the 5 undivided legions, same reason as above
1 dex for LATD

On the allies chart they would be bunched together under "Followers of Chaos" or similar (as Imperium is in 7th)

As a Black Legion player I strongly disagree with C:CSM being 'Black Legion'. We get a character, that's it. It's as much Black Legion as it is Red Corsairs. Then our supplement talks about how we've allowed many to join since the heresy, but the rules make it clear, no veteran = no black.

Would it be a good idea to break chaos into 4 books? Codex: Lost and the Damned, Codex: Renegades, Codex: Chaos Legions and Codex: Chaos Daemons. Have all them be battle brothers with each other and let each book focus on a certain aspect of chaos. For example the Legion book would have traits, gear and relics for each of the legions but lack in having loyalist gear. While Codex: Renegades could be a mix of chaos and loyalist.

 Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:
Would it be a good idea to break chaos into 4 books? Codex: Lost and the Damned, Codex: Renegades, Codex: Chaos Legions and Codex: Chaos Daemons. Have all them be battle brothers with each other and let each book focus on a certain aspect of chaos. For example the Legion book would have traits, gear and relics for each of the legions but lack in having loyalist gear. While Codex: Renegades could be a mix of chaos and loyalist.

Definitely agree there should a LATD codex but I disagree on needing two Chaos Space Marines books. Renegades can be done with the current book and SM allies if you want a newly fallen warband. Legions don't need a separate book, they just need tweaking of the rules to make them feel unique from each other. And no more random possessed.

Firstly, bring back the old veteran abilities and daemonic mutations so we can upgrade our squads and champions to feel more individual.
Secondly something like this for Legion upgrades for units.

Upgrades would be costed based on how good the buffs are that they give.

Thousand Sons: All is dust, a unit with this upgrade follows the rules for Rubric Marines, except the champion who is upgraded to a sorcerer for X amount of points, grants the unit fearless. May not be applied to fast attack units, or Possessed.

Emperor's Children: All units gain access to sonic weaponry, become fearless, plus one initiative and rending (to represent their sublime swordsmanship)

Death Guard: All units with this mark gain feel no pain, blight grenades and fearless but also become bulky so take up 2 slots in a transport (to represent the bloated size and also reflect the DG fluff that they use fewer Rhinos). May not be applied to Raptors or Warp Talons.

World Eaters: All units with the upgrade get Rage +1 attack, Fearless and may pay for a chain axe. Cannot be given to Havocs.

My non-mono god marks are a little more difficult for me to think of so just remember these are just ideas.

Word Bearers: Something like +1 to summoning attempts, fearless, possessed as troops if Lord has this mark.

Iron Warriors: fearless, +1 to cover saves (or minus 1 to enemy cover saves that the unit is targeting) to represent seige warfare.

Nightlords: Stealth, Hit and Run, all units with this mark may voluntarily fall back at the end of an assault phase and immediately regroup in their own turn. (Notice, no fearless because they are supposed to be all about preying on the weak, not honourable fights) Nightlords Champions do not have to make or accept challenges.

Alpha Legion: Only mark that can be given to cultists as well as Astartes units. Gives infiltrate, deep striking units do not scatter if within 6 of a unit with the upgrade. Cultists with this mark may take melta bombs to make them a more guerilla type unit. If the Unit Champion or Independant character loses his last wound roll a dice, on a 6 another marine in the squad dies instead (he was in disguise all along)

Now these are obviously not perfect, but it's just a little idea that proves with less than a page of rules for special marks, you can create the feel of the legions without slapping on restrictive lists or needing a separate codex. With the mark system you could mix and match legions as you wished, or go pure if you wanted to. I think this would add a lot of the flavour we have been craving, without needing new models or units.

 Ignatius wrote:
I think the word I would use to describe my thoughts after reading most of this thread is: baffled.

So you're telling me that chaos space marines have no identity, specialization, or anything that makes playing them different between armies?

Have you people ever looked at the Imperial Guard? An army that is totally different depending on the regiment you play as fluff wise, yet has ZERO differences between actual gameplay armies. With codex chaos marines, you at least get different marks to use. You guys are all complaining marks don't satisfy your desires to play differently and create an identity, but yet are ignoring the fact that almost on other codex allows players to differentiate between their average units.

As both an IG and a CSM player, the basic IG book has a tons of inbuilt variation to make much more mechanically different armies than the CSM book. And if you include Forgeworld stuff for IG, they can get monstrously varied indeed.

Or we can just have a single codex. We had a single codex in 3.5 edition that included the legions, the gods, the daemons, and it was still only half the size of the current one. With more customization and abilities too.

Kyutaru wrote:
Or we can just have a single codex. We had a single codex in 3.5 edition that included the legions, the gods, the daemons, and it was still only half the size of the current one. With more customization and abilities too.

This. Every CSM player has been hoping for each subsequent CSM codex since 3.5 to live up to it - and has been disappointed every time.

GW doesn't really want to do the type of codex most CSM players want. The problem is they want C:CSM to be like the Vanilla Marine codex, where the player finds their own distinctive flavor. Chaos marines have suffered modelwise and ruleswise from a certain laziness on GWs part. CSM could work the way GW wants it, but first they'd need more units to choose from and marks should be expanded and tailored to units more. The example, why can't a mark of slaanesh convey a sonic weapon?-GW just doesn't want to represent all those rich variations.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
I think the word I would use to describe my thoughts after reading most of this thread is: baffled.

So you're telling me that chaos space marines have no identity, specialization, or anything that makes playing them different between armies?

Have you people ever looked at the Imperial Guard? An army that is totally different depending on the regiment you play as fluff wise, yet has ZERO differences between actual gameplay armies. With codex chaos marines, you at least get different marks to use. You guys are all complaining marks don't satisfy your desires to play differently and create an identity, but yet are ignoring the fact that almost on other codex allows players to differentiate between their average units.

As both an IG and a CSM player, the basic IG book has a tons of inbuilt variation to make much more mechanically different armies than the CSM book. And if you include Forgeworld stuff for IG, they can get monstrously varied indeed.

I play both too and I'll have to disagree with you on this one. I feel I have a lot more variation with my chaos army than I do with my guard. Coupled with the fact that with chaos, your regular marines have a couple different options to make them at least somewhat different from another armies. Guardsmen from army A are guardsmen from army B are guardsmen from army Z. Chaos marines on the other hand have at least some things that allow for variation. Whether they are necessarily all that game changing or not, they are at least still there.

 Ignatius wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
I think the word I would use to describe my thoughts after reading most of this thread is: baffled.

So you're telling me that chaos space marines have no identity, specialization, or anything that makes playing them different between armies?

Have you people ever looked at the Imperial Guard? An army that is totally different depending on the regiment you play as fluff wise, yet has ZERO differences between actual gameplay armies. With codex chaos marines, you at least get different marks to use. You guys are all complaining marks don't satisfy your desires to play differently and create an identity, but yet are ignoring the fact that almost on other codex allows players to differentiate between their average units.

As both an IG and a CSM player, the basic IG book has a tons of inbuilt variation to make much more mechanically different armies than the CSM book. And if you include Forgeworld stuff for IG, they can get monstrously varied indeed.

I play both too and I'll have to disagree with you on this one. I feel I have a lot more variation with my chaos army than I do with my guard. Coupled with the fact that with chaos, your regular marines have a couple different options to make them at least somewhat different from another armies. Guardsmen from army A are guardsmen from army B are guardsmen from army Z. Chaos marines on the other hand have at least some things that allow for variation. Whether they are necessarily all that game changing or not, they are at least still there.

I play both and I'll have to disagree. Then again it's because most of them end up being meaningless. A 6+ invuln really doesn't make them different troops, a +1I really only matters in CC. Stuff like that ruins really any sense of picking them. Picking an icon that gives fear is that same illusion of choice. IG can field veterans both mechanized, air forced, and footslogging (chimera, taurox, and valkyrie). Then you have the platoon command squad, heavy weapon squads, standard troop units that can be as small as 10 or massive, conscripts, and special weapon units. I really think that IG wins out for diversity in regards to troops in the end. Really, the IG force makes me feel like I'm playing different armies. I feel a distinctive different style when I play them.

That, however, does not mean that I think IG properly represents IG. No, I actually do not believe this is so. IG and CSM, in my personal opinion, suffer the most from trying to represent too much with too little. It's a problem with many codices in general but I feel it most in these two armies which really do represent some of the widest forces out there, the most numerous, the most varied. It doesn't help that IG lost several options when their new codex came out. I was saddened to see regiment characters taken out that really could spice things up and especially sad to see the tallarn commander removed who did bring in a distinctive playstyle. That said, the IG feels more varied and is coupled with Forgeworld blessing IG with the most variation along with SM in a way that Chaos doesn't even touch. That and CSM is an utter mess with vague hints of Lost and the Damned, Renegades, Legions both undivided, not really god at all, and cult legions all mixed up in some mess with bad ideas tossed upon it all.