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It's clear that Forgeworld saw this problem as well. If you've ever looked at their Chaos section you'll see a dreadnaught, rhino, and land raider conversion for every traitor legion. Not to mention some nice Khorne units, too. But I feel like even here there's not the same amount of enthusiasm is there is with most other armies. For example, how old is all that I just mentioned? 4 years old? At least? They've stopped for some reason, and if I had to guess I'd say it's 30k. Apparently they're done for 40k now.

 Ignatius wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
I think the word I would use to describe my thoughts after reading most of this thread is: baffled.

So you're telling me that chaos space marines have no identity, specialization, or anything that makes playing them different between armies?

Have you people ever looked at the Imperial Guard? An army that is totally different depending on the regiment you play as fluff wise, yet has ZERO differences between actual gameplay armies. With codex chaos marines, you at least get different marks to use. You guys are all complaining marks don't satisfy your desires to play differently and create an identity, but yet are ignoring the fact that almost on other codex allows players to differentiate between their average units.

As both an IG and a CSM player, the basic IG book has a tons of inbuilt variation to make much more mechanically different armies than the CSM book. And if you include Forgeworld stuff for IG, they can get monstrously varied indeed.

I play both too and I'll have to disagree with you on this one. I feel I have a lot more variation with my chaos army than I do with my guard. Coupled with the fact that with chaos, your regular marines have a couple different options to make them at least somewhat different from another armies. Guardsmen from army A are guardsmen from army B are guardsmen from army Z. Chaos marines on the other hand have at least some things that allow for variation. Whether they are necessarily all that game changing or not, they are at least still there.

Guard armies play much more radically different however depending on how you build them. A Mechanized Vet IG army is a completely different army than a a blob-horde army, which is yet distinct from a mechanized platoon army, which in turn is quite distinct in playstyle from a Scions list, with accompanying vastly different typical support options. With CSM's, your support options are much more limited, viable support options even moreso, and aside from Berzerkers, most CSM troops will play *roughly* similarly, just to different degrees of effectiveness with mechanization or whatnot making little difference.

 Quarterdime wrote:
It's clear that Forgeworld saw this problem as well. If you've ever looked at their Chaos section you'll see a dreadnaught, rhino, and land raider conversion for every traitor legion. Not to mention some nice Khorne units, too. But I feel like even here there's not the same amount of enthusiasm is there is with most other armies. For example, how old is all that I just mentioned? 4 years old? At least? They've stopped for some reason, and if I had to guess I'd say it's 30k. Apparently they're done for 40k now.

yep they do vehicle doors ( which i have everywhere, they are niiiice) and i have 2 of the thousand sons dreads. the only problem i see with all of these is that models no matter how nice dont help with the rules, a thousand sons dread doesnt get ap3 HB. same as they still sell a dread with sonic weapons, but you cant use is in game due to no rules for it :(

GW's always taken the position of the non-imperial codices being written from an imperial perspective. This lazy incoherent indistinct blob is how the imperium sees chaos.

C:CSM doesn't represent much and in my opinion that would have been ok if they used supplements to expand on these other flavors of Chaos instead of just giving us more of the same. For example the codex is ill suited for representing recently renegade Chaos marines, however a supplement is the perfect form for bridging the gap between C:SM and C:CSM. A supplement could have expanded the rules to give more god specific variants to feed the mono god lists. If GW had cohesive and thought out vision the current codex could been better focused, with renegades and mono-god represented elsewhere it gives the codex that much more room to expand on the other flavors of chaos.

FW's next IA book is suppose to be chaos... So we might get actual rules for their different older chaos model in addition to some of the HH stuff.

 aka_mythos wrote:
GW's always taken the position of the non-imperial codices being written from an imperial perspective. This lazy incoherent indistinct blob is how the imperium sees chaos.

C:CSM doesn't represent much and in my opinion that would have been ok if they used supplements to expand on these other flavors of Chaos instead of just giving us more of the same. For example the codex is ill suited for representing recently renegade Chaos marines, however a supplement is the perfect form for bridging the gap between C:SM and C:CSM. A supplement could have expanded the rules to give more god specific variants to feed the mono god lists. If GW had cohesive and thought out vision the current codex could been better focused, with renegades and mono-god represented elsewhere it gives the codex that much more room to expand on the other flavors of chaos.

FW's next IA book is suppose to be chaos... So we might get actual rules for their different older chaos model in addition to some of the HH stuff.

I'm really curious about this upcoming IA and how it'll be oriented. Probably focused on the CSM side though. Does anybody know how the other main chaos FW book focuses? I assume it has some Imperial bits in it?

Basically, CSM needs Forgeworld Horus Heresy Legion rules 'updated' to 40k to represent the character of the individual legions, alongside Rites of War.

I think (30k people can confirm or deny) that people playing 30k Alpha Legion feel like they're able to run a list that 'feels' like Alpha Legion should, and gives them some actual benefits for it. If you do the Coils of the Hydra rite, you get to pick a unit that would only be something someone else could run, but it turns out they're Alpha Legion infiltrators instead. Death Guard, Salamanders, and Word Bearers get better morale/fear immunity for their traditional stubborn natures. Emperor's Children characters get sonic shriekers. Death Guard gets chem munitions for any unit, not just their unique ones.

There are a bunch of other examples from 30k, so it's clear that some part of GW wants this, because they put it in the Horus Heresy books. It's just that somehow those efforts don't extend to 40k CSM, so we instead get the 4th edition Codex: Red Corsairs, updated with the option to be 6th edition Codex: Black Legion (Vets of the Long War totally represents all Chaos Legions, man).

Even the plastic Chaos Space Marines box only has ten to a dozen heads included that are each extremely distinct and identifiable as duplicates. Also, some legions, like maybe Night Lords or the Alpha Legion, don't look that becoming wearing massive horned helmets. At least the Night Lords have their own conversion kit. ...Hey wait a minute... So do the Iron Warriors... Add the forgeworld kits, and... huh. Looks like Games Workshop has actually covered their ass on this after all. So it's actually possible to field the infantry of any army you want. You just have to be willing to shell out around $50 for ten models, and then play them with house rules. Thanks Games Workshop! For keeping our Battered Housewife Syndrome alive and well!


....Except for the Emperor's Children. Noise Marines =/= Emperor's Children

Chaos marine armies can be different too depending on how you build them... Just as all armies can be. My point was about chaos marines being one of the few codexes that at least gives you the option to make your regular units different.

Again, not saying chaos marine marks and icons are necessarily that great at representing differences, but at least it is there. A luxury that isn't shared by many armies.

Sure the newest codex is lacking a bit compared to the 3.5 codex, but this "homogenization" is happening all across the game. GW is moving from having rules that make armies different, to just allowing the players to make choices about how their armies are different from others. This comes during unit selection, but more importantly by how the units are used on the battlefield. But in this regard, chaos has weathered a bit better than some other armies out there (bar Space Marines with their chapter tactics).

If an Eldar players wants to represent a certain craft world what do they do? They take units associated with the craft world (wraith units, or guardians, or Farseers, or jet bikes, etc). If an imperial guard player wants to represent a regiment, what do they do? They (sadly, as I miss doctrines) take blobs, or a lot of chimeras, or leman russes, or valks, etc. If a Dark Eldar player wants to play a different army, they take witches, or wrecks, or warriors, etc. It goes on.

So what should a chaos marine player do? Take units associated with the legion, or chapter, or army they want to represent. And while I think there is obviously room where they can give a few more options, they achieve this better than most other armies.

I'm starting to question whether this is about diversity and more about the diversity not being competitive enough for some.

 Ignatius wrote:
Chaos marine armies can be different too depending on how you build them... Just as all armies can be. My point was about chaos marines being one of the few codexes that at least gives you the option to make your regular units different.

Again, not saying chaos marine marks and icons are necessarily that great at representing differences, but at least it is there. A luxury that isn't shared by many armies.

Sure the newest codex is lacking a bit compared to the 3.5 codex, but this "homogenization" is happening all across the game. GW is moving from having rules that make armies different, to just allowing the players to make choices about how their armies are different from others. This comes during unit selection, but more importantly by how the units are used on the battlefield. But in this regard, chaos has weathered a bit better than some other armies out there (bar Space Marines with their chapter tactics).

If an Eldar players wants to represent a certain craft world what do they do? They take units associated with the craft world (wraith units, or guardians, or Farseers, or jet bikes, etc). If an imperial guard player wants to represent a regiment, what do they do? They (sadly, as I miss doctrines) take blobs, or a lot of chimeras, or leman russes, or valks, etc. If a Dark Eldar player wants to play a different army, they take witches, or wrecks, or warriors, etc. It goes on.

So what should a chaos marine player do? Take units associated with the legion, or chapter, or army they want to represent. And while I think there is obviously room where they can give a few more options, they achieve this better than most other armies.

I'm starting to question whether this is about diversity and more about the diversity not being competitive enough for some.

Unless you are Space Marines of course

Frankly my problem comes down to not being able to field a Thousand Son army. I can't pretend like marked terminators are Thousand Sons because they are not. A marked sorcerer is not a Thousand Son either. The only way to fit into the fluff is to grab Ahriman and Ksons with maybe the flair of a few vehicles (although it is important to note that historically KSons were very booted to floor magic fun times with support from hordes of spire guard replaced by cultists and some automiton machines). I can't grab terminators and just say they are because they don't function slightly like other KSons. Heck, GK work better for KSons than their own codex. That and I can't even opt for a Tzeentch force because there is basically no good time to pick the mark of Tzeentch

How can you not field a Thousand Sons army? What is missing from the codex that used to be there to make your army?

What do you mean by "no good time to pick the mark of tzeentch?" You mean competitive wise? Because that would seem to validate my final line..

 Ignatius wrote:
Chaos marine armies can be different too depending on how you build them... Just as all armies can be. My point was about chaos marines being one of the few codexes that at least gives you the option to make your regular units different.

Again, not saying chaos marine marks and icons are necessarily that great at representing differences, but at least it is there. A luxury that isn't shared by many armies.

Sure the newest codex is lacking a bit compared to the 3.5 codex, but this "homogenization" is happening all across the game. GW is moving from having rules that make armies different, to just allowing the players to make choices about how their armies are different from others. This comes during unit selection, but more importantly by how the units are used on the battlefield. But in this regard, chaos has weathered a bit better than some other armies out there (bar Space Marines with their chapter tactics).

If an Eldar players wants to represent a certain craft world what do they do? They take units associated with the craft world (wraith units, or guardians, or Farseers, or jet bikes, etc). If an imperial guard player wants to represent a regiment, what do they do? They (sadly, as I miss doctrines) take blobs, or a lot of chimeras, or leman russes, or valks, etc. If a Dark Eldar player wants to play a different army, they take witches, or wrecks, or warriors, etc. It goes on.

So what should a chaos marine player do? Take units associated with the legion, or chapter, or army they want to represent. And while I think there is obviously room where they can give a few more options, they achieve this better than most other armies.

I'm starting to question whether this is about diversity and more about the diversity not being competitive enough for some.

You're dead wrong. If you want to play Emperor's Children, you can't paint your Chaos Space Marines pink and black and make some of them noise marines. Nor can you give them any sonic warmachines. The same applies to Thousand Sons. You can't give them Rubric Terminators or Mutant Serfs. Hell, even any Sorcerer HQ choice you could give them will have multiple stars of chaos on him for you to ignore! Chaos isn't about sharing. It's about diversity. More than any other faction. Try to imagine each craft world made up of units that are mostly unique to them. Imagine what it would be like if Jetbikes were a unit exclusive to the Saim-Hann craftworld. Now imagine that Jetbikes don't have any models, rules, or representation in the codex itself. That is where we are with Chaos Space Marines.

 Ignatius wrote:
How can you not field a Thousand Sons army? What is missing from the codex that used to be there to make your army?

What do you mean by "no good time to pick the mark of tzeentch?" You mean competitive wise? Because that would seem to validate my final line..

There's only two things that fit a fluffy KSon army in the codex. Thousand Sons and Ahriman. Nothing else is a Kson in the book. A marked terminator is simply a Tzeentchian dedicated renegade CSM that is more recent and has come to support KSons. The last time KSons even worked somewhat well was in 3.5 where the rules were for all models. Even then there were a really bad army but I've stuck by them out of a love for them. Heck, I've gotten to the point I play GK for KSons more often than not simply because it feels more Thousand Sonish. Thing is, Thousand Sons are an odd creature entirely. What are they? The two big things are automitons and Sorcerers. Every unit has a sorcerer leading them as the only living individuals with their psyker powers dramatically enhanced by the rubricate. The rest are suits of dust that are walking ghosts of the past. They are hard to kill as their bodies are simply suits of armour. Alone, they are nothing but near war they come to life (as well as around sorcerers) and even more so if combined with a sorcerer. Their terminators are the same, their HQs are filled with only sorcerers. There'd need to be Chaos Lords with psyker rules likely minimum 2 and max 3 ML. They'd use machines for war that are individually piloted and would have mutant guard forces as well as other outlandish forces. They would wield tomes of archaic spells that are bewilderng to many controlling the warp with frightening might perhaps even having daemonic familiars that assist in fighting.

As per the latter, there's no real point to diversity if options are basically worthless. It's more it doesn't feel fluffy at all. The 6+ invuln is not only costly but meaningless only slightly okay on units that already have invulns. Yet it doesn't feel Tzeentchian by any means. The icon is simply soulblaze which is worthless. The sorcerers? It actually hurts them by forcing them to roll on the worst psyker table in the game. Simply put, is there some extent of competitive gripes? Yes. Codices that have terrible internal balance do cause problems that way. An army like Eldar are, although imperfect, more capable of theming their armies simply because everything works better. There's not nearly as many *click here to waste points* options. Keep in mind Ksons and Ahriman are actually terrible units with KSons being some of the worst units in the entire game so it's not entirely competitive either. SM do it best with rules that sweet over everything. I just wish it weren't hundreds of points wasted for things that only hurt me to select. That and it also doesn't really create variety for undivided forces. The marks are for the gods but there's really only vet of the long war or being nothing at all. And everybody can pick the vet of the long war.

Perhaps most damning is the fact that some no-name warband is what got the second supplement as well. Granted the supplements really don't mix things up very much.

Huh? There are rules for sonic weapons... So not sure what you're getting on about with regards to emperors children not being pink and black marines with sonic weapons.

Okay so no sonic war machines. Guess you're just going to have to use any of the other war machines at your disposal. To my knowledge there never was a sonic weapon predator for example, so not sure how that's been taken from you.

You cant have Mutant surfs? What? Chaos cultists don't work here? What would make you satisfied? And did you have it before?

Rubric terminators? How are they any different than regular terminators?

Sorcerers don't use chaos powers or have stars on them? Why? And since when? And if they bother you that much, why not take an extra ten minutes and shave them off? Or make your own sorcerer? You're getting no pity from me here.

Not sure what I said about sharing vs diversity but okay.

Here's the thing: jet bikes have models, rules, and representation in the codex, as does chaos and they different possible legions and renegades

Answer me this: what did you used to have that you don't anymore that you wish you did, and you can cite as proof for this homogenization?

 StarTrotter wrote:


Perhaps most damning is the fact that some no-name warband is what got the second supplement as well. Granted the supplements really don't mix things up very much.

You need to understand something. Supplements exist to promote new releases and boost any subfaction that can find representation in the model line

Ok. I was saying that on behalf of the four. Red Corsairs would have been perfect.

I think it's more like "Why can Spezz Mehreines get customization amongst its factions and CSMs cannot?"

So ya know, custom rules for Night Lords, Word Bearers, Black Legion (well, already done in codex supplement form).

 Quarterdime wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:


Perhaps most damning is the fact that some no-name warband is what got the second supplement as well. Granted the supplements really don't mix things up very much.

You need to understand something. Supplements exist to promote new releases and boost any subfaction that can find representation in the model line

Ok. I was saying that on behalf of the four. Red Corsairs would have been perfect.

Oh I know that. But I can dream can't I?

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
How can you not field a Thousand Sons army? What is missing from the codex that used to be there to make your army?

What do you mean by "no good time to pick the mark of tzeentch?" You mean competitive wise? Because that would seem to validate my final line..

There's only two things that fit a fluffy KSon army in the codex. Thousand Sons and Ahriman. Nothing else is a Kson in the book. A marked terminator is simply a Tzeentchian dedicated renegade CSM that is more recent and has come to support KSons. The last time KSons even worked somewhat well was in 3.5 where the rules were for all models. Even then there were a really bad army but I've stuck by them out of a love for them. Heck, I've gotten to the point I play GK for KSons more often than not simply because it feels more Thousand Sonish. Thing is, Thousand Sons are an odd creature entirely. What are they? The two big things are automitons and Sorcerers. Every unit has a sorcerer leading them as the only living individuals with their psyker powers dramatically enhanced by the rubricate. The rest are suits of dust that are walking ghosts of the past. They are hard to kill as their bodies are simply suits of armour. Alone, they are nothing but near war they come to life (as well as around sorcerers) and even more so if combined with a sorcerer. Their terminators are the same, their HQs are filled with only sorcerers. There'd need to be Chaos Lords with psyker rules likely minimum 2 and max 3 ML. They'd use machines for war that are individually piloted and would have mutant guard forces as well as other outlandish forces. They would wield tomes of archaic spells that are bewilderng to many controlling the warp with frightening might perhaps even having daemonic familiars that assist in fighting.

What did you used to have that allowed for this kind of army that you don't have anymore? How would you change terminators to be more in line with what you are looking for? Why can't you just pretend your terminators are dust? Why can't you use a sorcerer as your "chaos lord with MSL 3? How is that any different besides a little worse in close combat?

As per the latter, there's no real point to diversity if options are basically worthless. It's more it doesn't feel fluffy at all. The 6+ invuln is not only costly but meaningless only slightly okay on units that already have invulns. Yet it doesn't feel Tzeentchian by any means. The icon is simply soulblaze which is worthless. The sorcerers? It actually hurts them by forcing them to roll on the worst psyker table in the game. Simply put, is there some extent of competitive gripes? Yes. Codices that have terrible internal balance do cause problems that way. An army like Eldar are, although imperfect, more capable of theming their armies simply because everything works better. There's not nearly as many *click here to waste points* options. Keep in mind Ksons and Ahriman are actually terrible units with KSons being some of the worst units in the entire game so it's not entirely competitive either. SM do it best with rules that sweet over everything. I just wish it weren't hundreds of points wasted for things that only hurt me to select. That and it also doesn't really create variety for undivided forces. The marks are for the gods but there's really only vet of the long war or being nothing at all. And everybody can pick the vet of the long war.

I won't debate with you about how good thousand sons and Ahriman are. You probably know better than I do, but I just want there to be a distinction between what the op was saying about homogenization and chaos marines just being a bad codex.

Perhaps most damning is the fact that some no-name warband is what got the second supplement as well. Granted the supplements really don't mix things up very much.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quarterdime wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:


Perhaps most damning is the fact that some no-name warband is what got the second supplement as well. Granted the supplements really don't mix things up very much.

You need to understand something. Supplements exist to promote new releases and boost any subfaction that can find representation in the model line

Ok. I was saying that on behalf of the four. Red Corsairs would have been perfect.

What are you saying? That the four gods don't have representation? You're kidding fit? They have more representing than the Crimson Slaughter certainly... This was a joke right?

 Ignatius wrote:
Huh? There are rules for sonic weapons... So not sure what you're getting on about with regards to emperors children not being pink and black marines with sonic weapons.

Okay so no sonic war machines. Guess you're just going to have to use any of the other war machines at your disposal. To my knowledge there never was a sonic weapon predator for example, so not sure how that's been taken from you.

You can have Mutant surfs? What? Chaos cultists don't work here? What you make you satisfied? And did you have it before?

Rubric terminators? How are they any different than regular terminators?

Sorcerers don't use chaos powers or have stars on them? Why? And since when? And if they bother you that much, why not take an extra ten minutes and shave them off? Or make your own sorcerer? You're getting no pity from me here.

Not sure what I said about sharing vs diversity but okay.

Here's the thing: jet bikes have models, rules, and representation in the codex, as does chaos and they different possible legions and renegades

Answer me this: what did you used to have that you don't anymore that you wish you did, and you can cite as proof for this homogenization?

I mentioned it earlier but I'll elaborate and help explain what the other meant. Thing is, Emperor's children is a twisted group. The mark of slaanesh =/= Emperor's Children. Ruleswise it isn't as you cannot put sonic weapons on slaaneshi marked models nor do you get fearless. Add to that, only Noise Marines can wield the iconic Noise marine weapons. Even if you permitted all to use it, it's still not enough. You need to make the Noise Marine rules universal for all models or at least attainable. Zebio, if he happens to come in would give a better description.

Actually there was a time where sonic weapons were common. 3.5 permitted many units including dreads take sonic weapons

Chaos Cultists are a pitiful interpretation. What are they? They are guardsman with less options and a worse save. They cost the same as guardsman for less (well in some cases cost more) and can only select a shotgun for their champion and either flamers or heavy stubbers. That's all this unit can pick. And you can pay a point to give them an autogun I guess if you give up something else. They aren't the same by any stretch and it's then hammered in that the marks aren't that good. Add to that, mutant surfs are that. Mutants. The things they are are horrors to the mind and even imagination.

Rubric Terminators? What's not different about them? They are walking suits of metal that live only by ancient sorcery. Standard arms are in fluff meaningless only reliably taken down by anti-tank rounds. The sorcerers lead each unit. His personal guard, his personal bodyguards that escorts him across the battlefield. He buffs them to make them stronger and casts dark magic to bewitch and casts devestating magic to harm enemies. The lords? Why they are all mighty. previously great psykers, they have only grown stronger by the rubricate making all of them stronger plus falling to an interest in sorcery. At one point, Tzeentchian sorcerers were even immune to perils to represent their mastery and one would field chaos lords with spells to represent their forces. At best, you can field a Tzeentchian army that is manipulated by Ksons or has some Ksons that support them likely for some rare artefacts.

Sorcerers don't use chaos powers or have stars on them? Why? And since when? And if they bother you that much, why not take an extra ten minutes and shave them off? Or make your own sorcerer? You're getting no pity from me here.

Please elaborate upon this. I'm really not sure what you are trying to say here.

For all the additional options added, many choices were lost. I still miss my Sorcerer lords myself.

Also,

as does chaos and they different possible legions and renegades

makes no sense. There are no rules for the legions and renegades unless you count simply playing SM and proxying them as CSM.

 Ignatius wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:


Perhaps most damning is the fact that some no-name warband is what got the second supplement as well. Granted the supplements really don't mix things up very much.

You need to understand something. Supplements exist to promote new releases and boost any subfaction that can find representation in the model line

Ok. I was saying that on behalf of the four. Red Corsairs would have been perfect.

What are you saying? That the four gods don't have representation? You're kidding fit? They have more representing than the Crimson Slaughter certainly... This was a joke right?

They do in Codex: Chaos Daemons. If you're implying that they could have had a supplement that basically retied the CSM and CD codicies together with new and different ways to implement summoned daemons under the name of one of the four, then that would have actually worked out. It still wouldn't address the problem, though. In the Chaos Space Marines models range, you have some old cult troops models. That's it. No other models save the FInecast Nurgle Daemon Prince will give you anything beyond the Plastic CSM box.

Thank you Star Trotter. You're the first to actually give me anything to concretely go off of in terms of what used to be there. But as a side note, that post you responded to was to Quarterdime and not you Never the less I'll address it.

I suppose, that after reading your response, that we have a difference in opinion on the matter. Please keep in mind that I'm a chaos player too, and I've been playing chaos since the 3.5 codex as well as a few other armies so I do have a little bit of background on the army. However, my expertise is in Khorne.

Anyways, as for what I can see with regards to rubric terminators vs regular ones is the single difference of psykers in the squad (the champion specifically). All terminators are supposed to be as difficult as you mentioned it is to kill.

The sorcerers now do what you said buffing their terminator bodyguards and killing enemies with spells. No difference between rules and fluff here. Here's where we differ: I believe the sorcerer rules are enough to represent a chaos lord that is psychically gifted if you want. If there were a lord with access to mastery levels I would find either the sorcerer or The Lord redundant.

Why can't cultists represent mutants? Model them as mutants and bam.

I see emperors children being sufficiently represented by noise marines. Same with Berzerkers and world eaters. Same with plague marines and death guard. Same with thousand sons and thousand sons. Same with raptors and night lords. Same with daemon engines and iron warriors. Same with cultists and alpha legion. Same with chosen and black legion. Same with cultists and apostles with word bearers.

Everything is there, it's just not jumping straight into your face like space marine tactics are and you just have to be a little creative with how you play your army.

 Ignatius wrote:


I see emperors children being sufficiently represented by noise marines. Same with Berzerkers and world eaters. Same with plague marines and death guard. Same with thousand sons and thousand sons. Same with raptors and night lords. Same with daemon engines and iron warriors. Same with cultists and alpha legion. Same with chosen and black legion. Same with cultists and apostles with word bearers.

Everything is there, it's just not jumping straight into your face like space marine tactics are and you just have to be a little creative with how you play your army.

What about the rest of your army? A unit isn't an army.

 Quarterdime wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:


Perhaps most damning is the fact that some no-name warband is what got the second supplement as well. Granted the supplements really don't mix things up very much.

You need to understand something. Supplements exist to promote new releases and boost any subfaction that can find representation in the model line

Ok. I was saying that on behalf of the four. Red Corsairs would have been perfect.

What are you saying? That the four gods don't have representation? You're kidding fit? They have more representing than the Crimson Slaughter certainly... This was a joke right?

They do in Codex: Chaos Daemons. If you're implying that they could have had a supplement that basically retied the CSM and CD codicies together with new and different ways to implement summoned daemons under the name of one of the four, then that would have actually worked out. It still wouldn't address the problem, though. In the Chaos Space Marines models range, you have some old cult troops models. That's it. No other models save the FInecast Nurgle Daemon Prince will give you anything beyond the Plastic CSM box.

I said absolutely nothing about chaos daemons. This is a thread about chaos marines. What I was saying is that the chaos marine model is represented way more than crimson slaughter. You can call them outdated and old if you want but there are units that are cult troops and look like cult troops. They are there, yet there is nothing for the crimson slaughter. That's what I'm saying. There is nothing there for e crimson slaughter so how can the supplement be made to promote sales of models that don't exist?


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 Quarterdime wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:


I see emperors children being sufficiently represented by noise marines. Same with Berzerkers and world eaters. Same with plague marines and death guard. Same with thousand sons and thousand sons. Same with raptors and night lords. Same with daemon engines and iron warriors. Same with cultists and alpha legion. Same with chosen and black legion. Same with cultists and apostles with word bearers.

Everything is there, it's just not jumping straight into your face like space marine tactics are and you just have to be a little creative with how you play your army.

What about the rest of your army? A unit isn't an army.

The rest of your army is the rest of your army. I don't understand what you want or are looking for. How is each legions predators different? Or land raiders? Or obliterators? Or heldrakes? Or forge fiends, mauler fiends, spawn, bikers, raptors, etc? It's there. Everything is there to use.

What did you used to have that allowed for this kind of army that you don't have anymore? How would you change terminators to be more in line with what you are looking for? Why can't you just pretend your terminators are dust? Why can't you use a sorcerer as your "chaos lord with MSL 3? How is that any different besides a little worse in close combat?

Why not the same for all armies? Why let SM have chapter tactics, why let there be units like Tallarn's model or Farsight or anything that edits the composition of an army? Why have Pask that makes a vehicle driven in radically different, why have the Armoured Battlegroup FW has that makes tanks into troops when you can simply just use 2 chimeras and then fill up with tanks? Why not all of us just play SM and pretend they are different forces? Why not just play IG and pretend they are the lost and the damned? Because they aren't, not by any means.

I can pretend that they aren't, but I can pretend that a leman russ is a land raider if I so choose, I can pretend my mark of nurgle model is actually a Tzeentchian lord. And then I get slapped in the face by something such as Champions of Chaos which makes all of my leaders glory hogs. Why do the purified sorcerers get outlandish mutations? Why is it that Ahriman, the master diviner can't even roll on divination? Why do these things occur

And your question well... because it's not the same. The rules aren't the same. I can accept some restrictions in my guardsman list because spamming some artillery feels like a siege regiment. Bringing heavy weapons in high numbers fits this as well as some siege vehicles. Swap it up, one time lascannons, next time autocannon heavy. Each time they feel different. Tank regiment? Select from several different types of Leman Russes all with their own unique style. For the cherry on top nab yourself a commander of a tank and even Pask. If not satisfied go to FW and get Armoured Battlegroup. When I get my hands on IG, I feel the world expand. Not without its flaws, I'm still upset at many of the losses guardsman got particularly characters that gave certain flares to how you played but it doesnt' feel the same with CSM.

3.5 is a notorious codex you will hear. Both the best and possibly worst codex of all time. On one hand, it was internally flawed in balance on top of 3 very broken builds. Even with other codicees 1 of them reigned supreme. That said, it is considered the best by many as it was the most diverse. It had the most varied forces with legions having their own unique rules. Was it perfect? No, but it is frustrating to see it be yanked out, other factions be handed doctrines, doctrines be yanked out whilst SM and IG get special models that theme their forces before promptly IG lose most of this and SM get even more of it. As per Rubricate Marines, no. They had a sorcerer upgrade and were tanky and chosen were made to be sorcerers with varied options to represent how the higher groups, covens of psykers would react. Add to that, in a unit of 9 champion upgrades were free as it was Tzeentch's holy number. Then couple that with the synergy with daemons as they were still part of the codex and your hqs would nab themselves psyker rules. That's all gone.

Sure, it's not as bad as EC armies that became invalidated in that their weapons didn't work anymore nor is it as bad as the Lost and the Damned that got erased from the game but it's still a rather sour note.

Sad how playing C:SM is more accurate and feels more genuine than playing CSM. That little ":" makes a lot of difference.

 Ignatius wrote:
Thank you Star Trotter. You're the first to actually give me anything to concretely go off of in terms of what used to be there. But as a side note, that post you responded to was to Quarterdime and not you Never the less I'll address it.

I suppose, that after reading your response, that we have a difference in opinion on the matter. Please keep in mind that I'm a chaos player too, and I've been playing chaos since the 3.5 codex as well as a few other armies so I do have a little bit of background on the army. However, my expertise is in Khorne.

Anyways, as for what I can see with regards to rubric terminators vs regular ones is the single difference of psykers in the squad (the champion specifically). All terminators are supposed to be as difficult as you mentioned it is to kill.

The sorcerers now do what you said buffing their terminator bodyguards and killing enemies with spells. No difference between rules and fluff here. Here's where we differ: I believe the sorcerer rules are enough to represent a chaos lord that is psychically gifted if you want. If there were a lord with access to mastery levels I would find either the sorcerer or The Lord redundant.

Why can't cultists represent mutants? Model them as mutants and bam.

I see emperors children being sufficiently represented by noise marines. Same with Berzerkers and world eaters. Same with plague marines and death guard. Same with thousand sons and thousand sons. Same with raptors and night lords. Same with daemon engines and iron warriors. Same with cultists and alpha legion. Same with chosen and black legion. Same with cultists and apostles with word bearers.

Everything is there, it's just not jumping straight into your face like space marine tactics are and you just have to be a little creative with how you play your army.

And I'm talking the tank rounds taken to kill Ksons was for standard power armour. How the rules for Ksons worked was that they automatically passed psyker rolles, had 2 wounds (all both terminators and standard units), could only be harmed in CC or with guns S5+, and all were headed by sorcerers. It wasn't the best, my memory is foggy but I believe the army was one of the worse ones really but I loved it. On a quick side note, ah Khorne you say? Well I might by a filthy magician but I hold respect for those that enjoy their axes

The perk of a lord getting mastery levels is more because it fits chaos. There really wasn't a nead for a sorcerer themselves. The most optimal solution would have been having a Lord that could be upgraded to a sorcerer lord with options to have a commanderish equivelent that was a cheaper pick (like the current chaos lord) that you could also upgrade to be a sorcerer at the cost of not being capable of going to ml3. And the sorcerer is 2W, isn't fearless, and so on which makes it fit in even less with the forces. I just don't get why they removed chaos lords being able to use magic. It was one of several ways to make us different than SM yet we ended up just becoming more alike them in many ways.

Also, that's terrible observations, no offense. IW are actually stylized to use things such as basilisks on top of daemon engines. Most importantly, they are known for having tons of elite guardsman that work the sieges whilst they hit the most bloody points. The cultists don't fit alpha legion as alpha legion trained elite forces. Think Veterans really. Cultists and apostles... it just works better if there is synergy with daemons really. And the problem is that these are 1 hit wonder legions then and it only works with 1 named character (2 for Emp's children) and a single troop choice (well elite that can become troops) with little diversity besides that.

Regardless of that, it's been a pleasure debating with you honestly.

@StarTrotter: I'm actually flipping through my 3.5 dex as I've been reading through this thread. There is a lot of awesome awesome stuff in there. Lots of different upgrades and rules that exist no longer sadly. It makes me almost as sad as looking through my 4th edition Imperial Guard codex and all the doctrine goodness.

Yes. There are things that are gone. But should that mean that we all get moody and depressed that it's not there any longer? Should we resign ourselves to cursing GW for their decisions and going on about how we should get everything back? I say-and what I've been arguing here all along- that instead we take up the torch and allow our play styles, backgrounds of our forces, and modeling/painting reflect the type of force we use not some "here one codex gone the next" rules.

But even so, it's not as bad as a lot of people have been saying. Not by a long shot.

In return, you've given me a lot to go off of, which is a lot rarer than it sounds and while my thoughts are different than yours, I'll end by saying that even after everything I've said on this thread, I really do want pretty much everything we've been talking about back. After I get my doctrines for my Imperial Guard back of course

 Ignatius wrote:
@StarTrotter: I'm actually flipping through my 3.5 dex as I've been reading through this thread. There is a lot of awesome awesome stuff in there. Lots of different upgrades and rules that exist no longer sadly. It makes me almost as sad as looking through my 4th edition Imperial Guard codex and all the doctrine goodness.

Yes. There are things that are gone. But should that mean that we all get moody and depressed that it's not there any longer? Should we resign ourselves to cursing GW for their decisions and going on about how we should get everything back? I say-and what I've been arguing here all along- that instead we take up the torch and allow our play styles, backgrounds of our forces, and modeling/painting reflect the type of force we use not some "here one codex gone the next" rules.

But even so, it's not as bad as a lot of people have been saying. Not by a long shot.

Frankly I'm keeping an eye out for the http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/592075.page on proposted rules. It's a fandex working on really fleshing out every segment of chaos from the lost and the damned to renegades to the legions. Not that it's perfect, I doubt anything will. It also helps that my group has basically tossed the rulebook out the door and decided to make our own. It's our enjoyment in the end so things removed such as named characters we drag back in and see if they need to become cheaper and the sorts. And in the end I'm not depressed, admittedly I moved largely on to focus on Chaos Daemons and my IG but that's a different story. CSM is that army that makes me a bit sad that after so much potential, instead of fixing its flaws we kinda threw the baby out with the water and tried to rebuild everything from the ground up yet it came out as far more homogenius and bland with an odd.... melting pot sensation that makes it feel like chaos is rather friendly . Admittedly many of my qualms would be at least settled if the mark of tzeentch wasn't such a bad buy simply because it wouldn't cause my group as much of a headache to fix. We already have Tau, Daemons, Nids, Eldar, and IG to deal with, CSM just makes our lives all the more difficult especially as Tzeentch is just kind of at an odd point currently in CSM's codex. This is admittedly a bit off topic though.

Oh and for all that I say, it's been a pleasure speaking with you. And yes! Doctrines back (or at least some rules would be fun. Some general ones that hint at cadian style, catachan, Mordian, etc would also be pretty cool)

 Ignatius wrote:


The rest of your army is the rest of your army. I don't understand what you want or are looking for. How is each legions predators different? Or land raiders? Or obliterators? Or heldrakes? Or forge fiends, mauler fiends, spawn, bikers, raptors, etc? It's there. Everything is there to use.

The Death Guard maulerfiends are different because the Death Guard don't have maulerfiends. If they do, then it was given to them as a gift and that still doesn't make it "theirs" in that sense. Just like how the Terminators in the Thousand Sons are different in the way that has already been explained to you. More importantly, the Noise Marine Upgrade Pack doesn't give you any Emperor's Children Iconography. You'd have to buy their metal shoulder pads as well, and even then, I'm not sure if that'd be enough. I'm not that familiar with the Emperor's Children. Maybe a more enlightened brother can let me know if the Emperor's Children even use conventional weaponry anymore.

@StarTrotter: And fine debating with you sir! I'm starting to see perhaps where we differed initially- I like to play around at a couple different stores, so making due has sort of been put into my war gaming blood I never had the luxury of changing rules, so I can see where your opinion comes from.

@Quarterdime: we are in the same boat, as I said earlier I don't know much besides Khorne and I apologize for that. But I've been trying to stick to general concepts rather than specific examples like sonic weapons. But surely a death guard warp smith has the know how to create a forge fiend yes? They had to come from somewhere.

Just so I can get a better understanding, you are more upset about models and looks than you are about anything else in the codex correct? Or am I just making a fool of myself?

The 3.5 codex was unfair for offering too many different options, to the point where the challenges of list building were too alleviated by it being so easy to scale point costs and effectiveness which always gave a high degree of point efficiency. Consider how many rules altering options existed for the basic chaos marine squad before weapon options... Legion, veterans, marks... Isn't that over 200 combination of special rules?