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rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The CoM targets all psykers within range. if this happens you roll LD and if failed you remove one psyker since the attack specifically targets psykers.

The underlined is incorrect.

No it is not.

It does not Target them, but it certainly targets them...

No, it certainly does not.
"target" is the subject or aim of an attack or effect. The Crucible doesn't aim or pick a subject to devote energy to. It's completely uncaring as to who it nukes.

You're literally inventing things to try and make it work the way you think it should. You shouldn't do that.

RAW it's grey. I think it's only intended to remove one model from a BoP unit.

Agreed, RAW it is grey.

However, RAI, I believe it removes the whole unit. I think of it this way:
If the crucible removes one of my Farseers, I would lose 3 warp charge dice, 3 (or 4) powers, and would give up one kill point. If the entire BoP unit is removed it largely has the same effect. If only one model is removed, it virtually has no effect.

If Perils removes one of your Farseers you lose 3 Warp Hcaege dice, 3 or 4 powers, and one Kill Point.

Perils on a BoP unit does what again? Right, just kills one model.

rigeld2 wrote:
If Perils removes one of your Farseers you lose 3 Warp Hcaege dice, 3 or 4 powers, and one Kill Point.

Perils on a BoP unit does what again? Right, just kills one model.

I get your point, but perils only causes a single wound most of the time, while the crucible takes all your wounds every time. Besides, this is not perils.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
If Perils removes one of your Farseers you lose 3 Warp Hcaege dice, 3 or 4 powers, and one Kill Point.

Perils on a BoP unit does what again? Right, just kills one model.

I get your point, but perils only causes a single wound most of the time, while the crucible takes all your wounds every time. Besides, this is not perils.

No, it's not perils.
My point was that different units are different and are affected differently by different things.
Your method unnecessarily penalizes BoP/S units.

If the sixth edition FAQ spelled out that it only removed one model from BOP ( if I remember correctly) is there any reason to think that has changed?

Ok, so lets say it both targets and causes hits.
BoP says these hits are randomly allocated amongst models with the BoP rule.
The Crucible affects every psykers within 3D6".

If I have 3 Zoanthropes in a unit, with an attached Prime, 2 zoanthropes are within. The unit would be forced to take 2 leadership tests, and the "hits" (the Ld tests) are randomly distributed to Zoanthrope models as per the BoP rule.
The only way you aren't causes multiple tests on BoP is if somehow the 2nd, 3rd and 4th model with the BoP rule aren't psykers.
I do not believe this is the original intent, but that's the fallout with shoddy FAQ's and out of date rules.

So it does not target any psyker in range? Cool, means it doesn't affect them either....

 don_mondo wrote:
So it does not target any psyker in range? Cool, means it doesn't affect them either....

Citation required.
Why do you say that?

rigeld2 wrote:
If Perils removes one of your Farseers you lose 3 Warp Hcaege dice, 3 or 4 powers, and one Kill Point.

Perils on a BoP unit does what again? Right, just kills one model.

What about casting Possession?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 don_mondo wrote:
So it does not target any psyker in range? Cool, means it doesn't affect them either....

There are plenty of effects in the game that does not target a unit/model/whatever... but still effects them plenty.

RAW definitely seems to indicate the whole unit is removed. Not sure how it should be played though.

ohiowargamer wrote:
If the sixth edition FAQ spelled out that it only removed one model from BOP ( if I remember correctly) is there any reason to think that has changed?

the issue is that it has been removed from the 7th edition faq purposefully, means that that is no longer the case.

blaktoof wrote:

ohiowargamer wrote:
If the sixth edition FAQ spelled out that it only removed one model from BOP ( if I remember correctly) is there any reason to think that has changed?

the issue is that it has been removed from the 7th edition faq purposefully, means that that is no longer the case.

Well it is the case, as the FaQ's are clarifications of the rules. Ergo it should still be played that way as the wording has not changed and the rule was clarified to work in a certain way.

blaktoof wrote:

ohiowargamer wrote:
If the sixth edition FAQ spelled out that it only removed one model from BOP ( if I remember correctly) is there any reason to think that has changed?

the issue is that it has been removed from the 7th edition faq purposefully, means that that is no longer the case.

Nearly everything has been removed from all the FAQs. That does not mean that the previous rulings are invalid, just that they haven't written them back in yet. Which, IMO, they should have had full FAQs ready to go at release, not this half-assed job that they threw out and called an FAQ update.

Many of the FAQs contain some of their previous rulings, along with a few new rulings for 7th.

I do not agree that they removed it because its still valid. I am sorry, but that does not make sense.

Perhaps tyranids still cannot use fortifications/terrain because a previous ruling said they could not. Nah, that doesn't make sense.


The current rule for BoP says they follow all the rules for psykers with 2 clarifications, one is for using psychic powers, the other is for suffering a perils of the warp/ being hit by an attack that specifically targets psykers.

If this unit suffers Perils of the Warp, or is hit by an attack that specifically targets Psykers, the hits are Randomly Allocated amongst models with the Brotherhood of Psykers/ Sorcerers special rule. If a model with this special rule gains or loses a psychic power, all other models with this special rule in their unit also gain or lose that power.

the issues are:

Crucible of malediction does not choose a target, nor does it require LoS.

The Crucible of malediction does not require a to hit roll, and does not auto hit.

It hits every psyker within range.

BoP does not say the unit counts as 1 psyker, the new wording says you distribute the hits among the unit to models that have the BoP rule, this means for each hit you put one on each model with BoP ignoring models that are in the unit that do not have BoP.

The crucible of malediction affects every psykers within range.

Each model in a BoP/BoS unit is a model with the rule psyker, so it generates an effect for each model. If you applied the BoP rule, which you can't as they are not hits nor are they targeting a unit, but let's say you do, you still have to test for every model in range you would then randomly remove models based on the # that fail as opposed to rolling for each model and seeing if each one fails individually.

blaktoof wrote:
Many of the FAQs contain some of their previous rulings, along with a few new rulings for 7th.

I do not agree that they removed it because its still valid. I am sorry, but that does not make sense.

You do realize that the Warhammer 40K Rulebook FAQ is not there right, they have not posted the Warhammer 40K Rulebook FAQ yet.

No reason to think that the clarifications made in the last one are not the same if the wordings have not changed.

Mmmmmm, Blaktoof? You do realize that when you say:

"The Crucible of malediction does not require a to hit roll, and does not auto hit.

It hits every psyker within range."

... that you invalidate your entire argument?

Per the BRB and DE codex, only 1 randomly determined model in a BoP unit would be removed on a failed Ld roll. Good luck trying to get a TO to agree to your interpretation.

SJ

Per the BRB and DE codex, only 1 randomly determined model in a BoP unit would be removed on a failed Ld roll. Good luck trying to get a TO to agree to your interpretation.

that's neither in the BRB or the DE codex, posting false information is not proper.

Despite me saying the word hit, it is not used in the rules for crucible of malediction. There is no hitting, no auto hit, no to hit roll.

Once per game the model may use it instead of firing, every psyker within 3d6" must passs a leadership roll or be removed from play as they go stark raving mad. No saves of any kind are allowed.

As you can see the rule for crucible does not require targeting, or hitting.

BoP changed from how it was worded last edition, it doesn't protect the unit from taking more than 1 wound from a psyker being affected by something.

If a template/blast weapon that only affected psykers hit the unit it would not only affect 1 model, as per the current BoP/BoS rule it would affect as many models as were hit but the hits would be randomly allocated to models in the unit that have the psyker or BoP/BoS rule.

The new wording of the BoP rule prevents the unit from being removed by a failed perils roll, as the perils hit is 1 hit that can be randomly allocated but in all other regards the whole unit is eligible for being hit by things that affect psykers.

If I was at a Tournament and found the TO was incapable of following basic RAW in the rulebook, I would ask for my entry fee back and leave.

You posted it yourself, BoP prevents the removal of the entire unit by removing one randomly selected model, while CoM only removes Psykers on a failed Ld check. If CoM removed units, targeted units, hit units, it wound be a different story. Instead, CoM effects Psykers in range, forces a Ld check, and removes the Psykers that fail the check, something BoP protects against. You are barking HYWPI, not RAW.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
You posted it yourself, BoP prevents the removal of the entire unit by removing one randomly selected model,

Except that BoP only does this when the attack targets psykers, and the Crucible never targets anything.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
You posted it yourself, BoP prevents the removal of the entire unit by removing one randomly selected model,

Except that BoP only does this when the attack targets psykers, and the Crucible never targets anything.

Incorrect, the Crucible targets all psykers in range...

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
You posted it yourself, BoP prevents the removal of the entire unit by removing one randomly selected model,

Except that BoP only does this when the attack targets psykers, and the Crucible never targets anything.

Incorrect, the Crucible targets all psykers in range...

It affects all psykers in range. It does not target them.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
You posted it yourself, BoP prevents the removal of the entire unit by removing one randomly selected model,

Except that BoP only does this when the attack targets psykers, and the Crucible never targets anything.

Incorrect, the Crucible targets all psykers in range...

It affects all psykers in range. It does not target them.

It does not Target them, but it does target them...

Affecting psykers is targeting psykers.

affecting and targeting are not the same.

ex- models suffering casualties from running through DT and being removed have been affected by it, the DT did not target them however.

Also I do not think you understand how BoP works, clarification #2 states that if a unit is hit by an attack that targets psykers the hits are randomly allocated to models in the unit with BoP special rule.

So if for example a mindstrike missile, a weapon that does roll to hit and does declare a target hits a unit with BoP and hits 3 models, you distribute 3 hits randomly to the models in the unit. not 1.

Crucible of malediction does not hit 1 model, it affects all models in range. So even if #2 kicked in and it affected 10 models in a unit because the were in range you would allocate 10 "hits" to the unit not 1, and take 10 ld tests not 1. Given that CoM doesn't target or cause hits this rule would never kick in, and yes this also means this rule does next to nothing other than you don't roll 1 test for the entire unit but you roll 1 test for each model affected by something that hits it. Hence why HITS is plural in the rules for BoP.

BoP is not the same as it used to be.

that said CoM also does not target or hit.

Bad example, DT is not something that is activated.

 DeathReaper wrote:
It does not Target them, but it does target them...

Affecting psykers is targeting psykers.

Okay...does this distinction have any explicit basis in the rules? I'm willing to hear this argument out, but I cannot find anywhere in the book that explicitly (or implicitly) clarifies a distinction.

Target is a process, shooting attacks use the Target Process to determine what unit is selected for a shooting attack and is clearly defined in the BRB.

target is the normal English definition of the word and its definition should be used when not talking about the shooting process.

Plus the CoM was clarified in 6th and the wording has not changed so that clarification should still be used.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Target is a process, shooting attacks use the Target Process to determine what unit is selected for a shooting attack and is clearly defined in the BRB.

target is the normal English definition of the word and its definition should be used when not talking about the shooting process.

I'm halfway convinced. This seems like a reasonable line of logic so far. However, I can't find any other instances of Target being used, capitalized, as a proper term. All the other rules I could think of (and check) that use 'Target' in the way you specify as a game-term, do not capitalize it. Without some form of distinction within the book, I don't think we can draw a line and say "Well, this time they mean it as a game-term and this time they don't" without some identifier to tell us that. Have I missed an example of 'target' being capitalized to mark it out as a rules-specific term?

Plus the CoM was clarified in 6th and the wording has not changed so that clarification should still be used.

I'm actually bang alongside this line of reasoning, with two caveats. The first is, we have to recognize that using an FAQ that no longer exists is not RAW, but is a houserule. Granted, an extremely reasonable one in many cases. HOWEVER, in this case the nature of psykers and psychic powers changed dramatically between these two editions, so I don't think intent on the part of the authors is so easily read in this case.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Target is a process, shooting attacks use the Target Process to determine what unit is selected for a shooting attack and is clearly defined in the BRB.

target is the normal English definition of the word and its definition should be used when not talking about the shooting process.

Plus the CoM was clarified in 6th and the wording has not changed so that clarification should still be used.

If a blast scatters and hits your own unit, did you target that unit?

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Target is a process, shooting attacks use the Target Process to determine what unit is selected for a shooting attack and is clearly defined in the BRB.

target is the normal English definition of the word and its definition should be used when not talking about the shooting process.

Plus the CoM was clarified in 6th and the wording has not changed so that clarification should still be used.

If a blast scatters and hits your own unit, did you target that unit?

This brings to mind the old 6th Ed Night fighting rules.
You cannot target something outside of 36", but a blast can scatter onto the unit, as it was never targeted.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Target is a process, shooting attacks use the Target Process to determine what unit is selected for a shooting attack and is clearly defined in the BRB.

target is the normal English definition of the word and its definition should be used when not talking about the shooting process.

I'm halfway convinced. This seems like a reasonable line of logic so far. However, I can't find any other instances of Target being used, capitalized, as a proper term. All the other rules I could think of (and check) that use 'Target' in the way you specify as a game-term, do not capitalize it. Without some form of distinction within the book, I don't think we can draw a line and say "Well, this time they mean it as a game-term and this time they don't" without some identifier to tell us that. Have I missed an example of 'target' being capitalized to mark it out as a rules-specific term?

I couldn't find one.