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I've been on a North Korea reading kick lately and watching a few videos on it, then I saw this article today;

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/kim-jong-un-emerges-submarine-n132211

and this;

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/plugged-in/2013/01/02/how-north-korea-fuels-its-military-trucks-with-trees/

and this;

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/16/world/asia/north-korea-un-report/

and this video series (really a terrific watch);

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24R8JObNNQ4



...and I've been thinking to myself, while the 1984 parallel is trite and perhaps overused, I really can't think of a better analogy. I also cannot get the "How" into my gut. I would think, between mouthfuls of grass, photo worship required and seeing their portly dear leader play the Utopian mastermind, North Koreans would slam down their forks and say "Enough of this BS!!". I understand how dogmatic indoctrination works but even then..if you look throughout history at the Russian Revolution, the French Revolution, etc etc....at some point people get organized and say enough. Yet, their oppressive regime keeps right on rolling along with really no end in sight. It's really astonishing to me that in this modern day and age that something like this continues to exist.

The French revolution had the example of the Americans to work from, the Russians were sent Leinin and their intellectuals were exposed to socialism. What made these revolutions successful to varying degrees though was that there was a large educated populace who had knowledge of the outside world and how things might be for the better if they destroy the previous social hierarchy after being forced into suddenly worse circumstances. Because of NKs complete control on what the people can read, see, hear and travel to, along with fear of the government (Which stretched back centuries) its a perfect storm to keep revolution from occurring in the country. Welp there's my two cents any way.

Why the North Korean military is fed very well. North Korean government is their meal ticket.

Read up on the North Korean Submarine that ran into a sand bar in '95. I was at Camp Humphrey at the time. We seriously thought they were coming down. When Kunsan Air Force got attack the Chain of Command snatched everyone up whose Secondary MOS was Combat Arms.

The government can oppress a lot of people when they are unable to defend themselves. I'm sure most North Koreans really dislike the living conditions they are forced to endure but even if they protest they have no real ability to do it with any force or weight behind it, an oppressive military state isn't going to respond to non-violent action as they've established many times over they don't care what the citizens want (or need).

At some point their government will collapse from internal division and a rotting industrial base, sadly it doesn't seem like it will come soon enough to help.

As long as a dictatorship stays funded, it will prevent any revolutions/rebellions.

The French and Russian Revolutions that you mentioned are both examples of this. The governments were obviously horrible for awhile, but not much was done about it until they ran out of money.

North Korea is mineral rich, and minerals are still there even if the economy slumps. It also relies on foreign aid from China and Russia, in-return for North Korean support in all matters. Now, North Korea will only collapse if the country's support becomes worth less to Russia and China than the cost they pay for propping it up. Considering that North Korea has nuclear weapons and the fifth largest army in the world, this won't happen anytime soon.

 AgeOfEgos wrote:
...and I've been thinking to myself, while the 1984 parallel is trite and perhaps overused, I really can't think of a better analogy. I also cannot get the "How" into my gut. I would think, between mouthfuls of grass, photo worship required and seeing their portly dear leader play the Utopian mastermind, North Koreans would slam down their forks and say "Enough of this BS!!". I understand how dogmatic indoctrination works but even then..if you look throughout history at the Russian Revolution, the French Revolution, etc etc....at some point people get organized and say enough. Yet, their oppressive regime keeps right on rolling along with really no end in sight. It's really astonishing to me that in this modern day and age that something like this continues to exist.

It has nothing to do with indoctrination. People in North Korea aren't naive or stupid, they know what the outside world is like. The reality is that attempting any kind of rebellion against government puts your life at risk, and perhaps more importantly the lives of your family - so instead people just go along.

Now, should something happen that makes people think it is worth the risk, such as absolute desperation (such as the food shortages in Tsarist Russia) or some kind of instability or weakness in government that makes you believe that your revolution will work, then you see people taking a chance.


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 Commissar-Danno wrote:
The French revolution had the example of the Americans to work from, the Russians were sent Leinin and their intellectuals were exposed to socialism.

The French went off the American example, after the American example was largely modeled on ideals formed within the intelligentsia of France.

The Russians weren't 'sent' Lenin, not really sure what you're getting at there - maybe his time in exile in Germany? I agree that socialism in Russia came from socialist writings coming from Germany, namely Marx' two great works.


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 LoneLictor wrote:
As long as a dictatorship stays funded, it will prevent any revolutions/rebellions.

The French and Russian Revolutions that you mentioned are both examples of this. The governments were obviously horrible for awhile, but not much was done about it until they ran out of money.

North Korea is mineral rich, and minerals are still there even if the economy slumps. It also relies on foreign aid from China and Russia, in-return for North Korean support in all matters. Now, North Korea will only collapse if the country's support becomes worth less to Russia and China than the cost they pay for propping it up.

It isn't just the Russians and the Chinese sending aid, and the idea of anyone trying to foster North Korea as an ally is comical. They're an embarrassment to the Chinese, that insane kid you used to be friends with, that you now feel a kind of moral obligation to look after, partly out of loyalty but mostly because you're afraid of what will happen if he totally spazzes out, but really you'd rather just go hang out with your new rich friends.

Anyhow, the US gave more than a billion in food and energy aid over the 1990s.

Considering that North Korea has nuclear weapons and the fifth largest army in the world, this won't happen anytime soon.

The total size of North Korea's army is meaningless. A bunch of half starved troops relying on trucks that were donated by the Soviets in the 1950s does not make for an effective fighting force. No, the issues with collapse in North Korea are the artillery pieces pointed at Seoul, and the chaos that several million starving refugees will cause.


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 paulson games wrote:
The government can oppress a lot of people when they are unable to defend themselves. I'm sure most North Koreans really dislike the living conditions they are forced to endure but even if they protest they have no real ability to do it with any force or weight behind it, an oppressive military state isn't going to respond to non-violent action as they've established many times over they don't care what the citizens want (or need).

North Korea probably has the biggest black market relative to the legal market of any country on Earth. Illegal trade across the Chinese border is massive. Are you telling me that the North Koreans wouldn't risk getting their hands on guns for a revolution, but will take risks to get their hands on bootleg Jackie Chan movies?

This gun thing with you people. Just please stop fantasizing about them. Revolutions are hard - but they are hard because there are secret police and compromised informers who will betray cells, leading to capture & torture, leading to more betrayals and so on. To defeat that you need a sophisticated cell structure that means one compromised cell won't betray the whole movement, while at the same time making sure those cells can co-ordinate and support each other. If you have that, then getting your hands on some guns is easy.

TLDR- guns are the easy part of a revolution.

 Jihadin wrote:
Why the North Korean military is fed very well. North Korean government is their meal ticket.

Read up on the North Korean Submarine that ran into a sand bar in '95. I was at Camp Humphrey at the time. We seriously thought they were coming down. When Kunsan Air Force got attack the Chain of Command snatched everyone up whose Secondary MOS was Combat Arms.

From what I hear, even their military isn't getting enough food by our standards. Of course by their point of view they've got the best deal they could.

And yeah, its probably why the military stays the way it is. Nobody wants to give up the food.

TBH, be happy that it hasn't collapsed yet. Yes it is one of the worst places in Earth, but the moment it collapses it is going to become far, far worse.

 Tyran wrote:
TBH, be happy that it hasn't collapsed yet. Yes it is one of the worst places in Earth, but the moment it collapses it is going to become far, far worse.

I seriously doubt it.

They'd get occupied by either China or South Korea, either of which would be a massive improvement over the current situation.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
TBH, be happy that it hasn't collapsed yet. Yes it is one of the worst places in Earth, but the moment it collapses it is going to become far, far worse.

I seriously doubt it.

They'd get occupied by either China or South Korea, either of which would be a massive improvement over the current situation.

The thing is that once the government feels the end, they are going to fire everything at Seul, better die with a bang than quietly, some say.
With the combination of conventional artillery, chemical weapons, biological weapons, and whatever nuke they have managed to assemble, SK will suffer a lot, in economic terms, it may lose more than its GNP.

After that the rest of the world invades NK, but no one is going to want to deal with the occupation of it, it is going to be incredibly expensive to rebuild the country, it is already a mess now, wait after it has been bombarded to the stone age.

And of course the refuges, with its economy broken, SK isn't going to be able to deal with them, and China is probably going to kill anyone crossing the border, as they aren't going to want to deal with that.

So the aftermath, SK is bankrupt, and the World's economy is destroyed, and lets not forget all the lives lost to the bombardment on Seul, the invasion of NK, and all those refuges with nowhere to go.

China would poor whatever resources North Korea needs to maintain a buffer country.

 Jihadin wrote:
China would poor whatever resources North Korea needs to maintain a buffer country.

It is less a buffer country and more a barrel of powder that no one wants blowing up.

 Grey Templar wrote:
From what I hear, even their military isn't getting enough food by our standards. Of course by their point of view they've got the best deal they could.

Some parts of the military aren't, some parts are. Higher ranks and more prestigious and powerful units are doing fine. In the outer provinces almost no supplies are sent, and military units are basically semi-authorised bandit gangs that take from the local populations as much as they can get away with (there have been actual shooting matches between army units over territory - who gets to claim villages as part of the territory they get to loot).


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 Tyran wrote:
The thing is that once the government feels the end, they are going to fire everything at Seul, better die with a bang than quietly, some say.

Maybe. Plenty of despotic regimes transitioned without bloodshed. Not saying there will be a peaceful solution, just that one is certainly quite possible.


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 Jihadin wrote:
China would poor whatever resources North Korea needs to maintain a buffer country.

China's primary concern is the likelihood of millions of refugees flooding across the border and upsetting their own tentative political balance.

As the dominant regional power China will likely demand primary say in how the situation is finally resolved, but buffer states are kind of 20th century thinking. China's biggest concern will be accessing NK mineral resources without taking on full responsibility for NK's humanitarian problems.

 Jihadin wrote:
Why the North Korean military is fed very well. North Korean government is their meal ticket.

Read up on the North Korean Submarine that ran into a sand bar in '95. I was at Camp Humphrey at the time. We seriously thought they were coming down. When Kunsan Air Force got attack the Chain of Command snatched everyone up whose Secondary MOS was Combat Arms.

Well, the NK military is fed *better* than the rest of the country, I wouldn't say they're fed "very well", especially outside of high status units. Their soldiers often look just as stunted and thin, with uniforms that look two sizes too big, as everyone else there does

Forgot the hair cuts

 Vaktathi wrote:
Well, the NK military is fed *better* than the rest of the country, I wouldn't say they're fed "very well", especially outside of high status units. Their soldiers often look just as stunted and thin, with uniforms that look two sizes too big, as everyone else there does

Again, the quality depends on the unit in question. Regional units are often pretty much left to their own devices, feeding themselves with what they take off the local population. But then prestigious units on the SK border will be much better fed and supplied.

Wow look at that sub. I've never seen rust on a submarine before. Serously. Wow.

All the subversive elements of their society had either been executed, starved to death, been jailed, or fled.

The North Korea that is left is a shell of haunted eyed peasants, opportunists, warmongers, and sycophants that are completely dominated by the government and ideology.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
Why the North Korean military is fed very well. North Korean government is their meal ticket.

Read up on the North Korean Submarine that ran into a sand bar in '95. I was at Camp Humphrey at the time. We seriously thought they were coming down. When Kunsan Air Force got attack the Chain of Command snatched everyone up whose Secondary MOS was Combat Arms.

From what I hear, even their military isn't getting enough food by our standards. Of course by their point of view they've got the best deal they could.

And yeah, its probably why the military stays the way it is. Nobody wants to give up the food.

This is a good lesson on keeping the control of food spread out to a broad base instead of having it in the hands of only a few people or organizations. Control the food, control the people.

That submarine looks like an old rustbucket...

In this case, literally. Jeez you need a tetanus shot just from looking at the pics.

If my Navy classes are remembered correctly, I believe that is a 60's era Soviet Whisky Class submarine (Whiskey IV I think). Diesel electric boat, typically very quiet when running off battery as long as all of the machinery is in good shape and not vibrating. Loud as all hell when the diesel is running to charge the batteries. One LA class US sub would know its there and sink it if needed before they knew what hit them.

Lots of smaller countries have old Soviet boats still in use that have been retro-fitted and are still in service, and google fu shows NK purchased 4 of them.

Well I doubt this one got retrofitted.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well I doubt this one got retrofitted.

With that rust below the waterline it doesn't look like its seen a dry dock in some time. When we painted the USS Ohio for our recommissioning ceremony as an SSGN the paint we used was hardcore, spilled a 5 gallon bucket in the bottom of the little dinghy we used to get around the water line and by the time we were done it had dried my boots to the bottom of the boat and I had to leave them there because we couldn't break them free... dunno what happened to them after that, we left the barn and went to sea trials.

I am more surprised at that submarine. Why hasn't it fallen apart yet? How does it stay afloat? How many extra crewmembers do they need to man the pomps?
That thing almost makes a U-Boot look modern. Even the Ukrainian Black Sea Fleet was not that rusty
I saw the same kind of submarine in a St. Petersburg museum, it was 100 times better maintained despite already being retired in the 60's. If this is what an active North Korean submarine looks like, I wonder in what condition their museum pieces must be. (if they have not pressed their museum pieces in active service that is )
The submarine is from the early 1950's btw, not the 1960's.


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All other stuff in North Korea also seems to come straight from the '50s. It is like a time machine!

At times in the '90. We can watch the same five tanks move back and forth behind hills. In an attempt to appear they have a massive tank division waiting on the other side of the DMZ. They move stuff on them to make them appear different IE camo nets, fuel/water cans, positioning of the Commander crew serve. Seems a lot of North Korean tanks numbers are 547, 398, 102, 673, and 421 (example numbers)

As a wise man once said...

In Soviet Korea, rusty bucket sails you!

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I am more surprised at that submarine. Why hasn't it fallen apart yet? How does it stay afloat? How many extra crewmembers do they need to man the pomps?
That thing almost makes a U-Boot look modern. Even the Ukrainian Black Sea Fleet was not that rusty
I saw the same kind of submarine in a St. Petersburg museum, it was 100 times better maintained despite already being retired in the 60's. If this is what an active North Korean submarine looks like, I wonder in what condition their museum pieces must be. (if they have not pressed their museum pieces in active service that is )
The submarine is from the early 1950's btw, not the 1960's.


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All other stuff in North Korea also seems to come straight from the '50s. It is like a time machine!

You see, what the pictures don't show is all the hundreds of slaves swimming underneath, treading water hard to keep it aloft.

Thinking all those plastic bottles thrown into the ocean had to go somewhere...

 Jihadin wrote:
Thinking all those plastic bottles thrown into the ocean had to go somewhere...

Scuba tanks for the slaves?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well I doubt this one got retrofitted.

Evidently it didn't even get a good primer paint job. I wonder if it has a picture of Khruschev in it.