Chaos sorcerer summoning Khorne Daemons?

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**Kavish**

So now that technically Chaos sorcerers can summon Khorne Daemons on the tabletop. Is it ok fluff wise? You know, since Khorne hates psykers and all.

**BrianDavion**

Khorne's no objection to summoning his deamons.

**Maximus Bitch**

Khorne used to hate psykers because he was all about martial honour . (Now why didn't leman russ turn to khorne?

)

But now khorne is just bloodthirsty and uncaring, thus the anti psyker rule still matter?

**Inquisitor Bob**

Since they feed on terror I doubt Khorne dis tainted "magic" because of "honour".. He just wants his minion to taste the blood as it pours out of their victim rather than sand 40ft away and go -pew pew- with their brain.. Or something like that..

More likely if your a demon starving for a good psychic meal.. Are really goin to stop when one opens up next to you say "hey guys.. Wait.. I think this one was opened by a psycher..."

**Ailaros**

Khorne doesn't straight hate psykers. This is a bad stereotype that hasn't aged well. Khorne is a warp entity, and so is his demons. The psykers aren't the problem, and never have been, it's only certain things you do with psychic powers that khorne doesn't like.

It's the world eaters who hate psykers. Take them out of the equation and most of the myth of khorne hating them evaporates.

**Ignatius**

I think Khorne would approve a Psyker melting a mans face off just as much as he would someone shooting them

**Xyptc**

Ailaros wrote:
Khorne doesn't straight hate psykers. This is a bad stereotype that hasn't aged well. Khorne is a warp entity, and so is his demons. The psykers aren't the problem, and never have been, it's only certain things you do with psychic powers that khorne doesn't like.

It's the world eaters who hate psykers. Take them out of the equation and most of the myth of khorne hating them evaporates.

Ignatius wrote:
I think Khorne would approve a Psyker melting a mans face off just as much as he would someone shooting them

I think the above is pretty much on the money.

What Khorne despises is the cowardly application of sorcery when you should be facing your enemy and looking him in the eye as you cut his head off/shoot his head off/summon a Bloodletter to chew his head off.

Chaos is magic, and Khorne is linked to it just as much as the other gods. He just has a code of practice (sort of) regarding its use.

Now the World Eaters on the other hand, they range from distrusting to outright hating psykers. That goes back to the Horus Heresy when they discovered that the Butcher's Nails they all implanted into themselves reacted 'badly' to psychic power (there were a lot of mutual head exploding parties).

The forces of Chaos need psykers though. They need them to travel through the Warp, to summon Daemons, to bind Daemon-tech and for interstellar communication (and a whole range of other things). It doesn't matter which god you serve; you need psykers and Warpcraft. Even the World Eaters will have psykers in their fleets, although they are very unlikely to be actual CSM. Furthermore, whatever psykers they do have are likely to be treated with contempt.

**Jehan-reznor**

Ailaros wrote:
Khorne doesn't straight hate psykers. This is a bad stereotype that hasn't aged well. Khorne is a warp entity, and so is his demons. The psykers aren't the problem, and never have been, it's only certain things you do with psychic powers that khorne doesn't like.

It's the world eaters who hate psykers. Take them out of the equation and most of the myth of khorne hating them evaporates.

That is not completely correct, in the old fluff Khorne did hate Magic and sorcerers, that's why in Warhammer and 40K Khorne had no sorcerers/Psykers, and to summon a bloodthirster you don't need magic just lots of frikkin bloody sacrifices!

**Void__Dragon**

Jehan-reznor wrote:

That is not completely correct, in the old fluff Khorne did hate Magic and sorcerers, that's why in Warhammer and 40K Khorne had no sorcerers/Psykers, and to summon a bloodthirster you don't need magic just lots of frikkin bloody sacrifices!

Which is the very foundation of sorcery.

Khorne is fine with sorcery being used for purposes like summoning an army of Daemons, or when Angron used sorcery to maintain his hold on the materium. Actually using sorcery to kill your foes is frowned upon though, because you're not using your strength to kill your foe. You're "borrowing" the Warp's. It's weak in Khorne's eyes.

**Furyou Miko**

Remember, Khorne doesn't hate Tzeentch. Tzeentch is the magician.

Khorne hates Slaanesh as his opposite number.

Khorne hates showing off and showboating more than he hates magic.

**Rune Stonegrinder**

Fluff wise Khorne can summon thier own deamons. Its not specifically a psychic ability...I think it only translates into the game that way.

**Ailaros**

Furyou Miko wrote:Khorne hates showing off and showboating more than he hates magic.

Lol. Just don't use magic to be FABULOUS, and you're all right.

Anyways, my own justification for khorne psykers comes from this thread:

Ailaros wrote:
So, Khorne doesn't explicitly sanction psykers (though he doesn't explicitly bar them either - that's only a World Eater thing), which means that if you're going to run a sorcerer in a CSM army devoted to khorne, you'd have to use book powers. Of course, they can only draw from three different fields and one of them (pyromancy) is both bad and not terribly fluffy for anything, which leaves just the options of biomancy or telepathy. Which of these two would be more fluffy for a khorne army?

Biomancy:

Cons: Khrone is all about being the best you can be. Buffing your strength or speed, or worse, weakening your opponent, isn't a test of how good you are, it's a test of how powerful your magic is. It's blatant cheating, and doesn't really test who is the best warrior. It's the same reason ancient Terran baseball games didn't allow steroids. I mean, this really is the stereotypical example of the weak winning by trickery, not by skill at arms.

Pros: That all sounds like a bunch of bitching and whining by someone who isn't strong enough to use the power of the warp. Complaining about what is "fair" and what isn't is the purview of the weak and pitiful. I used MY abilities to win the fight. If you don't have those abilities, then tough - you're just making excuses for your weakness of psychic power. Plus, if you REALLY wanted it to be a "fair" fight, then you'd do all your fighting naked and without weapons. Don't tell me that augmenting my strength with iron arm is a crutch when you're running around with a powerfist, or that I'm somehow "cheating" when I use endurance to make myself more durable when you're wearing power armor.

Telepathy:

Cons: This is just magic, pure and simple. Instead of fighting, man to man, you're casting spells on them from afar and beating them without even really fighting them. Yeah, you look like a real strong guy using puppet master to have your opponents hurt themselves so that you don't have to. You look really brave by making yourself invisible. There is no game without risk of loss. You're not competing, you're just pointlessly slaughtering - something that Khorne himself more than frowns on.

Pros: This is actually the perfect showcase of using the warp in a way favorable to a warp entity. I mean, if you cast hallucination, there's a chance that the squad goes into a blind rage and hacks themselves apart in a bloody melee. How is that not Khorne? Plus, most of the rest of the abilities are there to make sure that a proper competition happens in the first place, either getting our own warriors stuck in, or weeding out the riffraff. Khorne demands worthy sacrifices won against the best by the best. Nothing does this better than telepathy powers.

Of course, just because khorne doesn't murderously hate psykers doesn't mean he'll like them. You still can't give a sorcerer a mark of khorne, for example.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that khorne hates them. It could just meant that khorne refuses to reward sorcery, and so there are no khorne sorcerers because sorcerers who want the blessings of the gods will naturally move on to someone else if they start worshipping khorne by mistake.

**Void__Dragon**

Furyou Miko wrote:
Remember, Khorne doesn't hate Tzeentch. Tzeentch is the magician.

Khorne hates Slaanesh as his opposite number.

Khorne hates showing off and showboating more than he hates magic.

No, he hates Tzeentch (And to a lesser extent everything else) too, just not as much as Slaanesh.

Can anyone find me an example of a Khornate psyker that wasn't written by Dan Abnett or Relic? Because I know Black Crusade explicitly forbids Khornate characters from using their psychic powers. And no psyker can get the Mark of Khorne.

**Psienesis**

Sorcerers aren't psykers. They're wizards. You can also be both a Psyker and a Sorcerer.

Also.... Khorne hates everything and everyone. It's kind of his thing. If you aren't out there shedding blood, killing and dying, then the Blood God has no use for you. And if you are out there shedding blood, killing and dying, then it is but a matter of time before your skull is added to the pile.

**Ailaros**

Void__Dragon wrote:

Khorne hates Slaanesh as his opposite number.

Khorne hates showing off and showboating more than he hates magic.

No, he hates Tzeentch

But nurgle hates Tzeentch even more, and yet he has sorcerers. Heck, even the named nurgle chaos lord is also a psyker.

**BrotherOfBone**

Khorne hates psykers that use psychic powers instead of combat, not psychic powers at all.

**Ashiraya**

Void__Dragon wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote:
Remember, Khorne doesn't hate Tzeentch. Tzeentch is the magician.

Khorne hates Slaanesh as his opposite number.

Khorne hates showing off and showboating more than he hates magic.

No, he hates Tzeentch (And to a lesser extent everything else) too, just not as much as Slaanesh.

Can anyone find me an example of a Khornate psyker that wasn't written by Dan Abnett or Relic? Because I know Black Crusade explicitly forbids Khornate characters from using their psychic powers. And no psyker can get the Mark of Khorne.

Khornate sorcery is used in McNeill's Ultramarines series.

**Void__Dragon**

I said psykers.

Not sorcerers. There is a difference.

**Ashiraya**

Sorry.

In that case, nevermind.

**Bludbaff**

Ailaros wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:

Khorne hates Slaanesh as his opposite number.

Khorne hates showing off and showboating more than he hates magic.

No, he hates Tzeentch

But nurgle hates Tzeentch even more, and yet he has sorcerers. Heck, even the named nurgle chaos lord is also a psyker.

I don't know that Nurgle hates Tzeentch more than Khorne does, he just hates the other less than he hates Tzeentch. I mean, I'd figure Nurgle hates Tzeentch at a power level of around 100, then maybe Slaanesh at 50 and Khorne at 40. Meanwhile, Khorne hates Tzeentch and Nurgle at 8999, and Slaanesh at power level 9001.

My preferred hatred pairing (verging on headcanon) is Nurgle vs. Slaanesh and Khorne vs. Tzeentch.

Even setting aside the question of magic, Tzeentch is all about patience, manipulation, and subtlety. Khorne is all about responding to the slightest whiff of any of those with a whirring chain-axe. Meanwhile, Slaanesh is about corruption of the mind, and Nurgle is about corruption of the body. To me, those pairings represent the differences in the philosophies of the dark gods better than the official ones.

**Ailaros**

If that were true, then why would khorne single out psykers?

All other chaos gods' soldiers use psykers. They also all use power armor, why not ban that? They also use rhinos and land raiders and terminators. I guess those have got to go because other gods approve of them.

Where does it end? Why should it only apply to psykers?

And slaanesh is a way better counter to khorne. There's good reason why space elves flee from the influence of slaanesh straight into gladiatorial combat and worshipping a murder god with blood-dripping hand.

**Wyzilla**

-pops a bloodvessel-

Dammit when are people going to understand that Khorne does NOT hate psykers. Unless Khorne likes his mortal worshippers blindly wandering around the warp, he'll firstly need to use and please Navigators to ensure the CSM warband of the day doesn't end up on the wrong side of a black hole or turn into a large smear on the face of a now decimated planet.

Khorne hates cowardice above all, as has been stated previously in this thread. His main grief with psykers is the use of powers to fry enemies safely from afar rather than use said powers to boost your martial prowess and implode the face of the nearest enemy with your fist.

**Psienesis**

Chaos Space Marines tend to not have Navigators, instead relying on Sorcerers and daemonic pacts to travel through the Warp unmolested.

Also, Navigators aren't Psykers. They're a genetic mutation bred into a special sub-race of humanity.

**Kavish**

Khorne is pain, Slaanesh is pleasure.
Tzeench is change, Nurgle is stagnation.

That's why I reckon they're opposites. I like the idea that Khorne just dislikes the cowardly use of psychic powers from afar. Can anyone point to any passages explaining this? I have codex chaos 2nd ed, C:CSM 3.5, 4 and 6th editions + chaos daemons 6th. I'll give them a look. I imagine 2nd ed will be of most use. C:CD 6th is likely to play it down (they wouldn't want us to avoid enemy god models now would they?).

**Kavish**

Here is what Codex Chaos 2nd ed has to say about it. Apparently it's magic he hates and not psykers. Who would have thought. It's been so long. Man I love this book! It's just bursting with flavour. Every rule and unit entry is full of fluffy rules to make it really feel Chaos-ey.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aargh! Having issues adding second picture. First time posting pics within thread.

**Ailaros**

Plus, demons can navigate through the warp. Psykers aren't strictly required to steer the ships around.

**Kavish**

Here's the other bit I was trying to post regarding Khorne's relationship with Tzeench and Slaanesh.

**Quarterdime**

Ailaros wrote:
Khorne doesn't straight hate psykers. This is a bad stereotype that hasn't aged well. Khorne is a warp entity, and so is his demons. The psykers aren't the problem, and never have been, it's only certain things you do with psychic powers that khorne doesn't like.

It's the world eaters who hate psykers. Take them out of the equation and most of the myth of khorne hating them evaporates.

QFT

**Psienesis**

Actually, he does straight hate psykers. In ye olden days, no creature with a Psy Rating could be a part of a Khornate Army. And any of your Khornate Chaos warband units that received a randomly-generated Gift of Chaos that granted Psychic Powers would "earn Khorne's great disfavor" if they ever used those gifts.

**Quarterdime**

Psienesis wrote:
Actually, he does straight hate psykers. In ye olden days, no creature with a Psy Rating could be a part of a Khornate Army. And any of your Khornate Chaos warband units that received a randomly-generated Gift of Chaos that granted Psychic Powers would "earn Khorne's great disfavor" if they ever used those gifts.

In other words, the guys in the army didn't like the psyker, and the psyker was fine as long as he didn't use his powers for cheap kills.