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So for the local tourney I decided it would be best to try out the ultras and here is what I came up with

Chapter master on bike w/ shield eternal, burning brand, bike, primarchs wrath, artificer armour - 295
Tiggiurus -165
Sternguard in pod with combi-melta- 365
Tac squad in pod w/ plasma gun combi plasma -200
Tac squad in pod with flamer, combi flamer-190
Cent devs w/ gravamps and omniscope-270

The CM runs around being a nuisance and drawing attention as the warlord while tiggy (hopefully) gives cents prescience or forewarning. (Or both)

Tac squads drop on obj. Near enemy lines.

Its a TAC list for the tourney


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Leaves me with 15 pts. Thinking about putting digital weapon on the CM... Or should I give a heavy weapon to the tacs? Like a HB. Or LC to stern Sgt.

To be honest it looks a total mess. Tac squads are poor if you've got a Bike CM you shouldn't be taking tactical squads at all. Tiggy needs support to be truly worth it though he's good with Grav Cents, though if you're running that you probably want more.

Drop Pods are an all or nothing choice. If you're taking them you need lots for the Alphastrike though intercepting Tau have largely curtailed the effectiveness of that choice. Lets look at that sternguard squad it drops in and fires 5 meltas at 2 targets. Then it dies. Will it earn its points back with those shots? Unless your opponent has 2 Landraiders close enough together for you to melta both then no. Even if he does you're quite likely to fail to get a kill with at least 1 combat squad

You've got the CM on his own where he'll just get killed by volume fire and he's sucking up a 5th of the entire armies points. He doesn't need the burning blade with the SE a Thunder hammer is cheaper and generally a better option. If you dropped the bike, the BB and Primarchs Wrath you save a bucket load of points and have a 3++ tank to sit at the front of the Cents as they have no invun. Also you're points are off on the Cents should be 260 with that config.

Basically you've got elements from 3 different lists. You have almost a DP list, almost a Gravstar and a 300 point HQ that wants to be in a bike list meaning your army is pulling in different directions and contains no duel threat or redundancy. You need to decide what you want the list as a whole to be. The I can help you decide on what to include. But your list needs to start with a central idea and then only select units that support that goal. Anything you expect to do heavy lifting in your list needs to either be a nigh unkillable deathstar or you need two or more of it (duel threat). Then you need to ensure you can deal with any type of opposition (flyers, FMCs, MCs, tanks, heavy infantry, hordes) in multiple ways or with multiple units (redundancy). Then you just try to streamline your choices and units and drop any unnecesary equipment.


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To be honest it looks a total mess. Tac squads are poor if you've got a Bike CM you shouldn't be taking tactical squads at all. Tiggy needs support to be truly worth it though he's good with Grav Cents, though if you're running that you probably want more.

Drop Pods are an all or nothing choice. If you're taking them you need lots for the Alphastrike though intercepting Tau have largely curtailed the effectiveness of that choice. Lets look at that sternguard squad it drops in and fires 5 meltas at 2 targets. Then it dies. Will it earn its points back with those shots? Unless your opponent has 2 Landraiders close enough together for you to melta both then no. Even if he does you're quite likely to fail to get a kill with at least 1 combat squad

You've got the CM on his own where he'll just get killed by volume fire and he's sucking up a 5th of the entire armies points. He doesn't need the burning blade with the SE a Thunder hammer is cheaper and generally a better option. If you dropped the bike, the BB and Primarchs Wrath you save a bucket load of points and have a 3++ tank to sit at the front of the Cents as they have no invun. Also you're points are off on the Cents should be 260 with that config.

Basically you've got elements from 3 different lists. You have almost a DP list, almost a Gravstar and a 300 point HQ that wants to be in a bike list meaning your army is pulling in different directions and contains no duel threat or redundancy. You need to decide what you want the list as a whole to be. The I can help you decide on what to include. But your list needs to start with a central idea and then only select units that support that goal. Anything you expect to do heavy lifting in your list needs to either be a nigh unkillable deathstar or you need two or more of it (duel threat). Then you need to ensure you can deal with any type of opposition (flyers, FMCs, MCs, tanks, heavy infantry, hordes) in multiple ways or with multiple units (redundancy). Then you just try to streamline your choices and units and drop any unnecesary equipment.

Its a TAC with multiple threats. All depending on enemy comp. This works best as a first turn army yes, but its not a bad 2nd turn.

If I can manage first turn i will have 3 large threats on the table for the enemy. Sternguards squaded. Which even after blowing the meltas are quite dangerous.

The grav cents, which will be killing lots of stuff.

And the CM bike that will have a T2 charge.

If the CM sucks most or all of his shooting then that's another turn for my cents and stern to rip stuff up.

I see the thoughts on putting him with the cents though I'd keep the other wargear unless I wanted a dreadnaught somewhere. Which I might, but then I'm just giving something for his anti-tank to shoot out.

The cents will have a 4+ cover most of the time.though.

Also- don't underestimate a tac squad. Took out a HT through overwatch. Sure he only had one wound but hey.

This is a reduces list of my 2k list that actually has bikes with the CM and another stern guard unit in a Pod.

(Let's face it, bikes aren't much better than tacs anymore unless your white scars)


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(Also, 5 meltas with UM tactical doctrine should pop anything save a wave serpent. Or I can fire all 10 at some FMC or wraithknight)

IMO it doesn't matter if they make all there points back, as long as they take out the most dangerous thing to my army. (Or 2 most)

Bikes are much better than tac squads. More mobile and 2 special weapons and relentless thrown in too.

As for melta popping ANYTHING. You have a 7:9 chance to hit 21:36 chance to pen and 1:3 chance to kill with explodes. 5 shots results in 3.89 hits 2.27 pens and 0.75 Explodes against AV14 so on average on every 2 turn 1 strikes you make you should kill 3 things with the 4 attempts. So yes you'll do well quite often but you'd fail to kill one of your targets on average every other game.

I just don't see enough threat to be honest. The Cents are struggling to hit turn 1 and sometimes maybe even T2 whilst you're drip feeding expensive units. Against competitive lists you'll struggle.

If your going to spend those kind of points on a lone Chapter Master, I would just take Calgar and put him in one of the pod units.

Better chance to get a Warlord trait that works for the army your facing, gives an additional use of Ultra's Chapter Tactics and lets you auto pass/fail morale tests.

With ym tactics nt stern reroll 50% of the misses. (Theoretically)

But I see the point on cents

Actually considering dropping them for another sternsquad with plasma (7-8stern) for MC hunting or light AV (wave serpents) or more melta.

More sternguard in a pod with tiggy is a better idea, now that tiggy can cast after coming in.

I think that's the best. This way I can give them first turn hide my CM on bike in LOS blocking cover, pop up and be like. Sternguard in yo face. But my CM be in yo face next turn too.

(And let's face it, with that loadout.... He's a monster a swarmlord would fear)


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Only down side is its only 4_ pods at 1500 :/

I included tactical doctrine hence the 7:9 chance to hit rather than the 2:3 normally.

More pods would better.

The Swarmlord is I6 he'd fear the TH wielding CM more. That's why I suggest the TH. The Burning Blade allows you to strike at I and try to kill your opponent first. But with 4 wounds EW and a 3++ not a lot is going to kill you in a single round. Most of the big bads (like Swarmy DPs even Abaddon) are going to need 2 rounds to finish you. However all those guys are I6+ so with the burning blade you go 2nd and then die before you strike round 2. With the TH you do more damage turn 1 (as you're wounding T6 on a 2+) and then fighting at the same time every round after them. Worst case you are mutual destruction. It's not like he's even running with Honour Guard or Hammernators trying to get some kills in before the squad strikes. Save yourself 25 points and have a better CM by taking a hammer on him.

Deep, some reason I thought the CM was I6. Eh. Then you are right.


On a side note, sternguard are one unit that cost less for BA. A full BA stern with combj weapons are 335, while C:SM are 365, haha.


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Revised list-_
CM on bike w/ thunder hammer, arty armour, shield eternal primarchs wrath-270
Tiggy-165
10 man stern in pod w/ combi melta- combat squadin
7man stern w/ combi plasma for MC or light tank hunting. (Or 2+ save hunting) tiggy goes here in pod
10 man tac unit w/ plasma gun, vet Sgt w/ power weapon combi plas in pod
10 man squad in pod w/ flamer vet Sgt w/ combi flamer, power weapon,

Thoughts ?

Actually considering dropping in with devastator doc for full BS overwatch specially on aasaulty armies so the tac squads get fu advantage of the tac doctrine.



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Or, I could drop the plamsa stern and take 2 5 man tac squads with plasma instead....


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OR.

Calgar+7honor guard in pod with chapter banner - 520
Tiggy-165
Stern w/8 combi melts, two melts in pod-365_
9 tacs with plasma gun, combi plas vet Sgtw/ power weapon in pod-212(tiggy here)
5 tacs w/ plasma gun combi plasma sgt in pod-130
5 tacs w/ plasma gun combi plasma Sgt in pod-130.

Tiggy, calgar, and stern arrive T1. Others T2.

No honor guard in a pod, either LR or nothing. Stick with sternguard in a pod.

Why?

Arbiter wrote:No honor guard in a pod, either LR or nothing. Stick with sternguard in a pod.

raiden wrote:Why?

Because Honor Guard are primarily an assault oriented unit. Drop Pods are for shooting oriented units and not assault.

So being in a Land Raider gets them where they need o be, with solid protection along the way, and let's thm assault out of it.

So when it comes to being in a Pod, Sternguard > Honor Guard.

Except I have nothing in my army that can handle CC, actually can give then some relic blades and still get 3 attacks normally. They also draw attention from my smaller stern squads and tax's since tiggy and Calgar are both in there.

Don't give Honourguard relic blades ever. For 10 points you are worse model for model against amything with an armour different to 3+ against 3+ save guys you are only marginally better point for point.

10 HG with Power Mauls on the charge against marines 40 attacks, 20 hits, 16.67 wounds 5.56 dead marines

7 HG with Relic blades, 21 attacks, 10.5 hits, 8.75 kills

Generally you'll do enough with Mauls (mix in 3-4 axes to help against 2+ saves), chuck prescience on them and the numbers would be 8.33 kills for Mauls and 13 for RBs. However change the save to ANY other value or give an invun to the unit and the Mauls do better and are more survivable as you get more wounds.

 raiden wrote:
Except I have nothing in my army that can handle CC, actually can give then some relic blades and still get 3 attacks normally. They also draw attention from my smaller stern squads and tax's since tiggy and Calgar are both in there.

There is a issue with your list design process.

Space Marines don't need any of their own CC units to efficiently handle opponent CC units. C:SM do it much better via shooting then trying to engage in HtH themselves.

Cept if I drop pod in on any assault type army. I will be in trouble without some CC unit. That aside I won't be out shooting tau, AM, eldar or the likes even with my alpha strike.

 raiden wrote:
Cept if I drop pod in on any assault type army. I will be in trouble without some CC unit. That aside I won't be out shooting tau, AM, eldar or the likes even with my alpha strike.

One CC unit won't save you from an assault oriented army. Its a waste of points, to be blunt.

You wont out shoot those armies from across the board, thats true.

That's why your in pods.

Your not walking/driving up to them over a series of turns. Your in their face turn one and on with the added benefit that the average Marine is to much for Tau/AM to handle in HtH. Not to mention most of those armies you listed don't do well when 40-50+ Marines land in rapid fire range and go to town on them turn 1.

Being Ultramarines, you can choose to have all your Tac squads re--rolling to hit when they land on turn 1 (if its advantageous). So just stack up on Plasma/Melta guns and Combi's for the Sarges, use combat squads to your advantage, and you can do serious damage to multiple threat types from the get go. Not to mention that if you go second, you deny them an entire round of shooting.

Unless your playing with Lords Of War, they won't have the tools to "delete" that many Marines before your subsequent waves start showing up.

Pod Ultra's are one of the most solid, and because of their Chapter Tactics, flexible TAC armies you can get.

Your not walking/driving up to them over a series of turns. Your in their face turn one and on with the added benefit that the average Marine is to much for Tau/AM to handle in HtH. Not to mention most of those armies you listed don't do well when 40-50+ Marines land in rapid fire range and go to town on them turn 1. 

A word of caution. Tau murderise Pod lists. Your marines will be dead before they ever pull a trigger...