Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've been thinking about this a lot..
All across the internet 1000's of articles are written about how 40k is broken and such a terrible game and I typically think to myself, shut up and quit then, because you are ruining my good time.

Well let's stay on point here...
We know what people don't like and think is broken..

Why don't we look at all the great things about this game, that obviously keep us coming back for more, has to offer. Things like..
Best Conversions we have seen..
Most exciting/closest game.
Craziest unlucky streak.
Best themed army.
Favorite army, race, story.
So many things

I doubt many will jump on this thread because there is nothing to fight about but all the games and stories and fantastic models are what have kept me playing these games for over 25 years and made it easy to look past the parts that are broken because at the end of the day, or should I say game, the good FAR outweighs the bad.
That's why I still play.

I love the fact its so open and easy to mess with. Just casually change whatever or build whatever and there will be a use for it. 40K is one of the few games I see where someone can get green stuff and a bunch of bits, make something and have a use for it while nobody is a pain about it.

Just the freedom to create and change at will is such a great thing about this game that its about the only thing keeping me playing. I can use a cool slug as my astropath and people will think its cool. Not many games really have this as all the other games I watch and play in generally have some unspoken agreement that you use the models for the unit. In 40k (for the most part) its take whatever do whatever.

Thats why I like it anyways. Its perfect for groups of friends who are casual.

I'm going to pre-empt things a little here and ask that people make an effort to stick to the topic. There is no need to bash those who hold a different opinion to your own - whichever side of the fence you find yourself on.

If you have something positive to contribute, go nuts.

- Removed by insaniak. It wasn't just a suggestion. -

I have said a lot of bad things about the way things are going. I mean everyone always complains about pricing, but lately they left the normal realm and went into ridiculousness,.

But this is about the good:

I fell in love with this game/hobby almost 25 years ago. It combined my love of painting and assembling models, and playing games. I'd have a hard time thinking about not having 40k in my life since I started in junior high and it has been that long.

No matter what, if you enjoy the hobby, you can keep interested even if you play very little.
The background is great.The universe has depth.
Despite the horrible models GW does put out sometimes, there are probably more incredible ones than bad.
The game is never dull, it is open ended, and as a casual gamer, a lot of fun.
As a casual gamer, I can use rules that are not edition specific, so house rules win out over tourny rules if we don't like them.
If GW shut down, I would still be able to play. Forever. I don't need new rules every three years.
The fact you can try so many combinations, makes every game different and interesting.
You can easily make campaigns and scenarios.
The "hobby" has elevated to art for some people. It is amazing how good some of these people are at.
Every game can tell a story, I just find it more likely if not in a tourney.
Making scenery is also a blast.
It teaches you to view the world in miniature.
My kids see an old rusty water tower, and find beauty in the "weathering".

 Gorgrimm wrote:
I have said a lot of bad things about the way things are going. I mean everyone always complains about pricing, but lately they left the normal realm and went into ridiculousness,.

But this is about the good:

I fell in love with this game/hobby almost 25 years ago. It combined my love of painting and assembling models, and playing games. I'd have a hard time thinking about not having 40k in my life since I started in junior high and it has been that long.

No matter what, if you enjoy the hobby, you can keep interested even if you play very little.
The background is great.The universe has depth.
Despite the horrible models GW does put out sometimes, there are probably more incredible ones than bad.
The game is never dull, it is open ended, and as a casual gamer, a lot of fun.
As a casual gamer, I can use rules that are not edition specific, so house rules win out over tourny rules if we don't like them.
If GW shut down, I would still be able to play. Forever. I don't need new rules every three years.
The fact you can try so many combinations, makes every game different and interesting.
You can easily make campaigns and scenarios.
The "hobby" has elevated to art for some people. It is amazing how good some of these people are at.
Every game can tell a story, I just find it more likely if not in a tourney.
Making scenery is also a blast.
It teaches you to view the world in miniature.
My kids see an old rusty water tower, and find beauty in the "weathering".

This right here. This is why I play, this is why I love this game. Couldn't care less about how the game used to be, always better to focus on the now.

If more players had this mentality and better model pricing we could bring in dozens more players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Throt wrote:
I've been thinking about this a lot..
All across the internet 1000's of articles are written about how 40k is broken and such a terrible game and I typically think to myself, shut up and quit then, because you are ruining my good time.

Well let's stay on point here...
We know what people don't like and think is broken..

Why don't we look at all the great things about this game, that obviously keep us coming back for more, has to offer. Things like..
Best Conversions we have seen..
Most exciting/closest game.
Craziest unlucky streak.
Best themed army.
Favorite army, race, story.
So many things

I doubt many will jump on this thread because there is nothing to fight about but all the games and stories and fantastic models are what have kept me playing these games for over 25 years and made it easy to look past the parts that are broken because at the end of the day, or should I say game, the good FAR outweighs the bad.
That's why I still play.

I play because I love the story and the models bring it to life for me. I also write campaigns and my own narratives for every fight so it gets me even more involved.

I love the background. It is crazy, grimdark fun and I love it.

I love the Imperial Guard because I love the idea of regular joes battling against impossible monsters to save humanity.

The good stuff! I guess I am enjoying it because of the friends I play with. Like minded enough that a Penitent Engine rolling 3 sixes for saves against quite a few star cannons is a hoot for laughter on both sides.

And the storyline behind each army is a joy to read. I find it easy to just pore over the fluff and story behind each of the units in any codex. I must admit I haven't tried looking up other games to compare the stories but somehow was never inspired by the overall story. By just a quick summary of the Age of Apostasy, it made me want to read more about what happened and so started my journey into playing 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The opportunity to re-enact great battles or to pretend that your game was a skirmish in a particular conflict makes the whole feelng more real and exciting. It's not like a chess game where each game doesn't have a fleshed out story.

The Shrine of Chaos.

OP, have all of the Exalts! This is the kind of thread worth having!

What makes 40k so great:

The community, from the in-depth discussions you get in tactics forums to the friendly, supportive and inspiring painting boards, there's a far larger community for 40k that almost any other game, so there's always people to discuss/debate with and offer and give ideas.

The models are awesome, and what you can do with them is equally great. There are some games with better models, even in plastic (Malifaux springs to mind, those minis are mindblowing), but the sheer potential for conversion and modelling/painting madness in 40k is unraivlalled. Just look at the dozens of great Inq28 blogs to see what I mean.

The rules are fine for what they are; they give you guidelines for telling a great story and having fun with your mates, which is ultimately what they set out to do. So no complaints here.

The background is thoroughly immersive, expansive and fascinating; I know I've read a lot of it, but there's always more to discover.

40k (and other miniature games, of course) is a lot of fun, both for the gaming aspect, and the painting/modeling etc.
It is just a great hobby.
The reason that there is so much negativity is a lot more about human nature than about problems with the game.
Take the news media for example. A good, uplifting story may get some airtime, but the bad stories seem to get a lot more.
Most of the 'problems' in 40k are things that can be easily 'house ruled' away. I realize they this is not so simple for tournament players, but, oh well. If you are going to do anything competitively, you are going to have to constantly adapt and improve.
Bottom line: people always have complained and they always will. Don't ever let it detract from your enjoyment of the hobby.

As others have said, the background is one of the best in science fiction, possibly the best (yes, I hold it over even Star Wars) and the Horus Heresy novels are just fantastic; I've read over twenty of them and am thrilled that Black Library continues to pump them out.

I love the minis. I don't care what anyone says, GW do make some of the best mass market minis available. Yes, they are not the cheapest, and yes you can get some very very nice high end minis from other small companies, but I love the look, the feel and the constant quality of the plastics they produce and the details of FWs minis is loverly. If only FW could improve QC. Some of the design choices have been a bit iffy, but as much as anything that is a personal choice.

I like the fact that you can now do what you want with rules to support it.

I love the background and that the background is a living growing thing, independent of the game, not simply something created to hang a rules set on.

I love when my opponent throws every melta and lascannon shot at my dread knight and I make half a dozen 5++ saves, then take four wounds to bolter fire and fail every single 2+ armor save.

The internet has a tendency to be all about the sky falling and inducing pessimism. Just try googling "I have a headache" and spend the next week worrying about how you probably have brain tumor.

The actual game is as it's always been. If you have a friendly community that suits you, you'll enjoy it. If your community is less-than-friendly or otherwise doesn't suit your preferences, you'll probably not enjoy it as much.

I still love the game. I love the various different combos you can do and the variety of army lists and playstyles on the table. The only things I dislike are Unbound lists and Lords of War in lower point games, but I'm lucky in that if I say I'm not interested in playing against that, I won't be looked down on.

 Gorgrimm wrote:
No matter what, if you enjoy the hobby, you can keep interested even if you play very little.
The background is great.The universe has depth.
Despite the horrible models GW does put out sometimes, there are probably more incredible ones than bad.
The game is never dull, it is open ended, and as a casual gamer, a lot of fun.
As a casual gamer, I can use rules that are not edition specific, so house rules win out over tourny rules if we don't like them.
If GW shut down, I would still be able to play. Forever. I don't need new rules every three years.
The fact you can try so many combinations, makes every game different and interesting.
You can easily make campaigns and scenarios.
The "hobby" has elevated to art for some people. It is amazing how good some of these people are at.
Every game can tell a story, I just find it more likely if not in a tourney.
Making scenery is also a blast.
It teaches you to view the world in miniature.
My kids see an old rusty water tower, and find beauty in the "weathering".

I was gonna type something up, but instead, I'll just give this an Exalt.

 Araenion wrote:
The internet has a tendency to be all about the sky falling and inducing pessimism. Just try googling "I have a headache" and spend the next week worrying about how you probably have brain tumor.

The actual game is as it's always been. If you have a friendly community that suits you, you'll enjoy it. If your community is less-than-friendly or otherwise doesn't suit your preferences, you'll probably not enjoy it as much.

I still love the game. I love the various different combos you can do and the variety of army lists and playstyles on the table. The only things I dislike are Unbound lists and Lords of War in lower point games, but I'm lucky in that if I say I'm not interested in playing against that, I won't be looked down on.

I agree with this. To the OP, I dare you to say anything positive here and not get dogpiled by mass negativity...

This is dakka, you will never find a more wretched hive of disgruntled complainers.

Sadly I don't have much good to say about the game itself, it feels like it was written by a bunch of monkeys.

40k in general, I love the background and the armies. I also like the aesthetic of many of the armies. DKOK, Cadians, Tyranids, Orks, Eldar, Tau, Necrons, I just really like the aesthetic of them all.

Unfortunately the game itself feels less like a game and more an excuse to line up all your models, the frustrating thing is that it could be a good game AND be an excuse to line up your models. It's not narrative enough to be a narrative game and not concise and balanced enough to be a good tactical game.

But the universe, the background and the aesthetic that the developers have created is wonderful.

 Gunzhard wrote:
I agree with this. To the OP, I dare you to say anything positive here and not get dogpiled by mass negativity...

This is dakka, you will never find a more wretched hive of disgruntled complainers.

Haha! It's not all bad, is it? There is a lot you can learn here and chat with likeminded people. The only two forums that should be avoided if you don't like negativity is YMDC (and only certain threads, the forum itself is incredibly useful if you come to it with a specific question, just don't stay too long) and General Discussion. And the irony of writing this on General Discussion forum isn't lost on me.

Good:
- Large breadth of material and models: a fully realized universe to "play in".
- Based in a science fiction setting so is rather open ended for adding to the universe lore (there are no limits!).
- A "culture" of sorts, a rather immersive experience as a hobby (a unified experience with shared reference material and terminology = belonging = passion for the game).
- Produced models are of reasonable quality due to a maturity of process and when errors do happen are easily replaced.
- At it's present incarnation it is a "sandbox" game where imagined or a re-creation from a book or source material can be setup as a game.
- More of a mass role playing game where characters and "impressive" formations (gods of war, fortifications, massed infantry or vehicles) can be fielded giving a strong visual appeal.
- The game is "unbalanced" which can allow for exciting moments. Perfectly balanced games tend to be very predictable which can equal boring.
- There are few instances of "certainty" so the gambling loving elements in us have a place.
- This hobby extends world-wide, there is usually some place within a couple hours drive to play.
- The entire imagery / media / IP is completely controlled by one company (unlike say historical) which completely determines all aspects of the game (unified "vision").
- Multitude of passionate employees producing product for the company, has a touch of "made by fans for the fans".

Bad
- Due to the science-fiction topic it has a perceived lack of "legitimacy / acceptance" of historical wargaming from the general public (compared to say, the high acceptance of train sets)
- The game is "unbalanced" which has made it exceedingly difficult to try to shoe-horn it into "competitive" game play.
- The entire imagery / media / IP is completely controlled by one company (unlike say historical) which completely determines all aspects of the game (stagnate, change direction, trim, re-write, distribution methods).
- Single source for ALL aspects of game = monopoly = no competition = priced to what the market can bear.
- A "culture" of sorts, a rather immersive experience as a hobby (a unified experience with shared reference material and terminology = differing opinions of interpretation = passionate when in disagreement).
- Management is human (and in control of creative and logistics direction), makes mistakes and seems to have chosen to avoid engagement from customer-base: source of revenue is feeling snubbed, management is progressively getting "out of touch" with customer due to chosen isolation.
- Management MUST cater to stock holders which may run contrary to successful product sales (seems counterintuitive but no good way of writing it!).

Could 40k right now be better? Resounding yes.
Can I play it and have fun? Resounding yes.

I am sure there are many points to be made but what I tried to point out is that for each "good" point there is a "bad" that comes with it... the yin with the yang.
We may just have to accept both elements in order for the game to be whole.

I disagree with the premise that you only hear the bad - there's a lot of good said here on dakka.

- I like GWs sprues lately, they come packed with options and are good quality.
- Their base and shade ranges are very good.
- The 40k setting is the most enjoyable setting I've played in, and I hope we get a lot more high quality video games in it.

 Yonan wrote:
I disagree with the premise that you only hear the bad - there's a lot of good said here on dakka.

- I like GWs sprues lately, they come packed with options and are good quality.
- Their base and shade ranges are very good.
- The 40k setting is the most enjoyable setting I've played in, and I hope we get a lot more high quality video games in it.

Especially more console games - I found Space Marine to be quite good and very satisfying.

Also, I like the fact that there are SOOO many weapons and special rules (which I'm aware alot of people do not like due to balance issues).

Of the 5 or so games my regular gaming group plays, 40k is what we play for "over-the-top-sci-fi" games. We don't expect perfect balance from a game with a ga-jillion different armies, weapons, and special rules, so we're not overly dissappointed when we run into plainly obvious "Round 2 you're tabled" mismatches....we just don't play those again, because they're not fun for the winner or loser.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Araenion wrote:
The internet has a tendency to be all about the sky falling and inducing pessimism. Just try googling "I have a headache" and spend the next week worrying about how you probably have brain tumor.

The actual game is as it's always been. If you have a friendly community that suits you, you'll enjoy it. If your community is less-than-friendly or otherwise doesn't suit your preferences, you'll probably not enjoy it as much.

I still love the game. I love the various different combos you can do and the variety of army lists and playstyles on the table. The only things I dislike are Unbound lists and Lords of War in lower point games, but I'm lucky in that if I say I'm not interested in playing against that, I won't be looked down on.

I agree with this. To the OP, I dare you to say anything positive here and not get dogpiled by mass negativity...

This is dakka, you will never find a more wretched hive of disgruntled complainers.

It isn't that bad.

Though I do always find the humor in posts that complain about complaining!

 Alpharius wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Araenion wrote:
The internet has a tendency to be all about the sky falling and inducing pessimism. Just try googling "I have a headache" and spend the next week worrying about how you probably have brain tumor.

The actual game is as it's always been. If you have a friendly community that suits you, you'll enjoy it. If your community is less-than-friendly or otherwise doesn't suit your preferences, you'll probably not enjoy it as much.

I still love the game. I love the various different combos you can do and the variety of army lists and playstyles on the table. The only things I dislike are Unbound lists and Lords of War in lower point games, but I'm lucky in that if I say I'm not interested in playing against that, I won't be looked down on.

I agree with this. To the OP, I dare you to say anything positive here and not get dogpiled by mass negativity...

This is dakka, you will never find a more wretched hive of disgruntled complainers.

It isn't that bad.

Though I do always find the humor in posts that complain about complaining!

Which one might argue - helps to prove the point.

And the '40K General' at least, IS that bad... the modeling/painting forums are quite the opposite however.

 Throt wrote:


Why don't we look at all the great things about this game, that obviously keep us coming back for more, has to offer. Things like..

...Craziest unlucky streak.

Uhm...

Serioulsy though, what is to be kept in mind is that internet forums do not reflect the 40k playership as a whole, far from it. On about every topic, you will find more negative posts on the internet as it serves as a vent for people and you are more likely to look for people agreeing with your negative views because you want to make sure that you are right and the problem is you.

This being said, 40k is still a great game on itself because of the miniatures. The rules are pretty bad, no doubt, and GW certainly is a terrible company that hates its customers. The miniatures, for a good part look good however and due to the very high price, you are more likely to stick to the game because you don't want to "waste" your money.

Buuuuut, the rules are merely giving you a framework to work in. Anyone who sits down with a few friends and has a game of 40k can't tell me they did not have a good time. It still is a lot of fun to play. WAAC players are anther problem, but alas, those players are prevalent in pretty much all games so just avoid them. 40k still is a great beer&pretzels game and it's cool to have fun with. But if you have fun, do you feel like "Dude, I totally have to share this with all of my friends!"? We certainly don't - we just enjoy having a good time

So in short, 40k still is a great game. The rules are too expensive as they have very little substance and are poorly written, but then again, it's the internet and there are ways around it.

In the spirit of good will:

- I think GWs development of 40k as an immense expanded universe is actually a remarkable feat. Does it surpass Star Wars and Star Trek in breadth and depth of background fluff?
- I like the sibling systems of WHFB and 40K which share similar traits but in different settings.
- The imagery of 40k always inspires me, there's some amazing artwork for it - more so lately I think.
- Chainswords

Hmmmmm....
The models
aannndd the fluff.

And bare naked ladies. With Eviscerators. Gotta have them all!

What is drawing this newcomer to the game?

Variety within each faction: I was originally gonna pick up Hordes, yet after reading a bit into the rulebook...well, before I got too far, I was struck with just how little variety there was within each faction. Sure, the same can be said in any game: a Tactical Space Marine is a Tactical Space Marine, just as a and Troll Impaler is a Troll Impaler. But where the individual factions within Hordes have a distinct look - tartan pattern aside, ya seen one Trollblood, ya pretty much seen 'em all - the factions in WH40K have their own look. Walk into an FLGS, walk up to a 40K tabletop and look at the board and you can see Ultramarines and Salamanders, White Scars and Dark Angels, each with a distinct look, each playing slightly differently even when they are fielding the exact same troops.

Scale: I'm an RPGer, so an important aspect of a war-game is "can I get dual use out of these war-game minis?" With WarmaHordes, yeah I can use the few minis I bought for the game...but they are of a larger scale than any other minis I own. A Warjack set I picked up cheap includes a Dwarf Warcaster... who will now be the burliest Human in my RPG collection. But next sci-fi RPG I run, I'll have tons of armored soldiers ready to face off against the stalwart heroes.

Holes in the history: The 40K fluff has massive, massive holes in it...and that makes it perfect for a newcomer to make their place in the overall story! With 10,000 years since Horus went naughty, the writers have given us the high points, but there are huge areas that are unknown in the history, areas we the players can write for ourselves. When I was choosing which army to start play with, I hit the Games Workshop site. There was a push for the Legion of the Damned. Now, up to that point, I was thinking something like Orks would suit me, but the look of LotD struck me, so I read up a bit, and little bits about them that were written (the quest by the Ordo Chronos, the Battle for the Phalanx) coupled together in my mind with tidbits from elsewhere (the complete disappearance of the Ordo Chronos) to forge a narrative as to just what happened to the Emperor's 'Time Cops'.

More, thanks to the vagaries of Warp travel, there are enough points where elements from the games past can coexist with elements from the present. You can mix 1st Edition markings in with your 7th Edition troops, as well as models from different editions, and the different appearances are perfectly acceptable. Means a frequently broke bastard like me to find good deals on old Rogue-Trader-era tactical Space Marines so I can field a decent sized army on the cheap! Also means the design/creative side of me can mix in some Pre-Vulkan XVIII Legion markings on my 40K Salamanders and still have them look right.

Simplicity and Complexity Combined: 40K is a massive, complex game, to be sure, but after hitting the GW shop for the first time when a game was running, and standing by for a few minutes and watching the simple shortcuts used, the game comes down to about 10-20 pages of rules + loads of special rules you only need to learn for your specific troops/weapons (usually). It's that 10-20 pages of rules that works for me. Once you have that, everything else is just 'write it down on your roster for quick reference' and you're golden (for when I play them, I printed out a cut-down LotD booklet - just the rules portion, with the active Damned Legion rules highlighted).

Well, that's all I can conjure up before I hit a meeting I'm due to attend, but I think those are the ones that truly matter for me.