Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Games Workshop, quality rules since....ah well.

I have no idea on how to resolve this. The attacker cannot allocate the attacks, the CCB owner must do it. Then...wound vs what? The CCB? The 2+ the entire model has? If the 2+, what happens to the wounds on a vehicle as they cannot take wounds?

Such a mess.

The only way I can see it working is when you allocate hits to the rider you treat him as infantry, and the chariot a vehicle.
Makes sense to me

The Chariot does not in fact remove infantry from the rider for what I can tell..... If it did you would have the issue of wounds not being able to be allocated.

Gravmyr,
Thank you for finding another problem with chariots....
I had assumed that the Chariot related Amendments to each Codex contained a Rule stating 'change the Unit Type to Chariot' but as I do tend to look at the Rule before posting I was able to verify this is not the case. The Errata all states that the original Model gains the 'Rider' title and nothing more, well some go to remove the Independent Character Special Rule but that is irrelevant. This creates the massive question of what it means for the original Unit Type, does being turned into the Rider remove all previous Unit Types to gain access to this 'Title' or does it simply do nothing more then allow the original Model to Trigger any Rider related Rules?

Leaning more towards them keeping the original Unit Type, which raises more questions then answers....

 Rapture wrote:
I think that it works like this:

If firing at a chariot unit, the firing unit makes a 'to Hit' pool which is then allocated to either the rider or the chariot itself by the chariot player's choice. Then, you would either roll to wound on a 2+ or to glance/immobilize on a 6 according to where the chariot's owners directed the hits.

If the hits are directed to the chariot, then wounds are no longer a possibility - only glances.

That is exactly how it would work. Once the owning player decides what part of the chariot (rider or vehicle) is hit, that is where you decide how to roll to wound/pen.

Also to add to this, As per the Chariot rule set (BRB Page) "Chariots and Immobilised Results: Chariots count Immobilised results from the Vehicle Damage table as Crew Stunned result instead."

It seems that GW is trying to shake things up, we have a Duel Profile Vehicle, and Now we have a Walker/Transport vehicle (New Orc Mek thingy)

How do you resolve a Wound against a vehicle? There are no Wound Characteristic in a Vehicle Profile.

How do you resolve Loss of a Hull Point against a Non-Vehicle Model? There is no Hull Point Characteristic in the Non-Vehicle Profile.

The Chariot Model (Regardless of which one taken) Will have both Hull points, and Wounds, on the Model. This is why the Chariot Rule set allows the Controlling player to decide which profile takes which hits, If not then a Chariot cannot ever be Destroyed as, Things that only cause Wounds Due to having no Str Value will never take away a Hull Point. and Hits that take away Hull points due to No Str value will never take away a Wound. Str 0 ap 2 cannot Wound a normal Model, and that is the Profile for a Graviton Weapon. It is the Rules for Gravitron Weapons that tell us how they affect both a Non-Vehicle Model, and a Vehicle Model.

There is no rule stating that a Wound can be converted into a Hull Point, or that a Hull Point can be converted into a Wound.

Those that are arguing that you can wound an the CCB (Chariot) ridden By an Overlord with a 2+ save with a 2+ when using a Graviton Weapon, are not reading how hits are allocated to the chariot model. If the TO is going to rule Grav wounds a Chariot on a 2+ then allocate those WOUNDS to the CCB(Which has none) and you have an immortal Killing machine.

Common sense prevails? As the owner of the chariot assigns the hits, resolving them against either the vehicle profile or the rider profile should be trivial.

Rather amusingly a chariot is pretty hard to kill now as you neef to eat through both the wounds and hull points. Wish my rhinos and razorbacks had that extra layer of protection.

Naw wrote:
Rather amusingly a chariot is pretty hard to kill now as you neef to eat through both the wounds and hull points. Wish my rhinos and razorbacks had that extra layer of protection.

The wording is that 1 of the two must reach 0 (0Wounds OR 0 HP), so unless you plan the To Hit stage perfectly, there is always a chance that the Hits allocated take the HP to 0 before a single wound is done or vice versa.

Once Wounds reach 0, you don't have to also go through the HP...?

Naw wrote:
Common sense prevails? As the owner of the chariot assigns the hits, resolving them against either the vehicle profile or the rider profile should be trivial.

Rather amusingly a chariot is pretty hard to kill now as you neef to eat through both the wounds and hull points. Wish my rhinos and razorbacks had that extra layer of protection.

Want your Rhinos to cost 250 points?

If they actually did something other than give first blood

So you want a durable Rhino with some more power for 250 points?
If only we had something like this.

Can it be taken as a Non-Dedicated Transport?
Wait, what the hell am I thinking, that is a version of a Land Raider....

From what I have read it looks like it would be played out like this:

-Fires grav-gun.

-Chariot player decided where the wound is allocated.

-If allocated to the rider it wounds on its Armour save.

-If allocated to a chariot it has to do its damage on a 6 as stated in the codex.

The big thing here is that vehicles (and the chariot is a vehicle, because it has a vehicle statline) do not sprout Armour Saves and therefore do no damage on the chariot on the 2+ people speak of.

If people complain about it, I wont stop them wounding on a 2+, after all if thats how people want to play it, it will deal no wounds as Chariots have no wounds... They have HP, which is a large difference.. and therefore have no effect upon the chariot as it is not going for the damage table rather than trying to get wounds off something that does not have wounds in the first place, so no damage dealt either way..

Sounds like some people are just exploiting for the sake of it..

Vehicles can have Armour Saves, often through secondary Rule interactions, it is just pointless for them to do so.
Unlike Invulnerability and Cover Saves, there is no clause stating Vehicles can use Armour Saves against Penetrating or Glancing Hits.

JinxDragon wrote:
Vehicles can have Armour Saves, often through secondary Rule interactions, it is just pointless for them to do so.
Unlike Invulnerability and Cover Saves, there is no clause stating Vehicles can use Armour Saves against Penetrating or Glancing Hits.

However in this case the Sept. Weave only affects the rider, as its an upgrade only for him, the chariot does not get this 2+ save..

This case, maybe, but was pointing out the line of "do not sprout Armour Saves" is incorrect.

JinxDragon wrote:
This case, maybe, but was pointing out the line of "do not sprout Armour Saves" is incorrect.

Could I see an example please? I know that vehicles can get invulnerable saves but never read anywhere, where they could get Armour saves..

 A GumyBear wrote:
People have been having various debates around my area now as to whether or not grav can effect both profiles of a Chariot. Specifically the Necron CCB has a 2+ armour save when taking Semp. Weave, so they feel that the 2+ armour save on a vehicle profile means 2+ to wound the rider regardless of where the hits are allocated. E.x. Hits are allocated to the Vehicle and they roll a 2+ it still wounds the rider, 6 still effects the chariot.

My problem with this interpretation is that A. you do not roll to wound vs. a vehicle profile and B. It again puts chariots in the useless category when all a grav unit needs to do is roll a 6 and they wound the rider and do damage to the chariot.

Debate away, I can post some of the arguments people have had at my club regarding this topic (some of them were posted onto our club's Facebook page.)

Edited for clarity*

You have your To Hit Pool, the owning player chooses which profile to resolve the hits against, proceed as normal.

If they choose the rider and it has a 2+ Save, then you Wound on a roll of a 2+.
If they choose the Charior you give it an Immobilized Result on a roll of a 6 which is promptly downgraded, but a Hull Point none the less.

RAW is extremely clear here.


Edit: But, if you are in the camp saying that the items purchases for the Rider's Profile carry over to the Chariot ie 2+ AS(Which is Pointless) and 3++(Phase Shifter) etc then yes, it would wound the Chariot on a roll of a 2+, but you cant wound a Chariot. It just anohter reason the way to tread Chariots etc is the separate profiles, which include either's particular wargear. If only the rules for Sempermental Weave and Phase shifter didn't state model... which are from a time when dual profile models did not exist. Updated terminology would be "the bearer" or something similar.

I've seen nothing in the rules that even imply that the barge will get a save of any kind except jink. the barge and the lord have different profiles, and if either dies, they both die. that's it. nothing says that the models save is conferred to the barge any more than the lord can use the jink save from the barge.

I am not a walking depository of the Rules themselves, and I am on vacation so I won't go digging though all the books to find that one psychic Power or Ability which fits the requirements you have put forth.
All it would take is a Rule stating a Model improves their Armour Save, being applied to the vehicle, and the Vehicle will now have an Armour Save one better then - .
It won't be useful, Armour Saves are only used against Wounds, but it would have one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Some Bloke,
You said it yourself: 'The Models Save'
How many Models are there in this scenario?

Personally, I am firmly in the Specific vs General crowd that states a Profile overwrites the Model.
The requirement to Allocate to the Rider or Chariot, which are two different Profiles on the Model, would prevent resolving the rest of the Shooting Sequence against the Model as a whole. Instead we are now required to finish resolving said Sequence directly against the Profile, and giving that there are two distinct and separate profiles it would no longer be possible to ignore characteristics of one in favour of the other, unless otherwise stated by certain Rules within Chariots of course. This fixes any problems concerning what the Model might have as a whole, follows the rules exactly as the are written, and causes way less problems in the long run because the Sequence is resolved as if the two profiles where separate "Models."

JinxDragon wrote:

All it would take is a Rule stating a Model improves their Armour Save, being applied to the vehicle, and the Vehicle will now have an Armour Save one better then - .
It won't be useful, Armour Saves are only used against Wounds, but it would have one.

Fair do's..

You don't wound the rider to shoot the chariot, you shoot the chariot. Otherwise the chariot would be useless. What does grav weaponry say about shooting the chariot?

scipio your completely going off tract with that train of thought.


As has been mentioned its very simple really:

You fire your grav cents at the chariot, and get 12 hits.

As per the chariots rules, the necron player who is getting shot now has to allocate those hits to both the rider or the chariot.

He would say, i'll put 2 on the overlord and 10 on the CCB.

The firing player then rolls to wound on the 2 that are on the overlord, needing 2's with rerolls to wound. Then overlord takes his 2 3++ saves.

Next the firing player rolls 10 graviton damage rolls vs. the chariot, getting 2 6's after rerolls. The vehicle looses 2 hull points and suffers 2 immobilized results (which i think are downgraded on the CCB).



Thats it. Shooting done.

Anyone trying to argue otherwise is blatently trying to game the system and abuse rules. The chariot gets no saves (other than jink) and the overlord has to make saves vs. anything allocated to himself.

JinxDragon wrote:
I am not a walking depository of the Rules themselves, and I am on vacation so I won't go digging though all the books to find that one psychic Power or Ability which fits the requirements you have put forth.
All it would take is a Rule stating a Model improves their Armour Save, being applied to the vehicle, and the Vehicle will now have an Armour Save one better then - .
It won't be useful, Armour Saves are only used against Wounds, but it would have one.

OT, but you cannot improve something that does not exist. Vehicles do not have armor saves.

Show me the Restriction which states a vehicle can never have an Armour Save, even if a Special Rule or Power would grant them one.

 happygolucky wrote:
From what I have read it looks like it would be played out like this:

-Fires grav-gun.

-Chariot player decided where the wound is allocated.

-If allocated to the rider it wounds on its Armour save.

-If allocated to a chariot it has to do its damage on a 6 as stated in the codex.

The big thing here is that vehicles (and the chariot is a vehicle, because it has a vehicle statline) do not sprout Armour Saves and therefore do no damage on the chariot on the 2+ people speak of.

If people complain about it, I wont stop them wounding on a 2+, after all if thats how people want to play it, it will deal no wounds as Chariots have no wounds... They have HP, which is a large difference.. and therefore have no effect upon the chariot as it is not going for the damage table rather than trying to get wounds off something that does not have wounds in the first place, so no damage dealt either way..

Sounds like some people are just exploiting for the sake of it..

This is my reading too. Are the people espousing the alternative train of thought seriously thinking you should play it like: roll to hit (allocate to vehicle) --> roll to penetrate armor --> roll to see if the armor, which has just been penetrated, saves the "wound" --> resolve damage?

Eihnlazer wrote:
scipio your completely going off tract with that train of thought.


As has been mentioned its very simple really:

You fire your grav cents at the chariot, and get 12 hits.

As per the chariots rules, the necron player who is getting shot now has to allocate those hits to both the rider or the chariot.

He would say, i'll put 2 on the overlord and 10 on the CCB.

The firing player then rolls to wound on the 2 that are on the overlord, needing 2's with rerolls to wound. Then overlord takes his 2 3++ saves.

Next the firing player rolls 10 graviton damage rolls vs. the chariot, getting 2 6's after rerolls. The vehicle looses 2 hull points and suffers 2 immobilized results (which i think are downgraded on the CCB).



Thats it. Shooting done.

Anyone trying to argue otherwise is blatently trying to game the system and abuse rules. The chariot gets no saves (other than jink) and the overlord has to make saves vs. anything allocated to himself.

IIIRC you allocate to rider/chariot based on hit pool, not an artistry number of hits. So all either hit the Overlord or the chariot, but not split up.

ahh sorry rig. I thought it specifically stated the defending player can allocate hits between the rider and chariot as they wanted.

Eihnlazer wrote:
ahh sorry rig. I thought it specifically stated the defending player can allocate hits between the rider and chariot as they wanted.

They can allocate hit pools, not individual hits. So a Unit could could score 8 Bolter hits, which the Defending player puts on the Chariot, 2 Melta hits which he puts on the Rider, then a Krak Grenade which he puts back on the Chariot.

lol chariots.

OP I'd advise your group house rule the issue in the fairest way for your group.

In this case, it's probably intended if hitting the rider +2, if hitting the vehicle then vehicle rules, and does not hit both. I've said before One model with 2 profiles opens up a lot of gaps, and everything is written as applied to models, nothing is only applied to a profile. Models take saves, profiles don't take saves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
Show me the Restriction which states a vehicle can never have an Armour Save, even if a Special Rule or Power would grant them one.

There is no restriction I can think of, but the rules do say vehicles have a different profile, and the save characteristic is not on there. The rider does not have a vehicle profile.