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Made in us
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Sedona, Arizona

 WarOne wrote:
Each race is capable of achieving an endgame with them on top.

For Chaos though, they have to have psychically attuned races in order to make significant inroads. The fall of the Imperium could lead to Chaos taking over, but you still have three credible threats in the Tyranids, Necrons, and Orks to deal with. Tau right now are too insignificant to be threatening on a galactic scale, but if you time shifted a thousand years into the future, they could be that powerful.


Chaos (or at least the Chaos Gods) do not actually want to wipe Man out so far as I know.

Mankind, and by extension the imperium, is where the Chaos Gods get the vast majority of their power. Orks feed Gork and Mork (there may be some exceptions, but they're small in comparison) where as Nids and Necrons don't feed anyone. Those are the three most pervasive, super OP factions in the universe once you trim out the Imperium and Mankind. Ergo, if Mankind were to fall and be wiped out or damn near it, only Khorne is the only Chaos god who would have the possibility to retain a fraction of his power, though even then it's questionable. Chaos feeds on emotion which nids and crons don't have, whilst Orks feed Gods not belonging to Chaos.

Sure, Chaos could leech off of some other things for awhile. Smaller races which aren't a 'faction' lore wise, the various forms of Eldar as well as the Tau, but they won't get near the kind of power they got from the Imperium and Man. The downfall of Man is the downfall of Chaos, it's that simple. Chaos can never win, they can only preserve or lose. If they wipe out man they lose, if the Crons, Orks, Nids, or anyone else wipes out man they lose. The best they can do is preserve the agonized existence of the Imperium which feeds them most of their strength.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/21 08:12:29


   
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The darkness between the stars

Technically Chaos can win actually. There's one where chaos basically wants to collapse reality into the warp and make the galaxy the eye of terror if not pure warp fun. Then there's Abaddon who really wants to take over the Imperium himself. So there are actually ways for Chaos to win. The latter would give chance for others to win, the other doesn't. Chaos doesn't need to wipe out man, only to smash the galaxy into the warp to make more daemon planets.

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 StarTrotter wrote:
Technically Chaos can win actually. There's one where chaos basically wants to collapse reality into the warp and make the galaxy the eye of terror if not pure warp fun. Then there's Abaddon who really wants to take over the Imperium himself. So there are actually ways for Chaos to win. The latter would give chance for others to win, the other doesn't. Chaos doesn't need to wipe out man, only to smash the galaxy into the warp to make more daemon planets.


That's what Chaos wants to do, but I've never heard of a way it can happen. There are Demon Gates (probably wrong term) which allow tons of demons to spill through into reality, and once in a blue moon a supremely powerful demon can knit a portion of the Warp into the "real" world for a very short amount of time; this is how Draigo always comes back. So far as I understand it, it's completely impossible for the Warp and Real Space to be permanently smashed together on a permanent basis; the closest this has come to EVER happening was the birth of Slaanesh, which merely did it on a very minor scale in the grand scheme of things.

So unless humanity somehow manages to birth a couple thousand more Chaos Gods on par with the Big Four with regards to power, Real Space is safe from the dreams which Chaos harbors.

Though even if Chaos were to succeed in that, they would still be defeated. Even if Man survived it would be so devastated population wise (as would all the races who survived) that all of chaos would become extremely weak in comparison to what they are now. Chaos would also have effectively wiped out Order, making it no-longer Chaos, and instead Order. It would become the anti-thesis of itself, and most likely implode or cease to be.

So again, Chaos can never win. Chaos -wants- to win, plenty of Chaos forces have these reams and these goals which involve them winning, but Chaos can literally never win. If Chaos wins, it loses.


   
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 StarTrotter wrote:
. Really the only ones that can't are DE which kinda would tag on with Eldar and Tau are extremely unlikely to win (their victory is basically if everything else blows up).


Dark Eldar are like Orks, they pretty much have what they want and their existence is pretty idyllic.

For Orks, the current craziness of the universe means there's always a good fight to be had. They just have to start/find it.

Dark Eldar aren't as well off, but they the present of 40k is wacky enough that they can do what they want in relative secrecy. Short of vanquishing Slaneesh, things are currently pretty great for DE.

   
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 morganfreeman wrote:
 StarTrotter wrote:
Technically Chaos can win actually. There's one where chaos basically wants to collapse reality into the warp and make the galaxy the eye of terror if not pure warp fun. Then there's Abaddon who really wants to take over the Imperium himself. So there are actually ways for Chaos to win. The latter would give chance for others to win, the other doesn't. Chaos doesn't need to wipe out man, only to smash the galaxy into the warp to make more daemon planets.


That's what Chaos wants to do, but I've never heard of a way it can happen. There are Demon Gates (probably wrong term) which allow tons of demons to spill through into reality, and once in a blue moon a supremely powerful demon can knit a portion of the Warp into the "real" world for a very short amount of time; this is how Draigo always comes back. So far as I understand it, it's completely impossible for the Warp and Real Space to be permanently smashed together on a permanent basis; the closest this has come to EVER happening was the birth of Slaanesh, which merely did it on a very minor scale in the grand scheme of things.

So unless humanity somehow manages to birth a couple thousand more Chaos Gods on par with the Big Four with regards to power, Real Space is safe from the dreams which Chaos harbors.

Though even if Chaos were to succeed in that, they would still be defeated. Even if Man survived it would be so devastated population wise (as would all the races who survived) that all of chaos would become extremely weak in comparison to what they are now. Chaos would also have effectively wiped out Order, making it no-longer Chaos, and instead Order. It would become the anti-thesis of itself, and most likely implode or cease to be.

So again, Chaos can never win. Chaos -wants- to win, plenty of Chaos forces have these reams and these goals which involve them winning, but Chaos can literally never win. If Chaos wins, it loses.



Actually it can be rather permanent. The Maelstorm and the Eye of Terror are examples. Other warp storms are long lived and likely not to perish. Add to that, planets can become daemon worlds without really being there. Basically the planet needs to be corrupted and infused with the warp long enough to get ruined. It's kind of foggy but Abaddon has a tactic to spread out the warp into the materium. It's more assumed traits of capability as many of the vaguries of Chaos are mysterious much as Draigo makes little to no sense.

Along with that, if Chaos were to win, the only possible way is to collapse reality into the warp. The quicker they strike the better, tearing a blaze to The Emperor and killing him off, getting Abaddon to loose and letting the webway flood even more, break in, spread through all of it and drown everything out with madness. The human and xenos races providing would still be enough to last. Once fallen to warp, nids, necrons, and the sorts would struggle and be playing against an enemy that has the edge of being in their natural habitat at last as well as new recruits. Planets would rise, fall, and so on with no real reliable course. Keep in mind that the warp makes no sense. Time is diluted. You can live for over 10,000 years, exactly, or 10,000 years pass by but only a day for you. In fact, you can go back in time. Chaos is infinite yet finite. Basically illogical beasts that we cannot comprehend that really are contradictory in how they are represented.

Chaos can win, but chaos is prone to self-defeat. Infighting, betrayal, and wonky rules that wibble around as they fight both within and without. Each army is staged with victory. I don't have it in my hands but there was some story about each possible victory. The Imperium's had something to do with evolving to an advanced psyker race as an example. But none of this really matters honestly. 40k's at the ticking at a minute before 12" and will never progress past that point.

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 Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:
 StarTrotter wrote:
. Really the only ones that can't are DE which kinda would tag on with Eldar and Tau are extremely unlikely to win (their victory is basically if everything else blows up).


Dark Eldar are like Orks, they pretty much have what they want and their existence is pretty idyllic.

For Orks, the current craziness of the universe means there's always a good fight to be had. They just have to start/find it.

Dark Eldar aren't as well off, but they the present of 40k is wacky enough that they can do what they want in relative secrecy. Short of vanquishing Slaneesh, things are currently pretty great for DE.


Idyllic? Terrified of death to the point of doing anything to extend their life and avoid consumption by the bane of their race is idyllic? Just because they have nihilistic fun doesn't mean they are loving life!

As far as chaos winning, it certainly is possible, but it is far from a forgone conclusion. The end game would be the merging of the warp and the real universe. The starvation idea, where humans die and the chaos gods slowly dwindle, doesn't necessarily work simply because the warp exists separate from the temporal timeline in many ways. The warp is already "charged" with the energy required to exist and doesn't need anything else to remain stable.

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Because Chaos dosent want to win. If the Chaos Gods wanted to win they would just turn everyone they can get their hands on into Daemon Princes and then have them kill everyone. That, and the sentient races, besides maybe the Eldar, don't know their screwed in the long run.
   
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Surely if the Imperium managed to sort everything out, that would beat chaos as well?

I know its not very Grimdark, but the only reason people war is for resources, humans are actually pretty nice deep down.

If the Imperium got totally squared away, kinda like the Federation in Star Trek, so there was no longer any battling for resources, surely chaos would be totally fethed?

Think of it this way, if our current earth, has completely removed the need for any and all resources like on TNG, and every country had eradicated poverty, suffering, and exploitation, wouldn't it be a big happy love fest, with feth all hate, and slaughter, and scheming?

Even in gakky modern earth, there is heaps more compassion and love, than hate and spite, imagine if humanity bettered itself?

We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
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No because there would still be basic emotions. Unless you kill all sentient life Chaos can't lose.

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 morganfreeman wrote:
 StarTrotter wrote:
Technically Chaos can win actually. There's one where chaos basically wants to collapse reality into the warp and make the galaxy the eye of terror if not pure warp fun. Then there's Abaddon who really wants to take over the Imperium himself. So there are actually ways for Chaos to win. The latter would give chance for others to win, the other doesn't. Chaos doesn't need to wipe out man, only to smash the galaxy into the warp to make more daemon planets.


That's what Chaos wants to do, but I've never heard of a way it can happen. There are Demon Gates (probably wrong term) which allow tons of demons to spill through into reality, and once in a blue moon a supremely powerful demon can knit a portion of the Warp into the "real" world for a very short amount of time; this is how Draigo always comes back. So far as I understand it, it's completely impossible for the Warp and Real Space to be permanently smashed together on a permanent basis; the closest this has come to EVER happening was the birth of Slaanesh, which merely did it on a very minor scale in the grand scheme of things.

So unless humanity somehow manages to birth a couple thousand more Chaos Gods on par with the Big Four with regards to power, Real Space is safe from the dreams which Chaos harbors.

Though even if Chaos were to succeed in that, they would still be defeated. Even if Man survived it would be so devastated population wise (as would all the races who survived) that all of chaos would become extremely weak in comparison to what they are now. Chaos would also have effectively wiped out Order, making it no-longer Chaos, and instead Order. It would become the anti-thesis of itself, and most likely implode or cease to be.

So again, Chaos can never win. Chaos -wants- to win, plenty of Chaos forces have these reams and these goals which involve them winning, but Chaos can literally never win. If Chaos wins, it loses.



Oh no, it's actually stated multiple times in several editions of the BRB IIRC. If the God Emperor is destroyed and is no longer a major force in the warp, Chaos gobbles up the entire universe as the GEOM is what's holding them back. It's also been stated that the swallowing of the universe is Chaos' main goal.

"His immense psychic powers envelop and protect Mankind across the entire galaxy. His consciousness wanders through Warp space, warring against the Daemons that inhabit it, keeping closed the doors between this world and the next.

If the Emperor fails then the Daemons of Chaos will flood into the galaxy. Every living human will become a gateway for the destruction of Mankind and the stuff of Warp space will submerge the galaxy. There will be no physical matter. No space. No time. Only Chaos."
-Warhammer 40k 5th Edition rulebook, pg.101


"Today, as for every day since that battle, the Emperor lives only by the immeasurable force of his supreme will. The stasis fields and psi-fusion reactors of the machine known as the Golden Throne preserve his broken and decayed body; his great mind endures inside a rotting carcass, kept alive by the mysteries of ancient technology. His immense psychic Powers reach out from the Golden Throne, enveloping and protecting Mankind across the enemy-strewn galaxy, a beacon of light in the malevolent darkness.

If the Emperor fails, then none will be able to stop the influx of the dark powers; ravenous and all-consurning Daemons will flood into the galaxy. Every living human will become a gateway for the destruction of Mankind. Reality as it is known will be subsumed by the stuff of Warp space - a realm of nightmares and cruel insanity where all life will end. There will be no physical matter. No space. No time. Only Chaos."
-Warhammer 40k 6th Edition rulebook, pg.137


"Daemons are destruction and anarchy incarnate and they lust after the flesh, blood and very souls of living creatures. They want only to destroy, to drag any living essence they can capture back to their shadowy realm, to obliterate the material universe and engulf it within Warp space."
-Warhammer 40k 6th Edition rulebook, pg. 144


"They are never sated. The abominations from the Warp will not rest untii they have consumed not just Mankind, but the universe as well. All will be ruin; all will be Chaos."
-Warhammer 40k 6th Edition rulebook, pg. 234



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 mattyrm wrote:
Surely if the Imperium managed to sort everything out, that would beat chaos as well?

I know its not very Grimdark, but the only reason people war is for resources, humans are actually pretty nice deep down.

If the Imperium got totally squared away, kinda like the Federation in Star Trek, so there was no longer any battling for resources, surely chaos would be totally fethed?

Think of it this way, if our current earth, has completely removed the need for any and all resources like on TNG, and every country had eradicated poverty, suffering, and exploitation, wouldn't it be a big happy love fest, with feth all hate, and slaughter, and scheming?

Even in gakky modern earth, there is heaps more compassion and love, than hate and spite, imagine if humanity bettered itself?


Man. What world do you live in, and how do I get there? Because here people don't kill for resources- it's just one of the innumerable causes of death and misery, the other two being religion/ideology and politics.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/21 17:49:14


“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
 
   
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Yeah and I specifically referenced TNG as well, because surely by the time we have all of that technology, religion will have been cast aside as well?

That only leaves politics, and that is almost always to do with money too. Why do people ever want to seperate for example? Why do Catalans want to leave Spain, or Scotland want to leave England?

Money.

In a future with infinite resources, there is little reason for conflict. Religion is often a crutch to the poor as well. "This life might suck, but don't worry its all milk and honey upstairs"

If the Imperium became a bastion of knowledge, wealth, equality, and good health, then the big four would be having a serious famine.

We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
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 mattyrm wrote:
Yeah and I specifically referenced TNG as well, because surely by the time we have all of that technology, religion will have been cast aside as well?

That only leaves politics, and that is almost always to do with money too. Why do people ever want to seperate for example? Why do Catalans want to leave Spain, or Scotland want to leave England?

Money.

In a future with infinite resources, there is little reason for conflict. Religion is often a crutch to the poor as well. "This life might suck, but don't worry its all milk and honey upstairs"

If the Imperium became a bastion of knowledge, wealth, equality, and good health, then the big four would be having a serious famine.


Except not only is that impossible with the Imperium's current state (hive worlds will never become peaceful), they lack the ability to ever become a post scarcity society. How the hell do they even become any of those things in the first place? And what's stopping Chaos from obliterating them if they did? Being post scarcity doesn't prevent Nurgle's Rot, Doubtworm, or the Plauge of Unbelief. Slaanesh would have a fething feast on the inevitable debauchery, Khorne would simply hammer the Imperium endlessly with daemons, and Tzeentch could do anything from seduce mortals with psyker gifts to possessing stars and driving the inhabitants of the entire system insane.

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 Wyzilla wrote:


Except not only is that impossible with the Imperium's current state...


Who are you arguing with? Not me, surely? Surely not the guy who started his first post with...

Surely IF the Imperium managed to sort everything out, that would beat chaos as well?


I mean, I even phrased it as a question, and I said it was an if. You seem to be spoiling for a virtual fight with someone who says things you can easily refute, but that isn't actually me.

I didn't say "In the Imperiums current state a hive world will never become peaceful" you did. I said if humanity became enlightened and there was unlimited resources it would end 99% of the conflict for humanity. That is obviously going to be the case.

If everyone was happy and healthy and there was no competition for resources, why couldn't a hive world be peaceful?

Go to a very wealthy neighborhood in a modern city and you will see tens of thousands of people living in harmony. The only muggers you find in Bel Air are the poor people who presumably bus their way in, and the same principle applies whether it is tens of thousands or tens of millions.

Poverty and desperation causes the vast majority of crime and suffering, you don't see many millionaire burglars do you?

Your entire tone is needlessly belligerent as well, "man, what world do you live in and how do I get there"

I didn't say I lived there, or it was likely. I said it wasn't very Grimdark but it actually would be possible for a futuristic society with grand technology to become peaceful.

A simple concept to grasp.

We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
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 mattyrm wrote:
That only leaves politics, and that is almost always to do with money too. Why do people ever want to seperate for example? Why do Catalans want to leave Spain, or Scotland want to leave England?

Money
Nationalism is usually fuelled by more than merely economic concerns. Scottish nationalism is driven by a combination of factors - among them cultural resentment of the english, and of a national UK government that is perceived as being too focused on english affairs at the expense of Scotland (and Wales, and Ireland, and come to think of it the north of England as well.) At times in the last 50 years alone that's even been true from time to time.

But aside from that - and some of those are at least partly economic concerns - there's history to be considered. I know people who hold grudges that would make a WHFB Dwarf nod in recognition, and who hold a very personal resentment of the english for Culloden and the Highland Clearances - events of over 200 years ago.

And we're a fairly civilised society compared to the Imperium. The IoM would never attain a post-scarcity civilisation on its own, even in the best of circumstances, and would have to have utopia forced upon them by a vastly superior power like The Culture from Iain M Banks' novels. Even then they'd still hold their old prejudices and resentments, only now they'd have more leisure to indulge them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/22 18:29:08


 
   
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Yes and surely those resentments are mainly about resources?

The North of England resents the South, but its because of money. The same concerns from Scots are the same concerns by Geordies and they are South of the wall.

They think that the government don't care a jot for the north because many are impoverished, I genuinely don't see how Scottish nationalism would be a factor is people could be moved to rage if everyone had everything they needed as in Star Trek.

I mean really, its a tiny percentage of (in my mind, utterly ridiculous bigots) people that actually genuinely dislike "The English" because of a battle from hundreds of years ago. I mean feth me, we are all interbred, I have Scottish ancestry, its entirely sound that if England and Scotland were to have a war of grduges, I would be bashing a guys brains out whose ancestors fought for England, and mine fought with William Wallace!

If everyone had everything they needed, and there was no concerns over healthcare, or food, or resources of any kind, what possible reason would there be for Northerners to take to the streets? And what would we write on our banners?

"My family and I are healthy, wealthy and educated, feth you Westminster"?

Although, Britain did apparently wipe France off the map at some point after the year 2066, so perhaps there are other factors that could cause an invasion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/22 19:01:24


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 Swastakowey wrote:
 Bobthehero wrote:
No, you can get of Orks with flamers and other destructive weapons, see Valhalla, who got rid of the greenies without exploding the place.


Dont they fire bomb the caverns and caves regularly though? Just in case?
one can never be to safe.

The west is on its death spiral.

It was a good run. 
   
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To give my 2 cents - the 2 main CORE cornerstones of the universe are -

1) The setting as being an analogue of late 14th - early 15th century Europe .
2) Every race (barring nids (genuine sci-fi heritage) n tau (manga native Americans (but from another perspective - ottomans))) has a fantasy equivalent. Think folklore as Jungian .

With this in mind - chaos is just a reflection of a superstitious medieval attitude focussed on war and belligerence. Thinking back to medieval times I imagine the STC like Aquinas and junk re-reading Aristotle. If humanity can sought of get back to the dark age of technology and 'drop the hate' chaos gods would lose power (just as death sex parties can create them ala slannesh).

Yes all this stuff about the Emperor needs to return as super-killer-golden-guy - I think he'd just tell people to stop worshiping him and start churning out emperor class battleships more.

Finding the STC is the real deal breaker.

Oh and the nids running out of steam. (crons got fluff de-buffed so meh to them - they waited too long to wake up).

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 StarTrotter wrote:



Actually it can be rather permanent. The Maelstorm and the Eye of Terror are examples. Other warp storms are long lived and likely not to perish. Add to that, planets can become daemon worlds without really being there. Basically the planet needs to be corrupted and infused with the warp long enough to get ruined. It's kind of foggy but Abaddon has a tactic to spread out the warp into the materium. It's more assumed traits of capability as many of the vaguries of Chaos are mysterious much as Draigo makes little to no sense.

Along with that, if Chaos were to win, the only possible way is to collapse reality into the warp. The quicker they strike the better, tearing a blaze to The Emperor and killing him off, getting Abaddon to loose and letting the webway flood even more, break in, spread through all of it and drown everything out with madness. The human and xenos races providing would still be enough to last. Once fallen to warp, nids, necrons, and the sorts would struggle and be playing against an enemy that has the edge of being in their natural habitat at last as well as new recruits. Planets would rise, fall, and so on with no real reliable course. Keep in mind that the warp makes no sense. Time is diluted. You can live for over 10,000 years, exactly, or 10,000 years pass by but only a day for you. In fact, you can go back in time. Chaos is infinite yet finite. Basically illogical beasts that we cannot comprehend that really are contradictory in how they are represented.

Chaos can win, but chaos is prone to self-defeat. Infighting, betrayal, and wonky rules that wibble around as they fight both within and without. Each army is staged with victory. I don't have it in my hands but there was some story about each possible victory. The Imperium's had something to do with evolving to an advanced psyker race as an example. But none of this really matters honestly. 40k's at the ticking at a minute before 12" and will never progress past that point.


Without the energy they get from humanity, I'm not sure that Chaos will have the juice to take down the Orks, Nids, or Necrons. Didn't the Alpha Legion join the Heresy specifically because if humanity lost that war, the resulting starvation will prevent most of Chaos from damaging the galaxy? Heck, reading the Heresy books, Chaos used to be encountered a LOT less often back in the day, when humanity was still killing, loving, plotting, and dying a LOT. Not as much as in the 40k time, but still a lot. A good number of 40k races have little or no presence in the Warp- another has entities backing it in the Warp that can go toe to toe with the Chaos Gods.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/18 14:50:50


 Jon Garrett wrote:
Perhaps not technically a Marine Chapter anymore, but the Flame Falcons would be pretty creepy to fight.

"Boss, we waz out lookin' for grub when some of them Spice Marines showed up and shot all the lads."

"Right. Well, did you at least use the burnas?"

"We tried, but the gits was already on fire."

"...Kunnin'."
 
   
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 EmpNortonII wrote:
 StarTrotter wrote:



Actually it can be rather permanent. The Maelstorm and the Eye of Terror are examples. Other warp storms are long lived and likely not to perish. Add to that, planets can become daemon worlds without really being there. Basically the planet needs to be corrupted and infused with the warp long enough to get ruined. It's kind of foggy but Abaddon has a tactic to spread out the warp into the materium. It's more assumed traits of capability as many of the vaguries of Chaos are mysterious much as Draigo makes little to no sense.

Along with that, if Chaos were to win, the only possible way is to collapse reality into the warp. The quicker they strike the better, tearing a blaze to The Emperor and killing him off, getting Abaddon to loose and letting the webway flood even more, break in, spread through all of it and drown everything out with madness. The human and xenos races providing would still be enough to last. Once fallen to warp, nids, necrons, and the sorts would struggle and be playing against an enemy that has the edge of being in their natural habitat at last as well as new recruits. Planets would rise, fall, and so on with no real reliable course. Keep in mind that the warp makes no sense. Time is diluted. You can live for over 10,000 years, exactly, or 10,000 years pass by but only a day for you. In fact, you can go back in time. Chaos is infinite yet finite. Basically illogical beasts that we cannot comprehend that really are contradictory in how they are represented.

Chaos can win, but chaos is prone to self-defeat. Infighting, betrayal, and wonky rules that wibble around as they fight both within and without. Each army is staged with victory. I don't have it in my hands but there was some story about each possible victory. The Imperium's had something to do with evolving to an advanced psyker race as an example. But none of this really matters honestly. 40k's at the ticking at a minute before 12" and will never progress past that point.


Without the energy they get from humanity, I'm not sure that Chaos will have the juice to take down the Orks, Nids, or Necrons. Didn't the Alpha Legion join the Heresy specifically because if humanity lost that war, the resulting starvation will prevent most of Chaos from damaging the galaxy? Heck, reading the Heresy books, Chaos used to be encountered a LOT less often back in the day, when humanity was still killing, loving, plotting, and dying a LOT. Not as much as in the 40k time, but still a lot. A good number of 40k races have little or no presence in the Warp- another has entities backing it in the Warp that can go toe to toe with the Chaos Gods.


To be frank, chaos, like every other faction, is excessively contradictory. How chaos gods are written is from lovecraftian entities (usually more oriented to the Idiot God where they really are just manifestations of souls and emotions) to just another xenos race and range from coming to be in medieval ages to having always been there. Really though, there isn't much rhyme or reason to it all and even the bg fluff gets torn apart including such examples as all the other gods of chaos being torn out just by CSM being updated to 6th. Toss in how they wax and wayne and rely on humanity in one occurence and next start saying they always existed and also have a birth date and it gets messy. That said, I prefer the one they depend on humanity.

Anyways, I don't get the point of your response. I don't really disagree. Thing is, there's no point for chaos to slaughter all of humanity. It'd be like the Eye of Terror spanning the galaxy really. Planets would be daemon planets ranging from heavenly planets to the worst planets you can imagine. Frankly, at that point, it becomes a curb stomp match against orks, nids, and/or necrons. Keep in mind, if Nids/orks/necrons destroy too many sentient races with warp links (particularly humans) then chaos is basically tossed out of the equation and only treated with mild annoyance as they become drastically diminished (if the four chaos gods even exist at all anymore). Every race is designed to have their late game victory (except maybe Tau. I can't think of theirs. I suppose they basically just get lucky and avoid the big damage?)

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 EmpNortonII wrote:
 StarTrotter wrote:



Actually it can be rather permanent. The Maelstorm and the Eye of Terror are examples. Other warp storms are long lived and likely not to perish. Add to that, planets can become daemon worlds without really being there. Basically the planet needs to be corrupted and infused with the warp long enough to get ruined. It's kind of foggy but Abaddon has a tactic to spread out the warp into the materium. It's more assumed traits of capability as many of the vaguries of Chaos are mysterious much as Draigo makes little to no sense.

Along with that, if Chaos were to win, the only possible way is to collapse reality into the warp. The quicker they strike the better, tearing a blaze to The Emperor and killing him off, getting Abaddon to loose and letting the webway flood even more, break in, spread through all of it and drown everything out with madness. The human and xenos races providing would still be enough to last. Once fallen to warp, nids, necrons, and the sorts would struggle and be playing against an enemy that has the edge of being in their natural habitat at last as well as new recruits. Planets would rise, fall, and so on with no real reliable course. Keep in mind that the warp makes no sense. Time is diluted. You can live for over 10,000 years, exactly, or 10,000 years pass by but only a day for you. In fact, you can go back in time. Chaos is infinite yet finite. Basically illogical beasts that we cannot comprehend that really are contradictory in how they are represented.

Chaos can win, but chaos is prone to self-defeat. Infighting, betrayal, and wonky rules that wibble around as they fight both within and without. Each army is staged with victory. I don't have it in my hands but there was some story about each possible victory. The Imperium's had something to do with evolving to an advanced psyker race as an example. But none of this really matters honestly. 40k's at the ticking at a minute before 12" and will never progress past that point.


Without the energy they get from humanity, I'm not sure that Chaos will have the juice to take down the Orks, Nids, or Necrons. Didn't the Alpha Legion join the Heresy specifically because if humanity lost that war, the resulting starvation will prevent most of Chaos from damaging the galaxy? Heck, reading the Heresy books, Chaos used to be encountered a LOT less often back in the day, when humanity was still killing, loving, plotting, and dying a LOT. Not as much as in the 40k time, but still a lot. A good number of 40k races have little or no presence in the Warp- another has entities backing it in the Warp that can go toe to toe with the Chaos Gods.


The Alpha Legion joined the Horus Heresy because they were told that they could kill Chaos by killing off humanity.... by a bunch of Xenos, IE not a reliable source of information in the least, and goes to show just how stupid the Alpha Legion's become. And no, every single 40K race has a presence in the warp, only the Necrons lack any connection due to their souls being devoured by the C'tan when they were biotransferred into their current Necrodermis bodies. There has been both Chaos Tau and Chaos Orks in the past, it's just a matter of Chaos giving a damn about the material realm.

Plus of course Chaos got beat the Necrons and Orks silly, Daemons can possess starts and destroy them. Act simultaneously and you have millions of GRB's going off at once and you've bleached the universe of life. Not to mention that when the God Emperor dies (somehow), Chaos consumes the galaxy/universe.

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