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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
We do have means to compare them, we have feats from the Black Library and visuals and text for pulse rifles from the Comics and ALIENS.

Well, you do have descriptions of bolt shooting and pulse rifle shooting, but do you have example of pulse rifle shooting at, say, space marines, or bolter shooting at xenomorphs? No? Then your comparison do not hold.

Except we can build a basic understanding by the amount of energy a pulse rifle exerts...

Guys... a bolter is essentially a 20mm cannon....

here is a video demonstrating the power of a 20mm cannon

that is about the power of a bolter round, although a bolter round is .5 mm smaller, and it will explode inside of the target.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Your poor attempt to discredit my argument completely differs however to the point they're completely different, feth I can't even understand what you wrote, it's just gibberish. I come from a forum centered on versus debates between fictional entities, I'm used to this.

I don't think the youtube comments section counts as a forum.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except we can build a basic understanding by the amount of energy a pulse rifle exerts...

I have played AvP99, AvP2, and seen every Alien movie. Do we have any idea what amount of damage a pulse rifle do to something else than a fictional alien, a fictional human wearing a fictional armor that has a completely unknown level of resistance, or fictional walls/doors that are made of unknown fictional material of unknown resistance? And no, clearly, not being able to damage the trees in the game (IIRC) is no proof of anything .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except we can build a basic understanding by the amount of energy a pulse rifle exerts...

I have played AvP99, AvP2, and seen every Alien movie. Do we have any idea what amount of damage a pulse rifle do to something else than a fictional alien, a fictional human wearing a fictional armor that has a completely unknown level of resistance, or fictional walls/doors that are made of unknown fictional material of unknown resistance? And no, clearly, not being able to damage the trees in the game (IIRC) is no proof of anything .

it has been said in the books and other Alien sources that the Pulse Rifle did very poorly killing Xenomorphs initially because they used a Flechette round, Eventually they made Anti Armor rounds standard issue for any force expected to encounter them, along with issuing Plasma Rifles.

So, does that give “any idea what amount of damage a pulse rifle do to something else than a fictional alien” ?
It gives an idea of the relative power of fictional pulse rifle and fictional xenomorph exoskeletons resistance. But since there are no sources giving any idea of the relative power of any of those compared to bolters or anything else in 40k…

Basically, it comes down to the fact that the Xenomorphs of the Aliens Universe/IP are not a significant threat compared to the things that are considered significant threats in the 40K Universe/IP. If we take the Xenomorphs exactly as they have been presented in their own setting, there's not enough of them, they lack any kind of psychic ability, they've never dealt with a society as militarized and heavily-armed as any society in 40K, and they've never dealt with anything like a Space Marine. Specifically, they've never dealt with anything like the Deathwatch, which makes Xeno-killing its primary function.

So while they would be dangerous to the unwary and unprepared, once a Xenomorph infestation was detected in the Imperium, there is a *vast* array of forces equipped and capable of cleansing it. Not only Space Marines, but IG, SoB, and Adeptus Arbites all have the firepower, the equipment and the know-how to purge the Alien.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except we can build a basic understanding by the amount of energy a pulse rifle exerts...

I have played AvP99, AvP2, and seen every Alien movie. Do we have any idea what amount of damage a pulse rifle do to something else than a fictional alien, a fictional human wearing a fictional armor that has a completely unknown level of resistance, or fictional walls/doors that are made of unknown fictional material of unknown resistance? And no, clearly, not being able to damage the trees in the game (IIRC) is no proof of anything .

Except we can by measuring the visuals of a pulse rifle's power in the movie ALIENS, or go by descriptions from books or panels from comics to calculate the energy exerted. It's quite simple, the only problem is getting a clear example.

Also, bolters are not at all similar to a 20mm cannon, the only similarity is in round size, that's it.

Well, they're also armor-piercing and effective against all forms of infantry and light vehicles.

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, they're also armor-piercing and effective against all forms of infantry and light vehicles.

Except that's only one type of ammunition, there's everything from Hellfire to Melta bolter rounds. Even then, bolters are probably more powerful than a 20mm cannon given their ability to completely liquify somebody with a gut-shot, but I couldn't be sure without footage of a 20mm cannon hitting a pig.

A 20mm cannon is incredibly destructive. With DPU rounds, it shred tanks.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except we can by measuring the visuals of a pulse rifle's power in the movie ALIENS

What?
How are the visuals telling you anything about the real power of the gun? It just gives a very vague idea.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except we can by measuring the visuals of a pulse rifle's power in the movie ALIENS

What?
How are the visuals telling you anything about the real power of the gun? It just gives a very vague idea.

No, it allows us to quantify the amount of energy each round carries by analyzing it frame-by-frame, or judging by the damage wreaked in comic panels or described in a book (although movies are the absolute easiest, books can range from easy to calc if the author uses exact scientific language to horribly impossible if it's flowery prose). Plus using modern firearms as a guide helps as well for quantifying the punch something packs in fiction.

 Wyzilla wrote:
No, it allows us to quantify the amount of energy each round carries by analyzing it frame-by-frame, or judging by the damage wreaked in comic panels or described in a book

The damage inflicted on unknown fictional materials?

 Wyzilla wrote:
Plus using modern firearms as a guide helps as well for quantifying the punch something packs in fiction.

Well, except for Applied Phlebotinum.
And you can expect some quite powerful Applied Phlebotinum if there is some 40k/alien cross-over ever. Because else, the story is going to be damn boring. And nobody would do a very boring crossover .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
No, it allows us to quantify the amount of energy each round carries by analyzing it frame-by-frame, or judging by the damage wreaked in comic panels or described in a book

The damage inflicted on unknown fictional materials?

It does not give us exact numbers but it does help in getting a rough idea.

For example, if we assume the materials used in bulkhead construction on board space ships are of similar materials we have now, then we can calculate how much energy is required to do that sort of damage, giving us a minimum enrgy output.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
No, it allows us to quantify the amount of energy each round carries by analyzing it frame-by-frame, or judging by the damage wreaked in comic panels or described in a book

The damage inflicted on unknown fictional materials?

 Wyzilla wrote:
Plus using modern firearms as a guide helps as well for quantifying the punch something packs in fiction.

Well, except for Applied Phlebotinum.
And you can expect some quite powerful Applied Phlebotinum if there is some 40k/alien cross-over ever. Because else, the story is going to be damn boring. And nobody would do a very boring crossover .

It's quite easy to judge the amount of energy exerted on something (well in a movie, and "easy" is relative, as it's better than going off scant information), as normal organic matter is fairly similar across the board. Xenomorph chitin in the movies for example doesn't seem to be worth a damn besides pressurization. But fictional materials can be relatively judged going by what they survive, like Astartes power armor tanking a battlecannon shot that destroyed ten (square IIRC) meters of concrete reinforced by rebar.

Of course, this is just a basic explanation. You'd have to find out what kind of shot the Leman Russ was loaded with (if a battlecannon is similar to HEAT, Sabots, solid projectiles, etc), what the speed of the projectile was, and what the mass of the projectile was. Just going by "big boom" isn't enough for good accuracy.

 Psienesis wrote:
A 20mm cannon is incredibly destructive. With DPU rounds, it shred tanks.

Most stuff in that category isn't issued DPU stuff, but something like a Russian Sergei 23mm twin-barrel AA machine gun (ZU-23-2) will shred at least APCs with the standard armor piercing ammo available. My mates that were in AA units did have some training time put toward engaging ground targets too, because strangely enough it was thought that many armies won't wish to use expensive planes to take out a single AA emplacement. Ground troops are much cheaper and have a much easier time targeting a low-tech emplacement. As I recall targets stayed around for a long time when shot at by 50cal (12.7mm AA MGs) but once the heavier Sergeis were pointed that way they disintegrated in a few volleys.

 Wyzilla wrote:
It's quite easy to judge the amount of energy exerted on something (well in a movie, and "easy" is relative, as it's better than going off scant information), as normal organic matter is fairly similar across the board.

Fairly similar? Xenomorph can survive in space, and in melted metal. That is not by any way something I would expect from “normal organic matter”.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Xenomorph chitin in the movies for example doesn't seem to be worth a damn besides pressurization.

What if that is just your impression because actually pulse rifle are super-duper powerful?

 Wyzilla wrote:
But fictional materials can be relatively judged going by what they survive, like Astartes power armor tanking a battlecannon shot that destroyed ten (square IIRC) meters of concrete reinforced by rebar.

That… is quite ridiculous. Who wrote that gak, and where?

The only xenomorph I can remember surviving in space was in the Alien movie, and that was for half a minute or so. Human beings can survive in space for that long.

Why is everyone trying to compare the pulse rifle to a boltgun?

The thread is aliens and preds in the 40k universe, so 40k universe rules and physics apply, the pulse rifle is an auto gun and as such is functionally identical to a las gun. Because the universe isn't real we use the only thing that tells us the power of these weapons.

Lasgun str 1d10 +1 range 100m pen 1
Autogun str1d10 +1 range 80m pen 1

Lasgun str 3 ap- 24"
Autogun str3 ap- 24"

So useing deathwatch and 40k we can see that they are identical.

Alcibiades wrote:
The only xenomorph I can remember surviving in space was in the Alien movie, and that was for half a minute or so. Human beings can survive in space for that long.

oesn't the pressurisation cause your head to instantly explode?

That is a myth, your eyes would not have a fun time and any blood vessels too close to the surface would likely rupture but no inta gib.

Same with the whole freezing space thing, that depends entirely on how close to the sun you are. At earth distance with no atmosphere to protect you, you would likely cook in short order.

An alien with its hardened exoskelton and lack of need to breath would be able to survuve in space for quite some time.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Nah, I think Xenomorphs would definitely have Fleet and possibly Leaping as well. Those things ]fast.

Fast but squishy. If I was going to stat up Xenomorphs... probably something like,

WS 5 BS 0 S 4 T 3 W 2 I 6 A 2 Ld 10 Sv 5+

Type: Infantry

Weapons: Rending Claws, Tail

Special Rules: Furious Charge, Fleet, Move Through Cover

Tail: The Xenomorph may make an additional Tail Attack at Initiative 1. This is made at +4 Strength

I would make it t4 w1.

Also whenever this model takes a wound all enemy models in base contact must make an Initiative test or suffer a str3 ap5 hit.

My two cents is that that I think that they would manage to fit quite easily into the 40k universe and put a much cooler, more sinister spin on the whole who knows wtf is sgoing on under the face of the imperium thing. I think that they would make a really good kind of predator that lives in the depths of many hive worlds, putting a bit more pressure on people to cull them and would really make for some good stories on how the hell you would hunt them down.

Because yes, they may get their areses handed to them by a deathwatch kill team, but I think that it would be damn near impossible to eradicate a Xenomorph infestation from a hive world. There is just too many places for them to hide and too much prey in the form of mutants and whatnot living under the city. They would also get around really easily just due to the extreme amount of shipping that goes on in the imperium. I think that they would actually become a serious threat and would really screw things up for the imperium.

 thetallestgiraffe wrote:
My two cents is that that I think that they would manage to fit quite easily into the 40k universe and put a much cooler, more sinister spin on the whole who knows wtf is sgoing on under the face of the imperium thing. I think that they would make a really good kind of predator that lives in the depths of many hive worlds, putting a bit more pressure on people to cull them and would really make for some good stories on how the hell you would hunt them down.

Because yes, they may get their areses handed to them by a deathwatch kill team, but I think that it would be damn near impossible to eradicate a Xenomorph infestation from a hive world. There is just too many places for them to hide and too much prey in the form of mutants and whatnot living under the city. They would also get around really easily just due to the extreme amount of shipping that goes on in the imperium. I think that they would actually become a serious threat and would really screw things up for the imperium.

I would put them as a threat to individual hives but not much more than that.

The aliens have not shown the patience to hide long enough for interestallar travel which may to weeks or even years, and an infested ship would be simply be destroying or cleansed. A limited genestealer infestation such as that onboard a ship would not be a match for a squad or space marines or stormtroopers.

They will only thrive in situations where they can get access to large numbers or relatively vulnerable prey such as a hive world. And remember even lightly gaurded hives still have forces of several thousand PDF and Arbites who are heavily armed and not nearly as likely to panic as the soldiers in the Aliens franchise.

 Psienesis wrote:
Basically, it comes down to the fact that the Xenomorphs of the Aliens Universe/IP are not a significant threat compared to the things that are considered significant threats in the 40K Universe/IP. If we take the Xenomorphs exactly as they have been presented in their own setting, there's not enough of them, they lack any kind of psychic ability, they've never dealt with a society as militarized and heavily-armed as any society in 40K, and they've never dealt with anything like a Space Marine. Specifically, they've never dealt with anything like the Deathwatch, which makes Xeno-killing its primary function.

So while they would be dangerous to the unwary and unprepared, once a Xenomorph infestation was detected in the Imperium, there is a *vast* array of forces equipped and capable of cleansing it. Not only Space Marines, but IG, SoB, and Adeptus Arbites all have the firepower, the equipment and the know-how to purge the Alien.

While I agree with the fact that they can be destroyed, They breed incredibly fast. if even a drone managed to escape into the depths of a Hive world, it could cause a lot of problems.

They are animals and there main function is to reproduce. They would capture people for birthing. so it would start with a handful of homeless underhivers disappearing. the City wouldn't even know it was a threat before they would probably need deathwatch intervention.

Guard, Arbites can handle small nest. but in the confines of the underhive you would need sisters or marines to bring ordnance needed to clear the hive

 Mythantor wrote:


I would put them as a threat to individual hives but not much more than that.

The aliens have not shown the patience to hide long enough for interestallar travel which may to weeks or even years, and an infested ship would be simply be destroying or cleansed. A limited genestealer infestation such as that onboard a ship would not be a match for a squad or space marines or stormtroopers.

They will only thrive in situations where they can get access to large numbers or relatively vulnerable prey such as a hive world. And remember even lightly gaurded hives still have forces of several thousand PDF and Arbites who are heavily armed and not nearly as likely to panic as the soldiers in the Aliens franchise.

Hmmm, I understand why there may be some trouble then for Aliens to get to different planets and I can't counter this as the only alien knowledge I have stems from the first two movies and a couple of the alien vs predator movies. However I think that if they land on any world other than a shrine world, certain fortress worlds or anywhere that isn't built without mass amounts of soldiers or zealots with next to no vents or under the surface places isn't necessarily game over man, but is in serious trouble. I mean you can have two hundred thousand arbities patrolling a hive world at once, but it's an entire PLANET that the alien has to run around and it just seems impossible that they could kill many of them when you consider their hiding and hunting skills.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Toeko wrote:


While I agree with the fact that they can be destroyed, They breed incredibly fast. if even a drone managed to escape into the depths of a Hive world, it could cause a lot of problems.

They are animals and there main function is to reproduce. They would capture people for birthing. so it would start with a handful of homeless underhivers disappearing. the City wouldn't even know it was a threat before they would probably need deathwatch intervention.

Guard, Arbites can handle small nest. but in the confines of the underhive you would need sisters or marines to bring ordnance needed to clear the hive

I didn't think that Aliens could create more aliens without a queen to make facehuggers. Wouldn't a drone be kind of useless and just kill some people?

A lone drone will manually implant a special egg into a living host. That egg/thing will then hatch to become a queen.

All drones have this capability so in order to wipe out a hive you have to kill them all.

Each "nest" has a queen, in the event of a queen dieing ANY. Drone can then become a queen, aliens are asexual and do not need sex, therefore even a single drone could spawn a hive.

Aliens can and do survive a vacuum and space travel, aliens can also enter a state of hibernation and lay dormant for extremely long periods.

 Toeko wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Basically, it comes down to the fact that the Xenomorphs of the Aliens Universe/IP are not a significant threat compared to the things that are considered significant threats in the 40K Universe/IP. If we take the Xenomorphs exactly as they have been presented in their own setting, there's not enough of them, they lack any kind of psychic ability, they've never dealt with a society as militarized and heavily-armed as any society in 40K, and they've never dealt with anything like a Space Marine. Specifically, they've never dealt with anything like the Deathwatch, which makes Xeno-killing its primary function.

So while they would be dangerous to the unwary and unprepared, once a Xenomorph infestation was detected in the Imperium, there is a *vast* array of forces equipped and capable of cleansing it. Not only Space Marines, but IG, SoB, and Adeptus Arbites all have the firepower, the equipment and the know-how to purge the Alien.

While I agree with the fact that they can be destroyed, They breed incredibly fast. if even a drone managed to escape into the depths of a Hive world, it could cause a lot of problems.

They are animals and there main function is to reproduce. They would capture people for birthing. so it would start with a handful of homeless underhivers disappearing. the City wouldn't even know it was a threat before they would probably need deathwatch intervention.

Guard, Arbites can handle small nest. but in the confines of the underhive you would need sisters or marines to bring ordnance needed to clear the hive

No, not really. The PDF should be able to handle them just fine. A Lasgun is as good as a Pulse Rifle and the Imperium has even more potent small arms than the colonial marines do. You may need Stormtroopers if there is an excessive amount of vents, though, because Aliens love their ventilation shafts.

I think their role in the 40k Universe would be one of those creatures that terrorizes the lower levels of Hives and has to be culled every now and again.

I think their role in the 40k Universe would be one of those creatures that terrorizes the lower levels of Hives and has to be culled every now and again.

Exactly this. I think people are forgetting just how hard-core the average Imperial Citizen is, especially one who resides on a Hive World.

These are the sorts of people that, even if they work in Ye Olde GameStop of the Imperium, would think absolutely nothing about walking across Detroit at midnight to get home... because the worst of our cities is nothing compared to a Hive.