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 BlaxicanX wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
in close combat, 99% of ap2 is at I1,

Really? What Chaos player do you know that doesn't take the AoBF on his lord? What Space Marine player do you know that isn't taking the Burning Blade, or doesn't have the Shield Eternal to laugh off that power-claw?

What Tyranid HQ's are you fighting that aren't rocking native AP2 from being MC's?

What Daemon players do you know who fight you in CC with an HQ that isn't an MC or isn't taking a 10-point etherblade?

99% of AP2 might be initiative 1 normally, but in a competitive setting, you'll rarely find just a naked powerfist/equivalent.

99% may have been an exaggeration! but Il humor you.

You've mentioned the SM Beatstick, which at twice the cost does kill a Warboss, as it should. Also, the Burning blade is not the competitive choice, Shield Eternal, Thunderhammer(I1!), artificer Armor, and a bike is. Without the Shield Eternal the Chapter Master wouldn't stand much of a chance. And the Warboss is usually half the cost.

Chaos isn't a huge concern, and currently a Khorne Lord really isn't on the list of competitive choices. Even so, they are equal weapon skill and the Warboss has just as good a chance of surviving and Iding The Lord. Lord hits on 4s and Wounds on 4s. Warboss almost always survives. Warboss hits on 4s and IDs on 2s vs the Lords Invulnerable. The Warboss is cheaper and wins this matchup.

Tyranid HQs? Those Flyrants that don't want to land, when they do they die. Even hitting CC the Warboss still wins by a considerable margin and is half the cost.

Daemon HQs are either MCs or get IDed right back. Some are obviously bad match ups, and at over twice the cost of course a Warboss wants nothing to do with a Bloodthirster. Most other ICs are getting IDed.

Nothing you mentioned was competitive. Using the Warboss for CC isn't about letting your opponent send their CC Monster at him, it's about you being mobile and choosing beneficial CCs, most of which the Warboss can handle solo. Ie Riptodes are a prime Target, SM Beatstick or Driago is a bad one. Etc. THSS Termies are to be avoided, Centurions are to be charged. Etc.

Warboss is pretty cheap, he is what he is, you can't expect him to roll into combat with the big nasties at half their cost, but just about anything else is fair game.

Losing the 5++ is a 50% increase in the number of unsaved wounds taken, so it's a pretty big deal. Although I'm pretty sure most people are aggravated by how arbitrary the nerf was.


The relic big choppa has such a bizarre power curve for what it's effective against, I think that it's totally worth sticking on a biker boss on occasion, especially for those who take a pair of them. Depending on what your regular opponents use the rending/ID effect will be hilarious and outperforms the PK in those situations by a massive degree. Frankly, having a choice other than a PK that isn't obviously bad is refreshing.

The codex as a whole seems to want to push people towards speedfreaks-style play.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
all those things kicked warbosses butts when they had 5++.... sure they still kick a warbosses butt now that he doesnt have a 5++....what is your point exactly.

My point is that "99% of AP2 in the game goes at initiative 1" is a silly argument for anything.

now I have the option to be smart, and sacrifice a different character to the challenge

Which is irrelevant to the topic of discussion, which was "how good are Warbosses in a challenge", the answer to which is "not very".


I don't give a gak about orks, in fact I don't even play orks. So spare me tyour complaining about other peoples' complaining. The power level of Orks is of no concern to me. I'm just pointing out that your apologist argument for a Warboss' effectiveness in a challenge is flawed. Warbosses are garbage in challenges unless you're using him as a bully unit and beating termagautns and guardsmen and tactical squads or something.

mhmmmmm have fun with not giving a *expletive* about orks and then being such a jerk in an ork tactic thread.

OBS i dont literally mean 99%, but it is a fact that most ap 2 stuff is initiative one, and your warboss is not the solution for ap2 stuff thats got better initiative, and I never said it was.

If you want to cherry pick the non I 1 ap2 attacks,and say they will kill warbosses, fine, go ahead and state the obvious... i dont disagree with that obvious and non helpful statement at all, we all know our WB;s always have and always will get pwned by demon princes and greater deamons.

however people are not running decked out CC characters or demons in competitive tournaments, in fact, they generally avoid ALL CC for the best shooting units available.

so in general,

having the option to split my warboss off from the main pack, and charge some large groop of non ap2 guys (which is a lot of units) and then proceed to wreck them with a rerollable 2+ for less then 150 pts... is AWESOME!

seriously... we have rerollable 2+ saves now... isntant death CCW and shooting, 5++ on manz, FNP on mans (without the 150 pt tax...) we have ranged solutions to all armours, we have the BEST AA in game, which will own all the FMCès out there that can rape our warbosses.

our basic troop is t4, 6pts, and can run and charge, and reroll a charge dice, so turn 2 charges are now a fairly reliable thing...

its a great day to be green people!

 Zagman wrote:
Using the Warboss for CC isn't about letting your opponent send their CC Monster at him, it's about you being mobile and choosing beneficial CCs, most of which the Warboss can handle solo. Ie Riptodes are a prime Target, SM Beatstick or Driago is a bad one. Etc. THSS Termies are to be avoided, Centurions are to be charged. Etc.

I'm glad you agree with me that the Warboss is getting handled if it's relying on it's 2+ save to keep it alive in a challenge against any beatsick.

 easysauce wrote:
If you want to cherry pick the non I 1 ap2 attacks,and say they will kill warbosses, fine, go ahead and state the obvious... i dont disagree with that

Awesome. I'm glad we're on the same page, mate.

I am really looking forwards to going back to a green tide sort of lists. I was also wondering what fortifications people might be considering for their Orks. I think a bastion with an escape hatch would be a very awesome way to drop a foot unit far up the field with giving a good vantage point to lootas.

I do have a problem though, I just got a Gargantuan Squiggoth this year and now Ghazzy is a LoW. So unless the Warboss supplement solves my problem I can't have Ghazzy ride his new pet into battle unless I double CaD.

DaKrumpa wrote:
I am really looking forwards to going back to a green tide sort of lists. I was also wondering what fortifications people might be considering for their Orks. I think a bastion with an escape hatch would be a very awesome way to drop a foot unit far up the field with giving a good vantage point to lootas.

I do have a problem though, I just got a Gargantuan Squiggoth this year and now Ghazzy is a LoW. So unless the Warboss supplement solves my problem I can't have Ghazzy ride his new pet into battle unless I double CaD.

I ere ya matey!

I wanted to use stompa and ghazzy my self!

can always tool up ghazz as a counts as warboss though!

my hat is off to you if you evar finish painting dat squggoth!

Not gonna lie. Da Hedwompa might not be a totally viable weapon (S8 warbosses on the charge rather than S10, AP5 Rending rather than AP2, but strikes at Init4) but i seriously want to kitbash a boss on bike wielding this oversized and menacing axe lol. Init 4 may not beat out a lot of characters (freakin SM captains all are I5 and some special ones are higher) or big bugs but i will strike at the same time most of the time, and still paste T4 models and potentially paste T6+ models.

Im thinkin an axe about 1.5X the size of the warboss himself lol. I still got my old old AOBR boss lying around i can convert with, just gotta give him a new fist and an oversized axe!

Not quite as useful against EW since less attacks that will pen armor (wtf with EW doesnt have a 2+ lol) but those are pretty rare and the bearers of said rules would probably kick the warbosses ass anyway, even in megaarmor with pk.

I know the Ghazzy supplement is going to be in the warboss edition, but can you buy it separate on saturday? How much do those things typically cost?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Not gonna lie. Da Hedwompa might not be a totally viable weapon (S8 warbosses on the charge rather than S10, AP5 Rending rather than AP2, but strikes at Init4) but i seriously want to kitbash a boss on bike wielding this oversized and menacing axe lol. Init 4 may not beat out a lot of characters (freakin SM captains all are I5 and some special ones are higher) or big bugs but i will strike at the same time most of the time, and still paste T4 models and potentially paste T6+ models.

Im thinkin an axe about 1.5X the size of the warboss himself lol. I still got my old old AOBR boss lying around i can convert with, just gotta give him a new fist and an oversized axe!

Not quite as useful against EW since less attacks that will pen armor (wtf with EW doesnt have a 2+ lol) but those are pretty rare and the bearers of said rules would probably kick the warbosses ass anyway, even in megaarmor with pk.

A bikerboss with Da Hedwompa and the Lucky Stikk is what, ~130 points? With his bike dropped down to mere Moondrakken levels, cybork totally not being worth it, and the Lucky Stikk not costing much more than an old attack squigg plus being +1WS to his unit, he is pretty bloody cheap and easy to fit into a list.

Also with bosses being able to take waagghhh banners regular boyz can be WS5

5++ was essential for a warboss. From my gaming experience, serious mellee challengers did around 2-4 wounds to a warboss on ini (burning blades, aobf). Heck, even farsight did 1-2 wounds. You had 5++ and fnp which saved around half of the wounds. Without 5++ it's 1 less save which is the difference between 4-6 s10 ap2 attacks and 0 attacks and dead warboss + slay the warlord and swept ld7 squad that costs 300+ pts. Remember, your warboss does not have 4 wounds like chapter master or even tau commander. Oh, that tau commanders. Not once have they killed entire squads of my sluggaboyz with pk nobz singlehandedly.

 Toburk wrote:


Also with bosses being able to take waagghhh banners regular boyz can be WS5

Holy gak I didnt even think of thatt

I am kind of considering making a toned down speed freakz list. Two CAD's, match up the speeds of looted wagons, battlewagons, bikes (with a big mek, warboss, maybe a painboy; but I want to try and keep such a unit reasonably costed). Bommers for outflank/reserve and Lootas for backfield support. Maybe some trukks as support, but it's unlikely to be necessary with a bunch of battlewagons and the looted wagons. The only issue is that I'd have three AV 11 transports and no other AV 10/11 (besides bommers) to draw fire from them. Should I add in buggies too? I'm thinking burnas, boyz and meganob missiles in the transports.

mrfantastical wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
Perfect Unbound list:

Looted Wagons with DeffRollas and 3 Rokkits

2 possible Tank Shocks/Rams per turn. Can claim objectives.

Can take 30 at 1850. Will eventually destroy everything.

I don't think that Looted Wagons are allowed to tank-shock if you roll "Don't press dat!". Might want to check with YMDC on that.

As of right now, only 1 tank shock/ram allowed on your movement phase.

Stupid yes, unfluffy yes, defies the laws of physics, yes

Ok this is a couple pages late but clarify this. Where does it say you can only tankshock/ram once during the movement phase? I see nothing in either tankshock or ram talking about only one vehicle per turn can do this action, and thats what im getting from your response here.
Which is huge for me as BOTH my orks and my tau tankshock/ram a lot. Its a very powerful tool in many situations nobody ever pays attention to. I almost always have to read the rules word-for-word whenever i do it because nobody knows wtf they are lol.

Billagio wrote:

 Toburk wrote:


Also with bosses being able to take waagghhh banners regular boyz can be WS5

Holy gak I didnt even think of thatt

Omg...neither did i....

Thats 14x Warbikers with 3 attacks each, 4 on charge, a Nob with 3 PK attacks 4 on charge, a warboss with 4 attacks 5 on charge using Da Hedwompa all at WS5.
Thats insane. That is a potential 56 S4 attacks from the boyz at WS5 on the charge. Holy freakin gak.
I think my ~10 unassembled bikers are about to get fixed up.....lol

Warboss would actually be swinging at WS6, I thought. Also, I'm sort of new to 6th/7th, but if you took the new formation and rolled over a 10 on a charge, would the warbikes get HoW hits?

Yea he would. Being WS6 rarely means anything though, its WS5 that is massive to get your hands on, especially with that many bodies.

Unless youre against a character with WS5 in a challenge, the bosses WS6 with the stixx wont mean anything.

And personally outside warbosses i dont know many characters that are WS5. Theyre all WS3/4 or 6+ far as ive ever had to deal with. Thats me though, i could just be "lucky"

A mob of Boyz hitting most things on 3s though is beautiful thing. Is it confirmed that bosses can take waaagh banners?

 Gratlugg wrote:
Warboss would actually be swinging at WS6, I thought. Also, I'm sort of new to 6th/7th, but if you took the new formation and rolled over a 10 on a charge, would the warbikes get HoW hits?

Bikes and walkers always get HoW gits. Jump infantry gets HoW when they have not used their jump pack to move.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Gratlugg wrote:
Warboss would actually be swinging at WS6, I thought. Also, I'm sort of new to 6th/7th, but if you took the new formation and rolled over a 10 on a charge, would the warbikes get HoW hits?

Bikes and walkers always get HoW gits. Jump infantry gets HoW when they have not used their jump pack to move.

My bad! Still a bit new to things. I think a boss on bike with the relic choppa and lucky stick will be pretty beastly, and much cheaper than previous nobs on bikes setup.

Speed freak list with multiple cheap warbosses, giving some BW boys or 'ard boys WS5. that is something that could be enjoyable and fluffy

I like the idea of smaller units that may not be able to roll over deathstar units, but bring plenty of pain for a low points cost. I like the idea of da head wompa relic, as a warboss with a freakin huge axe is the kinda warboss i imagine!

Jidmah, a few pages back you suggested a morkanaught over a meka-dread, can i ask as to what you reasoning was. I really like the idea of the rokkit bomb racks, even with a chance for them to run out T1. I think your right having looked at them both, but id like your views or anyone elses for that matter.

I am also unsure what to transport within the morka's, if I was to bring 2, id want one with the relic fixer (3+) and a mek atleast in the other. are burna boys most suitable? cant shoot out, or assault out. So the only time your unit inside is gona hop out is either if it gets close enough to the enemy or you have a dedicated assault unit coming your way and its the only defense about? Plus are you even likely to be running instead of shooting the naughts? I would assume that you'd want to be shooting every turn. so the unit inside is unlikely to see combat soon.

Are Trukk boys really that bad?

I'm really looking forward to playing them on the new warband formation.
Now the trukk costs 5 points less wich covers the mandatory boarding plank (still 5pts right?), basically they cost the same, they got more charge range and the chance to pile in 11 attacks plus a claw at I10...

The downside is that ramshackle is nerfed, but it's still a 6+ save on pen (kinda) and the S4 hits from the explosion combined with the new mob rule is just a big mess.

Thoughts?

 Vapordrago88 wrote:
Are Trukk boys really that bad?

I'm really looking forward to playing them on the new warband formation.
Now the trukk costs 5 points less wich covers the mandatory boarding plank (still 5pts right?), basically they cost the same, they got more charge range and the chance to pile in 11 attacks plus a claw at I10...

The downside is that ramshackle is nerfed, but it's still a 6+ save on pen (kinda) and the S4 hits from the explosion combined with the new mob rule is just a big mess.

Thoughts?

The S4 explosion and mob rule combination could be a little annoying, but i think with trukk boys its still simply more trukks than can be shot. 12 boys is what roughly 72 pts with extras and a trukk, whats that less than 120 pts? still able to field many of these units. Yeh not quite as strong as before with ramshackle, the ability to be protected from templates inside open topped and fearless at 12 strong. But I still think they are very viable. I just personally dont want to play a speed freaks or rush list.

Meganobs in trukks, small unit sizes for MANZ missiles I think is something also very viable. With a warboss and those 2+ armour saves mob rule and the S4 explosion aren't too much to be worried about. combination of trukk boys, MANz missiles and some bikers imo is still a strong setup

Solar Shock wrote:

12 boys is what roughly 72 pts with extras and a trukk, whats that less than 120 pts?

Without a nob yes, but i'm not sure i want to field them without one...

Pulls up the cost to around 150

 Billagio wrote:
A mob of Boyz hitting most things on 3s though is beautiful thing. Is it confirmed that bosses can take waaagh banners?

The lucky stikk is a waaagh banner. You don't even need to buy them separately. It's basically an auto-take relic. 2+ re-rollable armour on a megaboss, re-rollable to-wound for any 's with the PK, or try for a rend/ID with the 'eadwomper, and have a good chance of converting attacks to hits (3+ re-roll). Just stop if you flub a couple dice, it's all going to be 2+ or 3+. I believe Mel said it was only 5 points more than a regular waaaagh banner too.

The warboss got a general durability nerf, but he's going to go beast mode as a hidden beatstikk, and be dirt cheap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vapordrago88 wrote:

Now the trukk costs 5 points less wich covers the mandatory boarding plank (still 5pts right?), basically they cost the same,

When the rules were being leaked to us, I think I remember it being said the boarding plank was 15 points. However, I may be mistaken.

I just dont see anyone shooting at trukk boys when they have things like MAN Z en thein truks or BWs... seriously people are going to be having a hard time deciding what to shoot at in the one turn they get ti shoot with

 Toburk wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
A mob of Boyz hitting most things on 3s though is beautiful thing. Is it confirmed that bosses can take waaagh banners?

The lucky stikk is a waaagh banner. You don't even need to buy them separately. It's basically an auto-take relic. 2+ re-rollable armour on a megaboss, re-rollable to-wound for any 's with the PK, or try for a rend/ID with the 'eadwomper, and have a good chance of converting attacks to hits (3+ re-roll). Just stop if you flub a couple dice, it's all going to be 2+ or 3+. I believe Mel said it was only 5 points more than a regular waaaagh banner too.

The warboss got a general durability nerf, but he's going to go beast mode as a hidden beatstikk, and be dirt cheap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vapordrago88 wrote:

Now the trukk costs 5 points less wich covers the mandatory boarding plank (still 5pts right?), basically they cost the same,

When the rules were being leaked to us, I think I remember it being said the boarding plank was 15 points. However, I may be mistaken.

But the Stikk and da Choppa are both Relics. And you can only include ONE PER ARMY as Melcavuk has stated on the other and waaaaagh'ly longer thread.

BooBoo wrote:
But the Stikk and da Choppa are both Relics. And you can only include ONE PER ARMY as Melcavuk has stated on the other and waaaaagh'ly longer thread.

I think it means that we can only include ONE OF EACH RELIC PER ARMY, and not ONE RELIC PER ARMY. At least, that's what I've gotten from it.

It's one of each relic per army...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Think I'm going to make a BW wall with looted wagons on the flanks and a unit of bikers with KFF mek/painboy hidden in the vehicular bubble. Burnas in one wagon, boyz in two others, with MANz missiles in trukks. Lootas and maybe grotz sit in backfield on objectives/providing supportive fire, reserved bommer and maybe some buggies if I manage to fit it in.

How are people feeling about the mini-Meks? Are they there to make our transports more durable? Should you just take them for killsaws?

Another problem with "Da Lucky Stikk" is that:

"if 3 of these rerolls fail in a single turn the model is removed"

A warboss has 4 attacks, and will usuall hit on 3+
So, 1.33 attack will fail and we might want to re-roll
After the reroll, we have 0.44 re-roll failed and 3.56 hits

Then the to Wound rolls. Let's say the Warboss wounds on 3+ on average (we may use him to fight high T models, but we will surely give him PK or some BC)
3.56 hits gives 2.37 wounds and 1.19 fails
if we decide to re-roll, that gives 0.40 failed re-roll

So that's about 0.84 failed re-rolls, on average.

In the opponent's sub-phase, the Warboss will have a few Save to roll, a small fraction of which will fail and may need re-roll.

What I'm saying is that it may not be that rare to fail 3 re-roll if you decide to re-roll everything.


Also, the Lukky Stikk was *NOT* listed as a Waaagh Banner from what I can read in the "rumors thread" ... so, could we please have confirmation?

Than don't use the relic like that. Only use it for rerolling your 2+ saves and never use it after the second fail unless it's life or death. Makes it a zero risk item.

Maybe use it for hit/wound when at the btm of a turn if you're not going to take another save before the fail counter resets.

Did a quick simulation: just taking into account rolls to Hit (on 3+) and rolls to Wound (on 3+), with 4 attacks, you end up with at least 3 failed re-rolls 2.6% of the time

If you're facing a tougher opponent (hit on 4+, wound on 4+), this happens almost 19% of the time (and 5% of the time just after you re-roll the failed to Hit)

what about the WS+1 though?
can anyone confirm?