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 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So the unit did not move with the vehicle?

The unit counts as having moved, they did not move.

If you claim they moved, then I assume you will imit the vehicle to 6" moves when redeploying, and at all other times?

The vehicle moved, the unit inside moves with the vehicle.

Scout redeploying is not movement. Period. It was not movement in 6th, it's not movement in 7th. you just redeploy the unit, either a vehicle, unit, whatever 6-12" depending on it's type. The problem comes when you are permited to redeploy a transport. It can be redeployed 12" as it's a vehicle (tank, skimmer etc. discluding walkers). So if the unit inside is also scout redeploying, it should prohibit the transport from scouting more than 6". This does not happen in the rules, so the unit inside the transport is not in fact scout redeploying. However it can't then disembark from the scout redeployed vehicle as an aditional scout redeployment as prohibited by the rules. There is no mention it could not assault as the vehicle did the scout redeployment, not the unit inside.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So the unit did not move with the vehicle?

The unit counts as having moved, they did not move.

If you claim they moved, then I assume you will imit the vehicle to 6" moves when redeploying, and at all other times?

The vehicle moved, the unit inside moves with the vehicle.

Citation required.
The vehicle moved. The embarked unit stays embarked.

They stay embarked and go where the vehicle goes...

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So the unit did not move with the vehicle?

The unit counts as having moved, they did not move.

If you claim they moved, then I assume you will imit the vehicle to 6" moves when redeploying, and at all other times?

The vehicle moved, the unit inside moves with the vehicle.

Citation required.
The vehicle moved. The embarked unit stays embarked.

They stay embarked and go where the vehicle goes...

Which doesn't mean that they used the Scout redeploy at all.
In fact they're forbidden from disembarking during said redeploy and therefore can't use it.

rigeld2 wrote:
in fact they're forbidden from disembarking during said redeploy and therefore can't use it.

Not true. the fact that they can not disembark has no bearing on if they have re-deployed.

they are not in the same location on the battlefield then they have re-deployed.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
in fact they're forbidden from disembarking during said redeploy and therefore can't use it.

Not true. the fact that they can not disembark has no bearing on if they have re-deployed.

they are not in the same location on the battlefield then they have re-deployed.

They aren't on the battlefield at all. They're embarked. They have not redeployed - they deployed inside the vehicle and haven't (cannot) change that deployment.

So if a psyker is embarked he is not on the Battlefield/tabletop?

Incorrect...

"Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop" (The psychic phase section, generate warp charge sub-section).

"Psykers embarked on Transports still generate their normal number of Warp Charge points."(The psychic phase section, Psykers and transports sub-section).

 DeathReaper wrote:
So if a psyker is embarked he is not on the Battlefield/tabletop?

Incorrect...

"Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop" (The psychic phase section, generate warp charge sub-section).

"Psykers embarked on Transports still generate their normal number of Warp Charge points."(The psychic phase section, Psykers and transports sub-section).

/Golfclap, you just proved that psykers have an exeption to the rules that even if embarked on transports they generate warp charge. Bravo. Now this does not prove a thing about the question at hand that a unit that is inside a transport that redeploys by scout redeployment, is in fact also scout redeploying. How about transports that have the scout rule built in. A unit in them does not necessarily have the scout rule and the transport does not give the rule to the unit. How can the unit inside then be redeployed with the transport? It could not do a scout redeployment as the vehicle does not confer it to the passengers. There is actually a line about this in the scout rule if you had bothered reading it. "Note that a Transport with this special rule does not lose it if a unit without this special rule is embarked upon it." This clearly states that a unit not capable of doing a scout redeployment can be inside a vehicle able to scout redeploy.

A scout move is not movement. It is redeployment. You are redeploying your transport alongside the unit embarked inside within 6" of their original position. Both have made a scout move as a result of this.

sonicaucie wrote:
A scout move is not movement. It is redeployment. You are redeploying your transport alongside the unit embarked inside within 6" of their original position. Both have made a scout move as a result of this.

Where does this read in the rules? There is no mention anywhere that the unit inside has to make a scout redeployment, or that while the transport is being occupied, it can't move more than 6". You are not presenting any concrete rules that support your view.

Eihnlazer wrote:
From a rules standpoint, the unit is not "on the battlefield" while embarked.

While embarked, units have no access to the battlefield without the use of firepoints.

Some people then gather that since they aren't techniqually on the table, that if the transport makes a scout redeploy, the unit itself has done nothing.

Im personally up on the fence about it. I know that the unit itself has not made a scout redeploy, though it was definately part of a scout redeploy otherwise it would have been forced to remain at its starting position in the deploy zone.

They are on the table, they are considered on the table for more than firepoints.

A Mechanic-type unit is on the table and in base contact with the Vehicle it is in(and may be "in Base contact" with another vehicle when the hulls are touching).

A KFF Mek or PFG DA character in a transport has the range of their items determined from the hull of the transport.

 DeathReaper wrote:
So if a psyker is embarked he is not on the Battlefield/tabletop?

Incorrect...

"Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop" (The psychic phase section, generate warp charge sub-section).

"Psykers embarked on Transports still generate their normal number of Warp Charge points."(The psychic phase section, Psykers and transports sub-section).

So a statement that they still generate their charges while embarked means that everyone embarked is on the table?
When the rules for embarked require you to remove the models from the table?

Could you have cited a less relevant rule? I mean, I could cite the shooting rules which, according to your argument, allow me to fire at the embarked unit. Yes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
From a rules standpoint, the unit is not "on the battlefield" while embarked.

While embarked, units have no access to the battlefield without the use of firepoints.

Some people then gather that since they aren't techniqually on the table, that if the transport makes a scout redeploy, the unit itself has done nothing.

Im personally up on the fence about it. I know that the unit itself has not made a scout redeploy, though it was definately part of a scout redeploy otherwise it would have been forced to remain at its starting position in the deploy zone.

They are on the table, they are considered on the table for more than firepoints.

A Mechanic-type unit is on the table and in base contact with the Vehicle it is in(and may be "in Base contact" with another vehicle when the hulls are touching).

A KFF Mek or PFG DA character in a transport has the range of their items determined from the hull of the transport.

All of those things have a specific allowance to work that way.
You're taking that specific allowance an attempting to extend it to generic permission.
That's not how it works.

rigeld2 wrote:

So a statement that they still generate their charges while embarked means that everyone embarked is on the table?
When the rules for embarked require you to remove the models from the table?

Could you have cited a less relevant rule? I mean, I could cite the shooting rules which, according to your argument, allow me to fire at the embarked unit. Yes?

you could if you somehow had Line of Sight to the embarked unit...

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

So a statement that they still generate their charges while embarked means that everyone embarked is on the table?
When the rules for embarked require you to remove the models from the table?

Could you have cited a less relevant rule? I mean, I could cite the shooting rules which, according to your argument, allow me to fire at the embarked unit. Yes?

you could if you somehow had Line of Sight to the embarked unit...

So barrage and Impaler Cannons can shoot embarked units?
Awesome.

Care to respond to the rest of the post?

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

So a statement that they still generate their charges while embarked means that everyone embarked is on the table?
When the rules for embarked require you to remove the models from the table?

Could you have cited a less relevant rule? I mean, I could cite the shooting rules which, according to your argument, allow me to fire at the embarked unit. Yes?

you could if you somehow had Line of Sight to the embarked unit...

So barrage and Impaler Cannons can shoot embarked units?
Awesome.

Care to respond to the rest of the post?

Nope, the unit is out of LoS so no wounds can be applied to them.

Also you count hits on units by counting the models under the marker...

but shooting does not have anything to do with transports and embarked units that have scouted...

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

So a statement that they still generate their charges while embarked means that everyone embarked is on the table?
When the rules for embarked require you to remove the models from the table?

Could you have cited a less relevant rule? I mean, I could cite the shooting rules which, according to your argument, allow me to fire at the embarked unit. Yes?

you could if you somehow had Line of Sight to the embarked unit...

So barrage and Impaler Cannons can shoot embarked units?
Awesome.

Care to respond to the rest of the post?

Nope, the unit is out of LoS so no wounds can be applied to them.

Also you count hits on units by counting the models under the marker...

but shooting does not have anything to do with transports and embarked units that have scouted...

And again you dodge the point, even though I know you're smart enough to have seen it.
If you'd actually address the point - that according to the rules embarked units are not on the table except for specific allowances - that'd be great.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

So a statement that they still generate their charges while embarked means that everyone embarked is on the table?
When the rules for embarked require you to remove the models from the table?

Could you have cited a less relevant rule? I mean, I could cite the shooting rules which, according to your argument, allow me to fire at the embarked unit. Yes?

you could if you somehow had Line of Sight to the embarked unit...

So barrage and Impaler Cannons can shoot embarked units?
Awesome.

Care to respond to the rest of the post?

Nope, the unit is out of LoS so no wounds can be applied to them.

Also you count hits on units by counting the models under the marker...

but shooting does not have anything to do with transports and embarked units that have scouted...

So the TAU can shoot inside transports with smart missiles that do not require LoS? cool...

But as it stands there is no RAW disallowing units from charging on their first turn if disembarking from a assault transport that has scouted before the first turn.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So the unit did not move with the vehicle?

The unit counts as having moved, they did not move.

If you claim they moved, then I assume you will imit the vehicle to 6" moves when redeploying, and at all other times?

The vehicle moved, the unit inside moves with the vehicle.

Citation required.
The vehicle moved. The embarked unit stays embarked.

They stay embarked and go where the vehicle goes...

So they limit the vehicle to a 6" redeploy then?

given you are claiming they are also using Scout, and they are Infantry, they must limit the vehicle to a 6" move.

Now, prove your claim or retract it - so far nothing but a lack of rules. I have pointed to the unit using the Scout rule. Prove the unit inside is ALSO using the Scout rule. Page and graph

BRB: "If a unit with this special rule is deployed inside a Dedicated Transport, it confers the Scout special rule to the Transport (though a disembarkation cannot be performed as part of the redeployment). Note that a Transport with this special rule does not lose it if a unit without this special rule is embarked upon it. Having Scout also confers the Outflank special rule to units of Scouts that are kept as Reserves. "

So basically the vehicle can be redeployed as a Scout if it was deployed with a Scout unit inside.

The question is: is the unit inside the transport redeployed as well or not ?

I think the answer is pretty straightforward:

Without any other clarification, a redeploy is just like a deploy, and the unit will have to be redeployed inside the transport as the transport is redeployed.

This was a discussion in 6th, and people apparently are still in two minds, the thing that's missing from Scout is any sort of clarification on if the embarked unit Scounts along with the transport. In contrast to other similar rules which state the following (paraphrased).

- Deployment: May embark a unit in a transport inside your deployment zone
-Arriving from reserves: Can embark a unit in reserves, and the unit arrives with the transport.
-Arriving via deeps strike: the Embarked unit arrives with the transport
-Infiltrate: A embarked unit may infiltrate with their transport
-Outflank: a unit embarked may outflank along with the transport.

- Scout: Transport unit may redeploy and the embarked unit ???

I would argue that as the only reason the DT can scout move is to carry a unit with the scout rule onboard, therefore the unit inside also is making the scout redeployment.

How does that then affect their ability to assault? With assault vehicle, it shouldn't matter as the vehicle gives them a permission to do so.

Naw wrote:
I would argue that as the only reason the DT can scout move is to carry a unit with the scout rule onboard, therefore the unit inside also is making the scout redeployment.

How does that then affect their ability to assault? With assault vehicle, it shouldn't matter as the vehicle gives them a permission to do so.

BRB: "If a unit with this special rule is deployed inside a Dedicated Transport, it confers the Scout special rule to the Transport (though a disembarkation cannot be performed as part of the redeployment). Note that a Transport with this special rule does not lose it if a unit without this special rule is embarked upon it. Having Scout also confers the Outflank special rule to units of Scouts that are kept as Reserves. "
There's no arguing there.
However the DT can only scout move without disembarking, and will therefore scout redeploy only if it contains the Scout unit on deploy.

Imo it's clear cut:

Unit with Scout Deploys in its DT > DT gains Scout
DT Scout Redeploys without disembark > DT AND unit go back to reserve
DT Scout Redeploys without Disembark > DT AND unit Scout Redeploy

Otherwise, the unit would still be in reserve / off-table, and the DT can just scout redeploy alone... not really useful.

Naw wrote:
I would argue that as the only reason the DT can scout move is to carry a unit with the scout rule onboard, therefore the unit inside also is making the scout redeployment.

How does that then affect their ability to assault? With assault vehicle, it shouldn't matter as the vehicle gives them a permission to do so.

Except that isnt how permissions work. You have permission to assault despite disembarking from a vehicle, but are prohibited from assaulting due to having made a Scout move. Permission granted, but permission denied. Or would you claim a unit arriving frmo reserve inside an Assault Vehicle could still assault that turn?

(ANd yes, this is exactly analogous, before you claim it isnt relevant)

The unit grants the DT "Scout" rule. That does not require the unit is also making a Scout redeployment. Again, if this is your claim, then prove why you are allowed to still move 12", when the Infantry unit is restricting you to 6"

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Naw wrote:
I would argue that as the only reason the DT can scout move is to carry a unit with the scout rule onboard, therefore the unit inside also is making the scout redeployment.

How does that then affect their ability to assault? With assault vehicle, it shouldn't matter as the vehicle gives them a permission to do so.

Except that isnt how permissions work. You have permission to assault despite disembarking from a vehicle, but are prohibited from assaulting due to having made a Scout move. Permission granted, but permission denied. Or would you claim a unit arriving frmo reserve inside an Assault Vehicle could still assault that turn?

(ANd yes, this is exactly analogous, before you claim it isnt relevant)

The unit grants the DT "Scout" rule. That does not require the unit is also making a Scout redeployment. Again, if this is your claim, then prove why you are allowed to still move 12", when the Infantry unit is restricting you to 6"

Just double checking but this is the "Scouting Land Raider with Termies does not allow the terminators to charge turn 1.1" group right?

Yes, that is my claim. It is based on the fact that the scouts must be embarked in order to even allow the redeployment. They can move 12" because they are embarked.

I don't see support for assaulting the way the OP wanted. If he went 2nd, then yes.

Naw wrote:
Yes, that is my claim. It is based on the fact that the scouts must be embarked in order to even allow the redeployment. They can move 12" because they are embarked.

I don't see support for assaulting the way the OP wanted. If he went 2nd, then yes.

So you can assault from an assault vehicle that turned up from reserves?

You havent updated to 7th yet. It is now a complete game turn prohibition on charging, if you performed a Scout redeployment.

So the Scouts are also making a redeployment, and are indisputably Infantry. Explain how Infantry is permitted to make a 12" redeployment when the rules clearly state 6". Page and para.

 DeathReaper wrote:
So if a psyker is embarked he is not on the Battlefield/tabletop?

Incorrect...

"Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop" (The psychic phase section, generate warp charge sub-section).

"Psykers embarked on Transports still generate their normal number of Warp Charge points."(The psychic phase section, Psykers and transports sub-section).

You left out this:
7th ed rules, page 80, Transports, Embarking, first paragraph, last sentence:
"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for it's shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."

Just a bit more proof that they are still 'on the battlefield', even when embarked.

 don_mondo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So if a psyker is embarked he is not on the Battlefield/tabletop?

Incorrect...

"Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop" (The psychic phase section, generate warp charge sub-section).

"Psykers embarked on Transports still generate their normal number of Warp Charge points."(The psychic phase section, Psykers and transports sub-section).

You left out this:
7th ed rules, page 80, Transports, Embarking, first paragraph, last sentence:
"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for it's shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."

Just a bit more proof that they are still 'on the battlefield', even when embarked.

... for a specific purpose.
You keep quoting things that are exceptions to the general rule. Show me where they're on the battlefield while embarked, in general.

I just did.

 don_mondo wrote:
I just did.

No, you demonstrably did not. You showed that if you need to measure to the embarked unit (except for shooting) you measure to the vehicle's hull.
That rule does not say that the models are on the battlefield at all. If they were, why would you measure to the vehicle's hull? Wouldn't you just measure to the models?

BRB: "If a unit with this special rule is deployed inside a Dedicated Transport, it confers the Scout special rule to the Transport (though a disembarkation cannot be performed as part of the redeployment). Note that a Transport with this special rule does not lose it if a unit without this special rule is embarked upon it. Having Scout also confers the Outflank special rule to units of Scouts that are kept as Reserves. "


Of note here, if the unit is not redeploying why does the rule here say that it is? If disembarkation cannot be performed as part of the redeployment, that implies the unit (which is what would disembark) is redeploying, but is denied the ability to disembark while doing so.

This being the case, the unit has scout redeployed, and cannot assault on player turn 1.